Sea Based Cities

[Darsnan]

Unless your genetic engineering can turn your citizens into Gungans, ocean cities for human colonist are pretty silly.

In the original SMAC the air was unbreathable, so all colonists needed environmental suits (or armor), and all cities were sealed biomes against the toxic atmosphere. The only difference between this and cities underneath the waves is the atmospheric pressure in the surrounding environment: both need sealed environments for their cities, and both need environmental suits (or armor) for individuals to venture outside the sealed biomes.

Or to put it slightly differently, if there is a reason to go to a planet (resources, artifacts, strategic position), then Man will find a way to colonize it.

D

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There's really no way to iterate on that idea that makes it less ridiculous without drastically reducing the scope of it. Underwater population centers are an idea of fantasy, not science fiction.

Underwater pop centers are just as sci fi as pop centers where you can't breathe the atmosphere.
Ninjad

For game reasons it makes sense to not have them (messes with map... just like units being unable to cross mountains no matter how late in the game)...of course you could have 'waves of colonization' ... Mid techs allow coastal cities, late techss allow ocean ones.
However, hopefully they will have stations deep in the ocean far from land.

 

[beetle]

In the original SMAC the air was unbreathable, so all colonists needed environmental suits (or armor), and all cities were sealed biomes against the toxic atmosphere.

Where do you infer this from? Certainly terraforming was a big element of the game, but the habitability of Planet was, as I recall, a big factor in it being the first target for colonization. Forests were OP, and it was critical that you could plant them, but there were some from start, not to mention the very fertile jungle areas. Sure, the fungus was fairly deadly, but characterizing the air as unbreathable and the atmosphere as toxic is not correct. I recall a dialog about respirators being necessary for high altitudes or activity (like warfare). It really struck me more about comfort, not necessity. Also, there was no implication that the sea colonies were underwater so much as floating.

 

[Napoleon_IV]

Wow, there are some really interesting arguements both for and against having sea based cities in the game. I personally am leaning towards wanting them in as long as there is some sort of incentive to actually go out to sea (like rare resources, etc) as this would make oceans and navies relevant on pangaea style maps. Im sure city spam won't be as much of a problem given that both civ IV or V had systems in place that discouraged this kind of game play and im sure these lessons will carry over into this game as well.. the developers are making navies and sea based aliens a big part of the game given that art exists for naval units right throughout the game so here's hoping they do something interesting..

 

[Snownova]

Where do you infer this from? Certainly terraforming was a big element of the game, but the habitability of Planet was, as I recall, a big factor in it being the first target for colonization. Forests were OP, and it was critical that you could plant them, but there were some from start, not to mention the very fertile jungle areas. Sure, the fungus was fairly deadly, but characterizing the air as unbreathable and the atmosphere as toxic is not correct. I recall a dialog about respirators being necessary for high altitudes or activity (like warfare). It really struck me more about comfort, not necessity. Also, there was no implication that the sea colonies were underwater so much as floating.

It was in the manual and referenced in several in-game texts. The air wasn't toxic per say, but the percentage nitrogen was higher than on earth as well as a higher air pressure. At planetfall, humans without breathers would experience a sensation similar to the effects of laughing gas, and after several minutes they would be rendered unconscious. Full environment suits were unnecessary, simple breathing masks were sufficient.

 

[GeoModder]

Where do you infer this from? Certainly terraforming was a big element of the game, but the habitability of Planet was, as I recall, a big factor in it being the first target for colonization. Forests were OP, and it was critical that you could plant them, but there were some from start, not to mention the very fertile jungle areas. Sure, the fungus was fairly deadly, but characterizing the air as unbreathable and the atmosphere as toxic is not correct. I recall a dialog about respirators being necessary for high altitudes or activity (like warfare). It really struck me more about comfort, not necessity. Also, there was no implication that the sea colonies were underwater so much as floating.

The atmosphere of Planet in SMAC(X) was unbreathable due to the percentage of both nitrogen and oxygen, combined with the higher atmospheric pressure because of the higher gravity.
IIRC from canon info, about 90% nitrogen, 8% oxygen with the rest trace elements and carbon dioxide. Because of the combination of increased nitrogen pressure on the lungs when breathing, and lack of sufficient oxygen, people get nitrogen narcosis (the bends), which can be quite deadly.

EDIT: ouch, ninja'd.

 

[Darsnan]

Where do you infer this from? .

Here is the relevant text from the Ecological Engineering quote in the blurbsx.txt file:

The prevalence of anoxic environments rich in organic material,
combined with the presence of nitrated compounds has
led to an astonishing variety of underground organisms which live in
the absence of oxygen and "breathe" nitrate. .

So the atmosphere is not toxic per se (my bad in mis-remembering the quote), but it does require a sealed biome for humans to survive in, whether it be a pressure suit or habitation dome.


D

 

[beetle]

So the atmosphere is not toxic per se (my bad in mis-remembering the quote), but it does require a sealed biome for humans to survive in, whether it be a pressure suit or habitation dome.

My bad in mis-remembering the atmosphere as less of an obstacle than how it was presented, but even with the quotes, there is not an implication that a pressure suit or biome is essential. (Also, the habitation dome per se was unlocked late in the game tech.) The characterization is more about thriving, not surviving. Yes, the habitats were sealed, but the analog is much more like a modern building in a hot jungle climate — not sealed like a space ship or an undersea city would require.

 

[GeoModder]

My bad in mis-remembering the atmosphere as less of an obstacle than how it was presented, but even with the quotes, there is not an implication that a pressure suit or biome is essential. (Also, the habitation dome per se was unlocked late in the game tech.) The characterization is more about thriving, not surviving. Yes, the habitats were sealed, but the analog is much more like a modern building in a hot jungle climate — not sealed like a space ship or an undersea city would require.

I think Darsnan means the pressure dome, unlocked by IIRC Doctrine: Flexibility, an early tech.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

My bad in mis-remembering the atmosphere as less of an obstacle than how it was presented, but even with the quotes, there is not an implication that a pressure suit or biome is essential. (Also, the habitation dome per se was unlocked late in the game tech.) The characterization is more about thriving, not surviving. Yes, the habitats were sealed, but the analog is much more like a modern building in a hot jungle climate — not sealed like a space ship or an undersea city would require.

Well 3 things in CivBE

1. The ship lands ~350-400 years after being launched (2600 AD), so they are capable of long-term survival in hostile circumstances
2. "Habitation" is the tech you start with
3. All the early units have sealed suits.. might just be armor, but it would be possible

The point is that if a good reason exists for a city there, they would/could put a city there.

Now most cities on Earth are in fairly habitable climates (no real Cities in Tundra/Snow type terrain or in non-coastal Desert)... areas where a food supply can be grown easily nearby (the original source of the city, which would then grow or not due to trade routes + nonfood resources.

Gameplay wise, it would probably Not be a good reason to have the whole planet be colonizable from the beginning of the game, and (for the sake of strategic terrain significance) having some be Noncolonizable the entire game might be worthwhile.

However, given that you will probably have the ability to Travel the entire globe (ie "Astronomy/Optics" tech would be very early) having a slowly expanding ability to Colonize the entire globe would be potentially interesting (particularly if Most Ocean tiles wouldn't even support the population working them)

 

[beetle]

Floating cities are more feasible than underwater cities, and the SMAC implementation had more going for it than not.

I think Darsnan means the pressure dome, unlocked by IIRC Doctrine: Flexibility, an early tech.

That sounds right, and still works for the points I am trying to make.

 

[poom3619]

My bad in mis-remembering the atmosphere as less of an obstacle than how it was presented, but even with the quotes, there is not an implication that a pressure suit or biome is essential. (Also, the habitation dome per se was unlocked late in the game tech.) The characterization is more about thriving, not surviving. Yes, the habitats were sealed, but the analog is much more like a modern building in a hot jungle climate — not sealed like a space ship or an undersea city would require.

Planet's atmosphere, though a gasping death to humans and most animals, is paradise for Earth plants. The high nitrate content of the soil and the rich yellow sunlight bring an abundant harvest wherever adjustments can be made for the unusual soil conditions.

- Lady Deirdre Skye, "A Comparative Biology of Planet"

 

[gja102]

I seem to remember some of the SMAC pre-release blurb saying that an end goal of the terraforming game would be to create a breathable atmosphere. Obviously never made the final cut, though.

I used to hate sea city spam. I once modded my game to prevent AI sea colonisation. Oceans are too flat and featureless to be an interesting thing to fight over.

 

[beetle]

Okay, the SMAC planet atmosphere was not survivable for long.

Because of the combination of increased nitrogen pressure on the lungs when breathing, and lack of sufficient oxygen, people get nitrogen narcosis (the bends), which can be quite deadly.

From the third interlude (emphasis added):

In the darkness, something goes >pop<, and you are lying on your
back on a hillside among the soft orange and purple tendrils of a
vast fungal forest. The sound of running water gurgles
loudly in the vicinity of your right ear, but you cannot identify the
source. Panic rises briefly in your throat as you realize
[B]you have no filter mask or oxygen tank[/B], dressed only in your worksuit,
but breath comes easily and you detect no signs of nitrogen narcosis.
From somewhere, a voice seems to whisper "earth$NAME3," but perhaps
it is only the breeze.

So no pressure suits, but breathable only for minutes (maybe a few hours). Because it will intrude upon my willing suspense of disbelief, I am hoping that air on the CivBE planet is not much deadlier than that. (The armor on the unit graphics could be for flavor as much as anything else.)

 

[poom3619]

Okay, the SMAC planet atmosphere was not survivable for long.


So no pressure suits, but breathable only for minutes (maybe a few hours). Because it will intrude upon my willing suspense of disbelief, I am hoping that air on the CivBE planet is not much deadlier than that. (The armor on the unit graphics could be for flavor as much as anything else.)

Oh dear, my friend. It's clear you forgot most of the story in SMAC if you ever played it at all. The interlude you're talking about is when the leader having a dream that result from the planet try to contact him. It's just one-third of the full interlude and you take it out of context.

  In the darkness, something goes >pop<, and you are lying on your
back on a hillside among the soft orange and purple tendrils of a
vast fungal forest. The sound of running water gurgles
loudly in the vicinity of your right ear, but you cannot identify the
source. Panic rises briefly in your throat as you realize
you have no filter mask or oxygen tank, dressed only in your worksuit,
but breath comes easily and you detect no signs of nitrogen narcosis.
From somewhere, a voice seems to whisper "earthmiriam," but perhaps
it is only the breeze.
  Time passes, and you notice that the fungus is growing perceptibly,
the spores gently nudging you as they slowly stretch and twist. Fungal
bloom! Panic returns full force and you struggle to free yourself from
the encroaching tendrils. "earthmiriam!" The voice again, more insistent.
The last tendrils break and you are free and dashing across an endless
field of purple and orange. "earthmiriam! beware!" from close behind you
and then . . . >discontinuity<
  In the darkness, something goes >pop<, and you are lying on your
back in the gene therapy tank, the gauzy restraints slowly retracting.
The remaining fluid in the tank gurgles away through the tube behind
your head and you slowly sit up. Four weeks of your life, once every ten
years, you spend in this state. A small price to pay for immortality, or
something close to it. A half-remembered dream tugs at you as you pull on
a clean worksuit, but you cannot recapture it.

PS. This interlude is what you got when playing as Miriam.

 

[GeoModder]

So no pressure suits, but breathable only for minutes (maybe a few hours). Because it will intrude upon my willing suspense of disbelief, I am hoping that air on the CivBE planet is not much deadlier than that. (The armor on the unit graphics could be for flavor as much as anything else.)

I found the canon file about Planet's conditions: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planets

As far as I can see, the suits level 1 soldiers use are almost NASA lookalike space suits.
Of course this could be handwaived by saying the colonists don't have made the effort yet to make more appropriate equipment to walk unrestricted on their new world, but it does mean the atmosphere or micro-organisms is/are sufficiently unhealthy to humans.
Which does raise the question how Miasma affects suited soldiers...

 

[GeoModder]

PS. This interlude is what you got when playing as Miriam.

Every leader gets this interlude when the appropriate technology is researched.

 

[poom3619]

Every leader gets this interlude when the appropriate technology is researched.

I was trying to say I replaced %NAME3 with "miriam" because this is an Miriam's personalized version of this interlude. Seems like my English isn't in the best shape now.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I found the canon file about Planet's conditions: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planets

As far as I can see, the suits level 1 soldiers use are almost NASA lookalike space suits.
Of course this could be handwaived by saying the colonists don't have made the effort yet to make more appropriate equipment to walk unrestricted on their new world, but it does mean the atmosphere or micro-organisms is/are sufficiently unhealthy to humans.
Which does raise the question how Miasma affects suited soldiers...

I assumed the miasma was actually slightly corrosive (given that it influences ALL types of units ... Tanks, Supremacy units, etc.)

 

[Darsnan]

Wow, there are some really interesting arguements both for and against having sea based cities in the game.

+1 this

Overall I can understand and respect the arguments in regards to why sea bases shouldn't be included in the game, however I do disagree and believe they should be in, as they are "in the spirit of SMAC", and as I'd stated previously they "make sense" to me personally in regards to the colonization of waterworlds.

It will be interesting to see if sea bases are included in the game or not, and if they aren't what rationale is given (and I hope the word "streamlining" isn't part of that explanation).

D