Seafaring PBEM

[rcoutme]

For clarity sake: all values are given in attack/defense/movement
ironclad 6/7/6 ignore sea ************* Battleship 19/13/10 ignore both
transport 1/2/12 ignore sea and coast ***Aegis Cruiser 16/11/14 ignore both
carrier 1/8/14 ignore sea *************Nuke Sub 9/5/10 ignore both
submarine 9/5/8 ignore both ********** Cruiser 16/11/12 ignore both
Destroyer 13/9/16 ignore both ******** Longship 3/2/10 ignore sea

The carrier seems to be both too weak on defense and too slow on coast. In the standard game the carrier has the same defensive value as a destroyer (i.e. 8) but in these adjustments, the carrier was left 'as is' while all other IA combat ships had increases to attack and defense.

 

[LouLong]

SOL forgot to add bombardment (remember it was just a draft), and I am gonna make it stronger (5/ 4 ?)

Vikings indeed have an double advantage. Maybe we can give them only the seafaring trait then. Forgot the can sink for the longship.

Carrier : forgot to add the defense point, + 2 is possible but remember they are quite fragile by comparison to cruisers. On the other hand I think they are deep water vessels so I think they could have a penalty on coasts (but that is just an idea, easy to erase).

Transport : I did not change their stats because they are not naval power at all but merely transport. What u think ?

Ironclad is a bit too strong. I made it slow but maybe one less in attack or defense would make both SOL and ironclads useful for that era.

 

[rcoutme]

I would agree with a 9 defense for carrier. I still think it should have the same movement as cruisers (the historical reality was that carriers and cruisers were hand in hand and the game also set them with the same mp).

As for the ocean having 1 food and 1 commerce, it is not a question of balance. When a random map is created, no ocean tiles are useable. I was suggesting that ocean be given these so that the "random person" creating the map does not have to worry about creating extra islands and then surrounding them with sea. The RMG would automatically surround all coastline with sea, but when extra land is added, coast is added, but not sea.

5/4 for SOL is ok with me. The only point I would make is that the English UU would no longer dominate the seas. IIRC it is much faster to Military Tradition than it is to Magnetism. Maybe it would make more sense to add caravels to Education and galleons and frigates to navigation or something like that.

Otherwise, since this is a mod for water, Military Tradition could require Magnetism along with Metallurgy. I'm not sure how to balance this out.

 

[akots]

... Vikings indeed have an double advantage. Maybe we can give them only the seafaring trait then. Forgot the can sink for the longship. ...

Still don't see any advantage. Zerks must be built from scratch as well as longships IIRC and both are very expensive. Also, other civs have their own unique units which can be argued to be too powerful as well. It would be fine only if we have only a single trait (seafaring) for all other civilizations as well. I'd prefer some other type of handicap like starting without worker.

@Loulong: Otherwise, looks nice.

@rcoutme: Got your point about ocean finally. But don't think messing up with tech tree is a good idea. Military Tradition does not help with Naval combat and there are no "Fleets" (naval armies). Also, cavalry does not run over the water... IMHO, it is fine like it is now.

 

[rcoutme]

Still don't see any advantage. Zerks must be built from scratch as well as longships IIRC and both are very expensive. ...

@rcoutme: Got your point about ocean finally. But don't think messing up with tech tree is a good idea. Military Tradition does not help with Naval combat and there are no "Fleets" (naval armies). Also, cavalry does not run over the water... IMHO, it is fine like it is now.

Berserks are upgrade from archer. They are expensive (cost = 70), they are the same cost as knights. They are a replacement for longbow which only costs 40 shields. I am not arguing that berserks should not exist. However, their first rival is cavalry (cost of 80) and the first unit with same defense as the Berserk attack is in the next age (rifleman has 4/6/1 stats and also costs 80). I am only suggesting that one civ having two UU's is a little unbalancing.

As for the tech tree, I was mentioning that Ship of the Line units were added into the Military Tradition tech. These units are better than the English unit, Man-O-War, yet are on a tech line that is easier to acheive than Magnetism. If SOL's are going to be added, then they should probably be put in Magnetism and frigates, galleons, etc. should be in an earlier tech. Otherwise, the English player (in effect) loses any benefit whatsoever to his UU.

BTW, I am willing to go with whatever is decided, I was just pointing these things out. What the final decision is, is fine with me.

 

[LouLong]

Carrack gets a defensive bombardment in exchange for scandinavian longship.

Everybody got what he wanted, now ? lol
(save for poor old Spain I mean !)

Sent the rules to Steph. He should create us a nice map (half random accepted half modifs,...).

When I get it back we start. If there is an immediate pb we stop and can start again.

 

[akots]

Berserks are upgrade from archer. ...

... I was mentioning that Ship of the Line units were added into the Military Tradition tech. ...

OK, I did not know that. Then, only archers to build and saving cash.

Got the point about SotL. Dunno, whatever people decide. I've got my longships, that's all I care about.

Does Steph need the passwords to run the first turn? Or we start from BIQ?

 

[rcoutme]

Thanks LouLong. As I said, I will play whatever the scenario. I was only trying to let people know what was in the mod. BTW, what did you decide to do about SofL?

 

[LouLong]

Gave it more strength and bombarding.
Delayed some techs so that age of sails lasts longer.
The rest is in Steph's hands at the moment so I don't know, I am just waiting. I am just afraid he did not have the time to finish it before going on a business trip. That would delay the start to next week but then I am quite sure we would have a really interesting map for seafarers !

 

[LouLong]

We should have the map (and start) before the coming week-end.

 

[LouLong]

News.

One good. We start.
The other less good. For lack of time, Steph could not add SOL and longship and I don't want to play with the editor now that the map is made. Maybe another time.
Less flavor, less of an advantage for Akots, and a more limited Age of Sail progression :-(.
Other modifs are in.

Planning mail sent.

 

[LouLong]

Game started !

Turn 1 sent to EliitMees.

 

[EliitMees]

Turn 1 received, played and sent to Akots

 

[Rubberjello]

Just wishing bad luck to all my foes! May your ships be built out of wormwood, your navigators idiots, and your captains all buffoons!

 

[rcoutme]

Darn! RJ, you just named my actual strategy! I thought wormwood would be a good resource too...

Oh well, now I will just have to hire better captains and use some other type of wood (maybe umm....gopher wood! yeah! That's it!)

Hope to see you in the bottom of the oceans.

 

[akots]

Bottle with the game file of turn 1 set sail to dogboy. Since I don't know which direction it must go, just dropped it in the ocean.

 

[DogBoy]

Played and sent, however two things.

1. If this is the game maker's idea of a good start, I would hate to see his idea of a bad start. (maybe I'm just whining and everybody's looks like mine)

2. I'm the fourth person and it has taken 2 days to get to me. Is the game always going to be this slow? (hopefully it is just the first turn time zone mess up and will straighten out)

 

[rcoutme]

Played and sent to RJ. I am assuming, since no one mentioned different, that we are, in fact, playing raging barbarians, Monarchy (this is going to be critical for figuring on unhappiness), accelerated production (I know this is correct, since I already took turn 1), and a 100 x 100 map. What (approximately) was the % water please?

 

[Rubberjello]

1. If this is the game maker's idea of a good start, I would hate to see his idea of a bad start. (maybe I'm just whining and everybody's looks like mine)

Yeah! What HE said! I hate dry starts, and from what it looks like so far I'm on a tiny island with no water at all!

 

[LouLong]

Rcoutme : monarch level and restless barbarians as some said raging might be a bit too strong.

Otherwise many people seem unhappy about their locations. It does not surprise me that most don't have rivers on medium/small islands and IMHO accelerated production can counter-balance that.

Now if you feel really bad about your starting locations (kind of conside it impossible), we can always restart... but say so quickly because I have started the second turn. For infos : my start is real dry too.