Second Best Leader Trait?

[Silence101]

Well I am a big fan of Darius, who gets to have both Financial and Organized. I still can't decide if he's a better leader than Hannibal's Financial/Charismatic though. I suppose during wartime, Hannibal is better and during peace time Darius is better.

And yes, I'm making the implicit assumption that a CE is stronger than a SE.

Your assumption I take issue with. That's not always the case... in fact, I think it's usually not the case.

 

[Silence101]

I don't agree that running a CE means fewer great people since all of them should be generated in your gp farm anyhow, and naturally that should be a city that does not work cottages.. now if you don't build any wonders, I can see how other cities than 'the' GP farm generates GPs, but do you really get more? I would like to see the mathematics on that..

From my experience a hybrid economy works the best since each city has it's own unique terrain that is more or less suited for production growth and commerce, the most effective use of a city then is to design it according to its strengths.

I also don't agree with other posters stating that financial is nice for early research but does not give a long term benefit. I think financial is the strongest trait just because it's strongly beneficial for the whole duration of your game. Early extra commerce, and the bonus only grows as your empire grows. In contrast many traits that I love to play with for the comfort they give, like spiritual or creative, is not a great help at all stages of the game. Early on spiritual is almost useless whilst creative is great early on but less and less significant with time.

It's true that the best trait depends alot on what your playstyle is, the difficulty and so on, and I think several of the traits are very close (especially like I earlier said, financial, philosophical and charismatic), but if I have to choose one trait based on overall utility I pick financial for the reasons outlined above. It's never useless no matter what your current situation or strategy in a game is, even if the benefit is small, as when running a SE.

A couple things - first of all, I'm speaking in generalities... my main point is that everything is very circumstancial. Because an SE requires the use of speicialists providing GP points and a CE does not, an SE will "generally" return more great people. A GP farm is an SE/hybrid trait - and I usually run hybrids as well... there's nothing wrong with them.

As far as a traits "never being useless, even if the benefit is small", the same argument can be made for any trait. However, if the benefit is small, I have to wonder if you're really leveraging that trait.

EDIT: Back to my overall, main point - Financial is not a bad triat. I consider it to be a powerful, useful trait under the right circumstances. However, I do not believe it is the best trait.

 

[madscientist]

I also don't agree with other posters stating that financial is nice for early research but does not give a long term benefit. I think financial is the strongest trait just because it's strongly beneficial for the whole duration of your game. Early extra commerce, and the bonus only grows as your empire grows. In contrast many traits that I love to play with for the comfort they give, like spiritual or creative, is not a great help at all stages of the game. Early on spiritual is almost useless whilst creative is great early on but less and less significant with time.

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I guess my point is that the +1 commerce benefit has a lower effect as the game progresses. In the beginning of the game the financial trait can be giving you city 3-5 commerce or 30-50% of the worked tiles in the city screen. By the end of the game at most it can be 10-15 commerce but would account for perhaps 10% at best. The effect only increases per population size, whcih will generally open up more options like specialists.

SO perhaps a better phrasing is that the financial trait has less of an impact late in the game compared with early.

Similar to expansive, those +2 health are a joke early on but means a hell of alot when building coal powered factories.

 

[Wodan]

To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE...

Disagree... for example, a Financial SE with Colossus does quite well with a lot of coastal cities.

I don't agree that running a CE means fewer great people since all of them should be generated in your gp farm anyhow...

Disagree... the term "gp farm" generally has no meaning until the NE is available. In other words, one of your cities is outstripping all your other cities in GP generation. And even then, the NE is optional. You don't HAVE to spend time building it, after all. Thus, whether you are running a CE or a SE, how many and how fast GP you generate depends on whether you're running in parallel (no GP Farm) or in series (GP Farm). Which decision is at your option.

From my experience a hybrid economy works the best since each city has it's own unique terrain that is more or less suited for production growth and commerce, the most effective use of a city then is to design it according to its strengths.

Disagree... the most efficient empire runs Civics which boost cities across the board. One or two "outliers" can ignore the Civic boosts, such as a GP Farm, but in general the more cities you have which are utilizing your Civic bonuses, the better you'll do.

Wodan

 

[Gliese 581]

I guess my point is that the +1 commerce benefit has a lower effect as the game progresses. In the beginning of the game the financial trait can be giving you city 3-5 commerce or 30-50% of the worked tiles in the city screen. By the end of the game at most it can be 10-15 commerce but would account for perhaps 10% at best. The effect only increases per population size, whcih will generally open up more options like specialists.

SO perhaps a better phrasing is that the financial trait has less of an impact late in the game compared with early.

Similar to expansive, those +2 health are a joke early on but means a hell of alot when building coal powered factories.

You're right about the % impact it has, from one point of view, although from another point of view, in number of absolute extra commerce you only get more and more as your empire grows.

It's true that the same can be said for some of the other traits, but I don't think you can say the same for all of them. Philosophical is one of the most powerful traits but it does give a diminishing benefit as you approach the late game, spiritual gives no benefit until you deicde to change civics or build a temple and early on this does not happen every turn. Organized is close to financial in that it gives you a benefit for most of the game, except before you access any civics or build a lighthouse. Expansive also give you a benefit for the whole of the game, as do aggressive, my point earlier though was that these benefits are more circumstancial in that you only need expansive when you need health and you only need aggressive during combat. But you need and use commerce from turn one to the last turn regardless if you have your science slider at 100% or 0%. Therefore, you have use for financial every single turn throughout the game except for when you're not working a single 2+ commerce tile in your entire empire.

Edit: Also, it's been said before but it's worth repeating. If you're playing a very specific strategy, for example incessant warmongering etc, then sure, other traits will probably help you more than financial. What I'm arguing is the overall utility across many types of tactics/strategies and games.

 

[Silence101]

Disagree... for example, a Financial SE with Colossus does quite well with a lot of coastal cities.

REPHRASING: Generally, to see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE...

 

[Wodan]

REPHRASING: Generally, to see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE...

To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must have tiles with 2 or more commerce.

The next question is what is the best benefit for your empire? For example, would it be better to run an early SE and then switch to CE (to reap the early benefits of mass GP spawning), or to run a CE the whole game?

Wodan

 

[PotatoOverdose]

I'm pretty sure that Financial has to be the best leader trait. The extra commerce translates to extra science, which translates to extra tech which trumps pretty much everything else. Certainly the few extra promotions given by aggressive, defensive and charismatic won't elevate longbowmen and macemen up to the point where they can compete with Riflemen.

So the question remains, what is the second best trait?
My initial guess would be either Charismatic or Organized. Organized for the same reason as Financial (but a little weaker) or Charismatic since its happiness boosts will allow you to draft more quickly during war-time.

Traits should be evaluated at Monarch/Emporer difficulty level.

actually, a while back there was a poll evaluating all traits in the game. Do you know which trait won? charismatic. Not my favorite trait, but charismatic did outscore financial in similar polls before.

 

[Silence101]

The next question is what is the best benefit for your empire? For example, would it be better to run an early SE and then switch to CE (to reap the early benefits of mass GP spawning), or to run a CE the whole game?

A valid question, but a little off topic. My main point was that Financial is a good trait, but not the best trait - that it's circumstantial... (therefore, I honestly don't know that there is a "best trait"). I was using the CE/SE example to support a circumstance where Financial may not be as effective, though as you and some others pointed out, a Financial CE can be effective for a Trade Economy.

 

[futurehermit]

Imperialistic would be a lot better if the hammer bonus to settlers impacted converted food hammers. I usually build my settlers off of high food tiles early on so the bonus is generally lost on me unless I do a lot of whipping and chopping of settlers, which is situational for me. Also the ability or desirability to war a lot is situational.

What makes financial good imo (though not necessarily the clear-cut #1) is that it is useful for any victory condition and any map situation.

Philosophical is similar in that way in that it is flexible. You can use it to generate GAs for going for a cultural victory or GSs to win liberalism or GPs like Obsolete does or whatever.

I'm personally a fan of both financial and philosophical and less so of spiritual (I see it as a good but not great trait especially in BtS where you have golden ages and christo redentor). Charismatic is of course also good. I personally am also a fan of creative because I love early rexing in bts. Industrious is a pretty good trait but it kind of dictates what you need to be doing, like aggressive/protective/imperlialistic and therefore I wouldn't rank it in the top tier.

So, I would vote for philosophical.

 

[Silence101]

So, I would vote for philosophical.

I got lots of love for PHI - generally an awesome trait.

CRE has grown on me quite a bit - I still think it fizzles in the late game, but the awesome power of early REXing and the cheap libraries make it extremely powerful, especially in the pivotal early game.

I really like AGG - gives a free promotion without the exp, not to mention the cheap barracks. AGG is better out the gate, but CHA is better long-term with the happiness and building bonuses, and if you expect to be keeping units around for awhile. (ie: not killing them off... and hopefully this is your goal.) CHA also raises the early happiness cap - very powerful.

I like IND, but it's very circumstantial - the cheap forges are nice.

I would still rate ORG higher than FIN in most cases. ORG is GENERALLY better for SE's and larger, late game Civ's. And for those of you who love FIN, it's a good trait too.

I can't stand PRO,IMP,and EXP... yes they're not without value, but I have a difficult time finding it in most games.

 

[ungy]

I haven't read all the posts too carefully, but didn't see any mention of difficulty.
Some traits are much more useful at higher difficulties--creative is better and ind worse.

I don't see how org could be as good as financial--in the critical early game you can get an extra commerce working a river cottage or coastal tile. The coastal cities become much stronger all game. Yes the cheaper buildings are useful, but if your empire is large enough to really benefit from the reduced maintenance, then game is likely already won.

Put me down for philo and char along with fin. Maybe add creative at higher levels.

 

[madscientist]

Imperialistic would be a lot better if the hammer bonus to settlers impacted converted food hammers. I usually build my settlers off of high food tiles early on so the bonus is generally lost on me unless I do a lot of whipping and chopping of settlers, which is situational for me. Also the ability or desirability to war a lot is situational.

What makes financial good imo (though not necessarily the clear-cut #1) is that it is useful for any victory condition and any map situation.

Philosophical is similar in that way in that it is flexible. You can use it to generate GAs for going for a cultural victory or GSs to win liberalism or GPs like Obsolete does or whatever.

I'm personally a fan of both financial and philosophical and less so of spiritual (I see it as a good but not great trait especially in BtS where you have golden ages and christo redentor). Charismatic is of course also good. I personally am also a fan of creative because I love early rexing in bts. Industrious is a pretty good trait but it kind of dictates what you need to be doing, like aggressive/protective/imperlialistic and therefore I wouldn't rank it in the top tier.

So, I would vote for philosophical.

Very nice listing.

Where to you view organized in this?

 

[futurehermit]

Organized is a very solid trait. I list it as a top tier support trait in that I like leaders with a power trait (fin/phil/char) + organized (Darius/Fred/Napoleon). Organized doesn't have any standout bonuses but it is just there supporting you every step of the way.

EDIT: Obviously it dictates that you go for CoL early, but CoL is a great versatile tech (I see it as 2nd most powerful to BW in that respect) that is on the way to CS--another great tech--so I don't see that as a problem overmuch.

 

[kakitadairu]

I agree with Financial #1. Its a trait that gets better and better with more and more land.

I voted for Industrious at #2. I play on Deity. Although most wonders are not worth building, the ones that are- Great Lighthouse, Great Wall, media wonders, Christ the Redeemer, Great Library- are game breaking. The bonus also applies to National Wonders as well and that's great because you will want to build most of those. The Forge reduction is great because it lets you build Forges first in your newly settled cities. The trait is perfect for a production economy which is a great, great strategy on Deity.

Industrious takes the most skill, planning and experience to leverage because you MUST be able to maximize production, but the rewards are great as well.

Creative is #3 for me. Culture is important from the start to the end. Creative is also the strongest trait early, giving you early advantages that will leverage through the rest of the game. The reductions are great- every city should have Library and Theater.

Spiritual is really good but it doesn't have as much complete potential as FIN and IND. The temple reduction is really good because you can build several Temples for each city- but you also have to collect and spread the religions to leverage that.

Philosophical is ok. Specialist Economy is a powerful, vital strategy, but Philosophical doesn't actually give you a big boost to a Specialist Economy. Even as Industrious, Parthenon is not worth building, so I don't feel the same effect makes a great trait. In fact, IND is far better for a SE than PHI. What Philosophical does is it helps you win two races: Liberalism by bulbing, and the Media wonders because the University discount lets you build Oxford earlier. Once those two races are out of the way, Philosophical does nothing for you in the endgame.

I like Charismatic but I don't feel it is up there with the previously mentioned. It leverages ok but it isn't game breaking.

Imperialistic has several good things going for it and is a good complementary trait. I think Great Generals are pretty sweet so more of them is good gravy.

Protective gets stronger and stronger as the game goes on and its great at the end, but its totally useless early.

Aggressive doesn't do enough.

Expansive is one of the worst. Its good for a quick start because of the discount on workers and granaries (Joao is one of the best warmongers) but the health bonus is terrible.

Cheers,

Dai

 

[Zanttu]

If you play end up having lots of wars in the late game, SE is for sure more powerful... One advantage of SE is that your economy recovers fast because it's much faster to replace destroyed farms than towns... Also if you do many early wars, it's easier to keep your economy on track by assigning few scientists instead of waiting for your cottages to grow. With SE you can pretty much go from war to new war without using much time for recovering betveen wars.

It's true that CE is much more powerful in the late game, but by using SE you should already have so big empire that the game is pretty much won by the day you reach democracy.

 

[oyzar]

How can so many people vote for industrious when it does so little? Clearly in a real setting grabbing wonders won't do you too much, at least not with too many of them... The cheap forges is nice but all the other traits have better bonuses than that...

 

[Wodan]

Industrious can nab you a critical wonder, such as Pyramids, Apostolic, or Colossus. Depending on your strategy, that ONE wonder changes the whole game.

Imagine if the Industrious benefit was not cheap wonders, but instead was "Each specialist in any of your cities has +3 AND your 6 best cities each have +3 ". That would rock!

So, from this perspective, if Industrious gave you any ONE wonder, it not only is hugely powerful, it is hugely flexible.

But wait, there's more. It's not limited to ONE. You can get as many as you like. Yes, there are some liabilities, you have to beeline the tech, and you have to pay some hammers. Still, this illustrates a different way of viewing Industrious that might give an idea of its power.

Wodan

 

[madscientist]

Industrious can nab you a critical wonder, such as Pyramids, Apostolic, or Colossus. Depending on your strategy, that ONE wonder changes the whole game.

Imagine if the Industrious benefit was not cheap wonders, but instead was "Each specialist in any of your cities has +3 AND your 6 best cities each have +3 ". That would rock!

So, from this perspective, if Industrious gave you any ONE wonder, it not only is hugely powerful, it is hugely flexible.

But wait, there's more. It's not limited to ONE. You can get as many as you like. Yes, there are some liabilities, you have to beeline the tech, and you have to pay some hammers. Still, this illustrates a different way of viewing Industrious that might give an idea of its power.

Wodan

I fully agree with this regarding industrious. Also the national wonders, which is really apreciated when tying a city up building ironworks, west point (usually military city), and wall street (how much faster do you get that cash!!!).

I still think organized is stronger (just my taste) but industrious is my favorite trait.

 

[Wodan]

Yep I agree, it usually takes me forever to build West Point and Wall Street, and exactly when I need them too.

Plus, consider that wonders are "more benefit the longer you have them". e.g., if you get Wall Street or Pyramids earlier, then you get its benefit for more turns, thus its value is more.

Wodan