Second Noble Game

[ratrangerm]

OK, so I had my first successful Noble game on CIV Vanilla a couple days ago after playing on Warlord through a number of games, working to perfect strategies.

Now comes my second Noble game, in which I knew I wanted a Creative civilization and chose Catherine. And yes, I do prefer picking my opponents (but always go for a variety to keep myself guessing as to what the others will do) and prefer to play with no barbarians (just my personal preference).

At any rate, I'm up to the point at which I'm going to found my second city. There's a copper resource nearby, as you can see from the screenshot of the world around me, but I'm just debating exactly what square to found the city on.

A screenshot of the land my cultural borders cover is also attached, as is my saved game.

I already know part of my strategy involves getting that copper and training axemen and spearmen. Several of my opponents have horses nearby, and I'm undecided who I'll target first, but will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Anyway... what's the best spot to found my second city (obviously near the bronze, just needing to figure which square by the bronze).

And what other advice does everyone have on potential city sites?

Thanks for any advice you can give me. With the holiday season, I'm not sure how quickly I'll move through this game, but I'll do my best to keep you updated on my progress and with any other questions I have.

 

[Killroyan]

I would settle the city 2 S of the right copper spot. Even with the two peaks and a desert in the BFC you will have a very good city with 2 food resources and copper. If you can expand fast enough then settling 1 spot west of the site is also good and then rexerving the pigs for a stone/pig city (1NW of the stone spot on the right). You will even then get the rice and the dye and block of america from expanding but I don't think you will have time for that.

 

[synthboy]

Some thoughts. I like the idea of going for the eastern copper and it'll make a reasonable early production city if you mine all three hills. The other two cities I suggest nab a lot of resources but would require a beeline for Calender to take full advantage of them, especially the northern spot.

 

[Killroyan]

I would move the northern city 1 tile south. The floodplains at the top could be used for a third city over there. The Copper/gold city has a definite food problem which is why I didn't choose it as the first site. But it has a fresh water resource and with some irrigation from the river it can get enough food but will require a size 5 or 6 city.

 

[cabert]

I would go for stone + rice + copper + pigs : it's on the way to your first target washington

 

[Killroyan]

You are right about that Cabert but there is a very good chance that the AI will beat you to that spot. Copper and stone together is like a big red flag for the bully AI and it will take you a couple of turns extra to get there. But if you manage it you will have a better city indeed and you can still use the wheat tile for a coastal city.

 

[cabert]

You are right about that Cabert but there is a very good chance that the AI will beat you to that spot. Copper and stone together is like a big red flag for the bully AI and it will take you a couple of turns extra to get there. But if you manage it you will have a better city indeed and you can still use the wheat tile for a coastal city.

Well he asked for advice, so I give mine.
Actually, I think at 2000 BC, you should already have 2 cities, so I agree with your point about risk of being late.
There is also a risk of being eaten by a bear/killed by an axeman on the way.

I hesitated a lot before posting this simple piece of advice .

actually a city with 2 peaks in the first ring is a very strong fogbusting outpost, and although it's not a very good developement option, it's a survival move in some situations.

 

[ratrangerm]

Hey, some good advice. I should note that I'm still getting used to using the slavery option and one of the things I find is that it's best to start settlers in cities with at least a population of 2, so you can enough food and hammers to get the settler out.

I've also tried micromanging to speed up production of units, and have two scouts roaming to uncover territory faster. Perhaps I should have focued on growth first so I could get to a settler faster, but I'm still improving my techniques.

At any rate, I'm going east first, build a barracks and then work to get promoted axemen, and perhaps spearmen, to target Washington. My third city site could change once I finish Iron Working and know where iron is.

 

[ratrangerm]

OK, I've progressed to 1390 BC. Turns out Qin Shi did take the copper/stone site, although he didn't found in the spot I expected him to. I saved my game at 1390 BC and reloaded from my 2020 BC save just to see if he left the spot alone earlier. He didn't.

Additionally, Washington just founded a city just outside of St. Petersburg.

And I got IW and have Iron in my borders, but the north also looks more attractive in that there's more Iron to be had. So I'm thinking I need to redirect my Warrior and Settler north... the question is, how far north? The further I go, the more my maintenance is, but it might be worth it to cut off another Iron source.

As far as targets go, I'm thinking Qin Shi should be the top target for war. Since I have the cultural trait, Qin's second city site (which is easy to guess even though I don't have it entirely revelead) is doable and can get me both another copper and the stone.

As for Washington, I think a cultural border battle is the way to go. If he gets IW soon, he'll likely try to settle near the iron to the southeast of St. Petersburg and my culture will easily take him over, but I can also try to do that to the other city near my borders.

So what do you think should come next?

 

[cabert]

kill america!

Culture war? is this a joke?
you think 2 cpt will give you a free city?

 

[synthboy]

Chop and mine those two hills in St Petersberg's radius (for a worker if you can time it right), grab the pigs and then crush the Americans benneath the heel of your boot.

 

[Cam_H]

Yep ... you should be able to comfortably deal with America using an Axeman rush.

Connect up the Copper, Pature on the Pigs, Farm on the Wheat. Boost your population by working high food tiles, and research Pottery so you can build Granaries (and Cottage some of those Moscow Floodplains). Mine the Iron near Moscow.

When you're hitting the happiness cap - use a combination of working high tiles and whipping to put together an army of Axes. Use a ratio of about 2.5 Axes per American Archer. Steal a Worker if you can when you declare war. Attack en masse rather than piecemeal.Consider the value of pillaging the American Horse Pasture to prevent Horse Archers.

 

[ratrangerm]

OK, here's the latest update.

So I went ahead and founded my third city to the north, looking to block off that Iron... and just as I figured, Qin Shi was sending a settler up there. I beat him in time to the spot, though, and he founded further away.

I took Cabert and Synthboy's advice to go wipe out Washington and succeeded. He founded Atlanta by that Iron southeast of St. Petersburg (is it just me, or does the AI suddenly know where every resource is once you discover the technology? They may have prevented the AI from knowing where they are before anybody discovers said tech, but looks like there's still a little work to be done to keep the AI from getting too smart).

Anyway, back to Atlanta... that city was easy pickings and never got above size one, so it was gone. Didn't matter to me as I was going to raze it regardless. Then on to New York, which fell pretty easily with my city attack Axemen. I kept that and moved on to Washington (the capital). He did send chariots my way, but I was prepared and had spearmen. One chariot was felled by an extra axeman I had, and I was able to pillage his horse pasture before taking the capital. Fairly heavy on losses, but that was to be expected because of the capital's higher defense. And naturally, I kept the city.

So now the Americans are out of it, and I did some tech trading to get as much as I could. Asoka still has Monotheism and I don't want to trade Iron Working just yet, and Saladin won't trade Mono. Doesn't matter for now, though, as I don't need to run Organized Religion.

After making tech swaps, I switched from Drama to Literature so I can get the Great Library (and I should be able to stay at 100 percent research until I get Lit). Asoka is the only person with Alphabet, but I think I can beat him with the right forest chops, and besides, his spiritual nature means he may more likely pursue religions (and yes, it was me who traded Alphabet, but it was the only thing I had left to get Polytheism and Saladin wouldn't trade Poly).

So, that brings us to 475 BC... I'm needing to build up my forces a bit, and know I want to build a new city southeast of Washington, where I'll get corn and another stone, but I'm trying to decide what other steps to take.

1. After Literature, what should I pursue next? Code of Laws would give me courthouses to cut down on maintenance, Mathematics would me on the path to Construction (and I do have Ivory), Drama is good in the hands of a Creative civ (and also puts me close to Music). I'm thinking Drama can be put on the backburner, even if it risks someone else getting Music through Mathematics, but I'm undecided on after Lit... Math or CoL?

2. Who should be my next target? Qin Shi is closer to me, but he has axemen everywhere and I'm not certain if I want to go chasing Horseback Riding just to counter his axemen (axemen vs axemen is even, though, except he is defending cities with them). Saladin doesn't have as many resources, but he has a culture advantage thanks to his religion and his cities would mean more maintenance for me since the distance from my capital.

So, who's next... Qin Shi or Saladin? Or somebody else? I don't have anybody who is friendly with me and my tech swaps have been pretty evenly spread.

 

[cabert]

I would go for qin, before he hits machinery (chokonus are tough clients)

 

[ratrangerm]

Yeah, Qin Shin probably is the best target. I'll need to rebuild my economy and will certainly need to head toward construction.

Washington (the city) is a prime candidate for a commerce city, New York can do that as well and I'll want to build a library in Novgorod after the worker is completed. St. Petersburg should remain my military unit city and I'll probably need to build units for defense after the axeman is completed.

Moscow can be a commerce/production hybrid, which works well with bureaucracy, and I will most likely put the Great Library there. I could put it in St. Pete, except St. Pete would need a library and that's not going to be a good commerce or science location at this time.

I may have to hold off on building that new city SE of Washington until my economy is rebuilt, but will send a settler down there to keep an eye on it. I don't think the AI will go for the spot (Saladin is the closest, but he has land up north too), but the settler can be there just in case.

 

[synthboy]

I would go for qin, before he hits machinery (chokonus are tough clients)

I second, third and fourth this. I'd bundle construction for the cats and build some CR Axemen (should help even the odds a little).

 

[ratrangerm]

OK, quite a bit has happened since America was wiped out. I'll sum up as much as I can:

* China is gone. I didn't get the satisfaction of being the one to finish him, though, as apparently Caesar declared war on Qin Shi when he was down to his last city and took it over. Still, that was another one gone.

* I made Saladin my next target. Three of his cities fell to me pretty easily, although it took a little work to get Mecca (but losses were minimal). But in the middle of my war with Saladin, Alexander declares war on me out of nowhere.

But that being said, all he did was send a horse archer and phalanx to go pillage a plantation that was once his and fell into my sphere of influence. Gotta love Alexander, huh?

No problem, though. I made peace with Saladin, then talked to Asoka, who I've had pretty good trade relations with and asked him what he wanted in return for declaring war on Alexander (who he's already been at war with for a brief period). He wanted Music and I accepted, so that kept Alexander busy until I could regroup my forces.

* And Alexander fell to me pretty quickly. It took some work to get through his Longbowman-defended cities, but with my stronger forces, they ultimately fell. He's got one city hiding somewhere, and for all I know, he found an island near this pangea I'm on and is isolated there.

But, with Alexander off my back (I made peace with him until I can find where he is hiding), I'm preparing to target Saladin again and finish him off.

* Moscow is one of the best capital cities I've ever had in a game. Part of that was good fortune... remember the Iron that was next to Moscow when I discovered IW? Well, it turns I found _two more_ sources from my mines! With Bureaucracy in place, plus the silk resources and cottages turning into towns, Moscow is the epitome of production/commerce hybrid cities.

I also discovered a second source of iron in one of Novgorod's mines, so that city is a respectable production/commerce hybrid.

St. Petersburg remains my primary military production city, but I did develop a few cottages just to help my economy out. Shanghai is being developed to join St. Pete as a military production city.

I've got lots of cities under my control that have good commerce potential, some which are already realizing. Just need to sit down and decide how to develop the newly-captured Greek cities.

Washington (the city) is looking more and more like the city to be my GP farm. I have two scientists there now and will likely add more specialists as the city grows. Moscow has also been good for GP spawning, as I've already received two Great Scientists (used the first to discover Philosophy and the second to discover Paper) and a Great Engineer (after which I switched Novgorod from the Grocer it was building to Notre Dame and used the GE to finish it in one turn).

Whew... so, it's now 1490 AD, a lot has gone down and now it's time for me to decide which victory path to pursue...

* Domination: It's possible here, but it would certainly mean ultimately attacking Asoka, and he's been good to me... not friendly since I turned down his request to convert to Buddhism, but he's been good as far as trading relations and did help me keep Alexander off my back. Still, I likely won't have much choice if I go for domination, since Caesar has all coastal territory that won't give me enough land.

* Cultural: I'm a bit behind in that department, so it would probably take a long time to get to that point. It might be possible, but not if I want a victory sooner.

* Space Race: This one would also be possible, and I should have enough of a cushion to beat Asoka (my closest competitor) to that... then again, it would mean I wouldn't get a victory sooner than if I go the domination route.

I'm tempted to go for Domination. I've never had that victory yet in Civ IV and it would likely be the one I could achieve soonest.

But... for those of you who gave me advice, I'll leave it up to you.

And also... if you see some tweaks I can make to boost my economy (I've been running at 50 percent science for some time and am still bleeding quite a bit), I'm all ears. I do have Forbidden Palace being built in Mecca (partly in anticipation of taking down Saladin once and for all), will be working to construct more banks and will be pursuing Communism as soon as I can, but I do welcome other suggestions.

Oh, and it'll be a while before this continues as I'm visiting family for the coming week and won't have access to CIV. Happy holidays to all and may Santa bring you all your Civilization wishes.

 

[ratrangerm]

OK, so I got this game finished tonight. Ended up with a domination victory in 1811 AD.

My saved game is attached (that is, after the victory was achieved) and I've saved screenshots of the power graph and demographics.

Among certain things I'll be keeping in mind for my next game:

* Rebuild the economy as much as possible before rushing too quickly to take out the next civ. That should help keep the science rate around 60 percent and help slow down or stop the bleeding from my treasury.

* Check up on cities more often when the slavery option is enabled, so whipping can be utilized to speed production further and keep city maintenance costs down.

* Check the tech tree carefully and click on a target advance so there's no second guessing when pursuing techs.

* Use that "press enter to end turn" lull to take time to examine cities, how land is being utilized, and location of resources rather than rushing too quickly to the next turn (this is my biggest problem with Civ games... I get caught up in the action and forget to check up on things when doing so can allow me to tweak things for a better empire).

But it was a good learning experience, both from the things people suggested here as well as the things I learned on my own. Now taking on the higher levels won't seem as intimidating to me.

 

[cabert]

for the next game, build more cottages