[NFP] Secret Societies: Some things I've noticed

AriochIV

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Just a collection of observations. Sorry if these points have already been brought up elsewhere. This is from playing a number of games on King or Emperor and with Secret Societies mode enabled.

First I'll say that although SS mode does have the problems I'll list below, I do think the mode adds some interesting things to do in the game, through multiple playthroughs, unlike Apocalypse mode which most people probably played once and then never played again.

First, does any else notice that Great Generals seem to be harder to come by since the July patch? This may not have anything to do with SS, but normally since I do quite a lot of fighting, I'm used to earning a lot of Great Generals, but since the patch, I haven't seen very many. In my most recent game (Victoria, King, Hermetic Order, Large map (I think)) though I was fighting quite a bit and had plenty of Encampments, I got plenty of Great Admirals but exactly zero Great Generals before there were no more by the Atomic Era. Maybe all the Sanguine Pact AI players in the game gobbled them all up.

Second, and I've mentioned this in another thread, it's really annoying that AI Vampires can't be killed until you eliminate the civilization from the game. Even when reduced to zero health, Vampires still hit like a freight train, and this makes it them incredibly annoying to fight, as they just keep coming. I don't know if this is intended, or whether it's a bug, but it certainly doesn't behave as described in the Civilopedia. Get used to seeing this a lot:

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Third, the AI Voidsingers produce a lot of Cultists -- and I mean a LOT of them -- but they don't seem to know how to use them. They roll across the map like a tide, but I've not yet seen one use its ability. But since they're support units and not religious units, they block movement of normal units. It's similar to the way religious units used to clog up the map in Civ V, but perhaps even worse... it can get bad enough to be almost game-breaking. In this shot from my most recent game, I'm allied with Mongolia and together we're taking out Japan, but the tidal wave of Cultists is making it nearly impossible to advance my units. And I can't just declare war on my ally or on the third party, as he's also allied with the Mongols. It's pretty nuts. They're just standing there, doing nothing, turn after turn.

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In a roundabout way, Cultists make sense. They're all part of some death cult worshiping Zordon or Nick Cage. They don't care if they die. So, they'll happily stand directly in the path of that tank. And their leader is quite willing to let them. And hey, if you actually kill them, it means you're the aggressor. I see it as similar to surrounding a city-state with units to stop it from being captured.
 
In a roundabout way, Cultists make sense. They're all part of some death cult worshiping Zordon or Nick Cage. They don't care if they die. So, they'll happily stand directly in the path of that tank. And their leader is quite willing to let them. And hey, if you actually kill them, it means you're the aggressor. I see it as similar to surrounding a city-state with units to stop it from being captured.
That would be fine if it was deliberate, but Ethiopia was no friend of Japan (quite to the contrary, Ethiopia was allied with the Mongols, who were at war with Japan), and the Mongols' own Cultists were also getting in the way.

Battlefield annoyances aside, these civilizations are spending all of their Faith on these Cultists, which are not benefiting them in any way.
 
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Agree with the cultist spam. The AI can go crazy with them, creating a bunch of road blocks across the map. In my last game as Colombia, I was trying to move my army through my ally Hungary's lands, but it became a real headache having to navigate through a sea of cultists. I had units that were two, three moves of where I needed to be to attack a city, but ended up moving 10+ turns just to get around them. Really, really annoying.

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I agree on the AI and Cultists. Beside I think moving them to the religious layer could be a good idea, the AI behaviour under the current rules is not beneficial too them. They never seem to attempt to take cities with them and letting them just getting killed is questionable already when there are still relics around (because you would get them, too, when the cultist uses up all charges and disappears) and for sure not a good idea if all of them have been grabbed. Honestly, even if you fail in the end with taking the city by loyalty reduction, you might have done some tiny damage to the enemy (low loyalty hits city economy) by using the charges. If you just get killed with all charges unused, you have only wasted faith.
 
I agree on the AI and Cultists. Beside I think moving them to the religious layer could be a good idea, the AI behaviour under the current rules is not beneficial too them. They never seem to attempt to take cities with them and letting them just getting killed is questionable already when there are still relics around (because you would get them, too, when the cultist uses up all charges and disappears) and for sure not a good idea if all of them have been grabbed. Honestly, even if you fail in the end with taking the city by loyalty reduction, you might have done some tiny damage to the enemy (low loyalty hits city economy) by using the charges. If you just get killed with all charges unused, you have only wasted faith.
I agree, and it seems to me that Cultists clearly should be religious units. Which means that religious units and Inquisitors should be able to defend against them. That seems both logical from an immersive standpoint as well as a gameplay standpoint. I mean, the worship of Old Gods is clearly a religion. It would have been nice if this mechanism had been tied into the religion system, but I guess systems integration is too much to ask for the New Frontier "Pass", even though we're paying the price for a full expansion.
 
I didn't know fighting had anything to do with GG. For me, it was really only encampments.
 
I'm not certain that it does, though it did in previous versions. It just always seems like Great Generals pop up while I'm fighting. It may be that's just coincidental.
Yeah , I don't play often enough to be affirmative but I think only encampments provide points toward GG the same way only campuses provides points for GS. I'm sure someone will come confirming or disconfirming it shortly enough :)
 
As for vampires they actually seem a bit OP to me in the later stages. They hit pretty much the same as an army does, getting tired of having three vampires wipe out my armies like nothing and keep coming back for more. I am not going to be playing this game mode anymore unless they are taken down a bit or made destroyable somehow (Inquisitor or Apostle, maybe? Or maybe have the option to kill one by expending a Relic in combination with an Apostle?)
 
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As for vampires they actually seem a bit OP to me in the later stages. They hit pretty much the same as an army does, getting tired of having three vampires wipe out my armies like nothing and keep coming back for more. I am not going to be playing this game mode anymore unless they are taken down a bit or made destroyable somehow (Inquisitor or Apostle, maybe? Or maybe have the option to kill one by expending a Relic in combination with an Apostle?)
If the Vampires actually worked as described (they can be killed in a Castle or the Capital), that might be sufficient.
 
I sincerly hate secret societies. The cultist spam is annoying. Vampires are like giant death robots on steroids.
The theme also doesnt really fit in with civ.
It’s really sad this is all they could come up with after what? Two years?
The game is becoming a giant mess of poor ideas thrown together

I agree, and it seems to me that Cultists clearly should be religious units. Which means that religious units and Inquisitors should be able to defend against them. That seems both logical from an immersive standpoint as well as a gameplay standpoint. I mean, the worship of Old Gods is clearly a religion. It would have been nice if this mechanism had been tied into the religion system, but I guess systems integration is too much to ask for the New Frontier "Pass", even though we're paying the price for a full expansion.
Exactly. It is an easy way of making money. Milking.
And the mode even makes the game worse
 
I sincerly hate secret societies. The cultist spam is annoying. Vampires are like giant death robots on steroids.
The theme also doesnt really fit in with civ.
It’s really sad this is all they could come up with after what? Two years?
The game is becoming a giant mess of poor ideas thrown together


Exactly. It is an easy way of making money. Milking.
And the mode even makes the game worse

I don't hate the societies in general, I don't even hate vampires. If one is in the mood for that kinda thing it's cool - kinda like watching a Marvel movie or something maybe. But the vampires are seriously OP at high levels, as you said they are like GDR's except they can never be destroyed. They need tweaked or some method by which they can be destroyed even if it's a costly one.
 
I sincerly hate secret societies. The cultist spam is annoying. Vampires are like giant death robots on steroids.
The theme also doesnt really fit in with civ.
It’s really sad this is all they could come up with after what? Two years?
The game is becoming a giant mess of poor ideas thrown together


Exactly. It is an easy way of making money. Milking.
And the mode even makes the game worse

I feel the same. I play Civ for realism. I will not be playing SS mode
 
As for vampires they actually seem a bit OP to me in the later stages. They hit pretty much the same as an army does, getting tired of having three vampires wipe out my armies like nothing and keep coming back for more. I am not going to be playing this game mode anymore unless they are taken down a bit or made destroyable somehow (Inquisitor or Apostle, maybe? Or maybe have the option to kill one by expending a Relic in combination with an Apostle?)
If the Vampires actually worked as described (they can be killed in a Castle or the Capital), that might be sufficient.
If they’re worried that you won’t like permanently losing a unit that you can only get a limited number of, they could have them be killed like normal units but make a city project to get them back (as long as the project took a while even in the late game or wasn’t allowed when at war).
 
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