Seeking Advice: Warmongering and Early Economy Control

[steve7811]

Hello all.

I've been reading this site rigorously whenever I have spare time to read through all the educational posts in this site. What an awesome site it is. This is my first time posting, though I have been lurking around for quite some time now.

I started playing from the days of the old Civ1 in the glory days of 386 computers. With Civ4, I really started to get into it more a few weeks ago, so I have a lot to learn still.

Anyways...

I ventured into an emperor level game fully expecting to be schooled badly by AI. However, my current game has turned out to be quite an interesting one.

I am Ghandi of India, playing in a continents game. In my continent, there are 2 other AI opponents in Kublai and Wang Kon. Now, my impression with my experiences and from other posters here suggest that Wang is not that dangerous, but Kublai is an extremely dangerous opponent. So, once I found out that he happened to be very close to me, I decided to axe rush him since copper was conveniently located right in the BFC of my capital city.

The war went surprisingly well, and I managed to capture 3 of his cities. Only to be shocked that he had a 4th city on a hilltop guarded by 2 archers. It is only 950 BC and I don't know how in the world he managed to build 4 cities. I didn't think he was a mad expansionist.

The dilemma I have at this point:

Do I destroy him now or do I let him live?

Kublai's got a tough city on a hilltop guarded by an archer with a city garrison I promotion and another archer. Since I only have axes, and most of them were built without the benefit of barracks, taking him straight on with what I got is suicidal. I COULD burn my great general to spread the 20 xp for upgrade and try to take him out, but would it be feasible to do so? Or is it better off to settle the GG instead?

The continent has just me, Kublai and Wang. If I destroy Kublai, what are the chances that Wang will be more hesitant to trade techs with me? What if Kublai has techs now that I don't have, which I can surely get from him by threatening him? (Such as archery and iron working). I do not have writing yet, so I am far from reaching alphabet to do any tech trading or making tech demands.

My hunch is that in his last and only city's FC, an iron might be hiding there. It is a hunch because he seemed to have rushed to build that city as soon as I declared war on him. In that sense, it might be too dangerous to let him live, especially if he's able to crank out axes and swords.

So, to take him out, I will either have to:

A. Crank out more units, which will get me to even more economic trouble

or

B. Use my GG to give exp to existing unit, and hope for the best as I try to finish Kublai off. But then, settled GG bonus seems too good to pass.

Another dilemma:

I built just 2 cities, and captured 3 of Kublai's cities. I also have a spare settler available. If I capture Kublai's last city, that would make it total of 6 cities with an extra settler. It is 950 BC, and I am running 30% science and barely breaking even. I don't even have writing yet, and I don't know how I will be able to manage my economy which is almost about to go broke.

Should I have razed some or all of Kublai's cities? Should I raze Kublai's last city if I do destroy him and not use the settler for another city until my economy settles down more?

I know that Ghandi is philosophical, so I can kinda shoot for an SE economy, especially since I got marble hooked up (for possible Oracle slingshot) and also stone which will be hooked up very soon. But at this point, I am not even sure where I made mistakes and how to go about fixing this.

These are things I really have to learn. Managing warfare, managing captured cities, and controlling the economy. I also believe that there are certain strategy in effective beeline teching, but at this point, I have no idea on how to go about that as well.

Anyways, here is the save game file for anyone interested in looking at it.

Please educate me with all your wisdom. And no spoilers please. I intend to finish this out until the end, even if it means getting destroyed by AI.

 

[Eshnunna]

Tho I'm not an Emperor, but monarch player, i'll comment your post a bit.

Wang is not that dangerous, but Kublai is an extremely dangerous opponent.

Err Kubilai is indeed to be respected, but Wang is a notorious tech whore. If you don't take him out by the blade in the middle ages he'll outtech you sooner or later.

Do I destroy him now or do I let him live?
I only have axes

Mmmh gonna be tough.

in his last and only city (...) able to crank out axes and swords.

Highly unlikely : even if it's a prime city spot, you just destroyed 3/4 of his cities, which is something one does not recover easily, if ever at all!

I wouldn't bother taking him out completely now, especially because you have 5 cities and :

It is 950 BC, and I am running 30% science and barely breaking even. I don't even have writing yet, and I don't know how I will be able to manage my economy which is almost about to go broke.

Should I have razed some or all of Kublai's cities? Should I raze Kublai's last city if I do destroy him and not use the settler for another city until my economy settles down more?

Yep only keeping 2 cities in the best locations, or the most able to block Wang's expansion would have been better.
DO NOT found/capture any more cities! you need to switch to full economy rebuild mode.

Too late to stay in "normal" mode (you'll crumble way before reaching CoL / currency).
SE is ideed the way to go, you must use your last money to get Writing, build libraries in your cities and use scientists until you can research CoL, and improve further.
If possible, try to take advantage of any high commerce tile (gold/silver/gems) even if that means stagnating growth

You'll have to decide if you want to stay in full SE mode (Caste system etc..) or if you wanna cottage part of your cities.
And beware of Wang, since it'll take you a milennium to recover, he'll definetly outtech you. Prepare for a crippling war ASAP


But your final statements are right : balancing early growth/conquest while not sharrering your economy is the most difficult thing in this game.

 

[steve7811]

Err Kubilai is indeed to be respected, but Wang is a notorious tech whore. If you don't take him out by the blade in the middle ages he'll outtech you sooner or later.

Seeing that Wang is PRO/FIN and his unique building gives extra 15% research boost, I have no doubt what you are saying is real. I just haven't had anyone say much about Wang being a tech whore as much as people mention Mansa Musa.

Mmmh gonna be tough.

Yep. I am sure if I spend my GG to make a super unit, he will be gone. Just not sure if I want to do that though. And his position is somewhat funky at the moment. And if he has iron in his FC.... ouch!

Still... I would much rather get archery and iron working, etc from him by threatening him, rather than using my time to research them all.... that's the dilemma.

Highly unlikely : even if it's a prime city spot, you just destroyed 3/4 of his cities, which is something one does not recover easily, if ever at all!

I wouldn't bother taking him out completely now, especially because you have 5 cities and :

Seeing how he managed to expand very quickly by managing to have 4 cities of respectable size, plus him being AGG/CRE is very troublesome. AGG is worrysome as is, but CRE on an AI when I am not is extremely annoying. I am beginning to ponder if he will try to spam cities again while cranking out swords and axes.

Yep only keeping 2 cities in the best locations, or the most able to block Wang's expansion would have been better.
DO NOT found/capture any more cities! you need to switch to full economy rebuild mode.

Too late to stay in "normal" mode (you'll crumble way before reaching CoL / currency).
SE is ideed the way to go, you must use your last money to get Writing, build libraries in your cities and use scientists until you can research CoL, and improve further.
If possible, try to take advantage of any high commerce tile (gold/silver/gems) even if that means stagnating growth

You'll have to decide if you want to stay in full SE mode (Caste system etc..) or if you wanna cottage part of your cities.
And beware of Wang, since it'll take you a milennium to recover, he'll definetly outtech you. Prepare for a crippling war ASAP


But your final statements are right : balancing early growth/conquest while not sharrering your economy is the most difficult thing in this game.

Definitely no more cities. This is always what gets me down. I either expand too fast and collapse my economy, or expand too slow and get outREXed by AI civs. It is annoying. I am desperately trying to find a happy medium.

Writing, Alphabet, and Code of Laws are definitely my priority at this point. From my current batch of cities, I am not so sure about cottage spamming, but I can use Delhi to hire some scientists. I am trying to finish Temple of Artemis and hope to get the Oracle for a swingshot since I have marble hooked up, but I hope I don't get beaten by another AI.

As for Wang, I just haven't seen many people mention his notoriety very much. Usually, the likes of Mansa Musa, Isabella, Boudica, Shaka, Monty, Tokugawa, and etc are mentioned quite often for their annoyingness, but Wang seems to be one of the least mentioned. And quite frankly, I don't think anyone actually prefers using him. His UU isn't all that great, and there are much better UBs than his UB. His PRO trait isn't my favorite either, but FIN means he will probably have the capability to tech like mad. Especially if he is left alone too long, and ESPECIALLY if his default characteristic is peaceful and not a warmonger.

Thank you for your help!

 

[steve7811]

UPDATE:

I decided to destroy Kublai. I promoted an axeman to combat 4 with a GG and mopped the floor. Thank god he didn't have any more cities. Although I would have benefited by letting him live and eventually threatening to get some techs out of him, I wanted a peace of mind while I go into peaceful building mode.

At this point, I am thinking about gunning straight for optics to get me some caravels to make contact with other civs on the other continent. Sailing and currency would also be nice, on top of the top priority in Alphabet and Code of Laws. This way, I can trade for gold, techs, and enable intercontinental trade. Hopefully this will boost my research and economy.

I have noticed that at higher levels, it is almost essential to trade with the AIs wisely to gain an edge with smart teching paths. Being isolated with a supposed tech whore in Wang doesn't seem to be an ideal situation.

Here is the latest save after I razed Kublai's last remaining city.

 

[Diamondeye]

Only read OP, but I can add this: If an AI only knows you, and no others, they are less likely to trade with you. Some of them wont't techtrade at all. I think, however, that you should beat the **** out of them both, sooner the better.