Self-plundering?

I was surprised in my most recent game to find that you can rail tiles outside your territory, as I was thinking you could only road them. Roading doesn't help any future economy, but railing sure can.

not just the economy either. if i'm just gonna raze the cities and move on to the next ones, i bring along my army corps of engineers. they railroad a path once a city is gone and the tiles around it are no-man's-land, so that i can get my troops to the next city faster.

last night Asoka railroaded some of the tiles in my fat cross before i even had steam power (deity OCC so yeah, i was a bit slow *giggle*). he was missionary spamming everybody on the map and that made it quicker for him i guess. bless his heart, he built one on a mine, so i got an extra hammer, what a nice guy.
 
Yes, it's pretty funny to see a future enemy being lame enough to get into your territory and start roading or railing. I have this obsession of ALWAYS building a road before I build a rail, even though you don't need to. One good thing about that though, is that it takes twice as long to be pillaged.
 
I do the same thing. Where I have the option, on border cities I'll farm the tile closest to the border and cottage on the interior tiles. The other thing that sucks about border tiles in border cities is when they culture flip. If the AI's going to steal my tiles, it's going to be a farm, not a town.

It also helps to farm tiles outside fat crosses that are near borders. Sure, it might give the AI a bit of cash, but they'll usually stop to pillage instead of marching right to your city - if the AI gets fifty gold but I have time to bring in reinforcements, I'm happy.

They'd have to pillage 12 farms to get 50 gold, at a minimum of 12 turns they give you to prepare a defense. That's a lot of culture-push to outside the fat cross, although with creative leaders I've sometimes had a good culture spread.

At a minimum I road and/or railroad all the border tiles because very nearly all the AIs stop to whack roads, and they get no pillage gold from it--just slows them down artificially.

What's funny is when I have an oil tile in the border lands because no matter how impregnable a defensive stack I have on that tile: mech infantry, marines, tanks, gunships, etc., an attacker like Montezuma will expend every possible unit he can to try to get to that tile for pillage until he's down to 1 or 2 cavs weakened to 0.5 strength and they run off elsewhere for easier pillaging, in which case then my Marines clean 'em up. As someone said before, the AIs don't have any sort of a reasonable set of war tactics, and I've found the biggest difference between losing and winning, is simply knowing how the AIs fight wars, and anticipating that "doctrine" with a counter-strategy:

1. They have priorities on what they want to pillage, and will completely wipe out nearly all of their attacking force to try to get to that 5 to 10 gold they get from it, or to deny you a resource like iron, oil, horses, etc., depending on the era. Good defense of those tiles, even with a large stack of obsolete units (which in your zone just saves you maintenance if you lose 'em in battle), goes a tremendously long way toward wearing even the strongest of opponents down in their onslaught.

2. They almost never use siege weaponry to wear down defenses to zero. They will (foolishly) attack a city with their stack after only one or two wear-downs of city defense. I've often found having more than one strong defender unit is over-redundant, because combined with city defense modifiers, often a single Longbow defending a city on a hill can wipe out 4 or 5 Knights as they rush at the walls. When I draft or whip or otherwise rush a defense together to counter a stack of doom heading for a city, I calculate for a 1:3 ratio of strong defender units against their strongest attacking units. Then a 1:2 ratio of specialist defenders or counterattack units (e.g., Pikes, Maces) versus their appropriate target units (cavalry, melée, et al) With ratios like that a city can hold, without whipping or drafting or depleting the overall defensive unit pool beyond that level.

3. On defense, the AIs will swarm the first approaching stack to a city with half of the siege weapons (cats, cannons, artillery) they have, and hang the rest of them back for... forever, LOL. To counter this counterattack I try to send a smaller "scout" stack to my siege location (forest-hill, forest, hill, or on top of a vital resource or Town, in that order of preference, depending on what options there are in the avenue of approach), and even if the scout stack gets wiped out by a muscular defense, the main stack will be met with MUCH lighter resistance, and the bombardment of the defenses can go on as planned.

4. When an AI attempt to take a city fails, they don't learn from it. They keep on trying and trying, sometimes forever, and even when they pick a new city to attack later, it's often with the same techniques, the same mix of units--which usually isn't very mixed at all, but normally very heavy on cavalry and a small amount of artillery, the counter for which is anti-cav units (pikes, rifles, etc.) and a small amount of cavalry. Just enough artillery to slightly soften up the stacks.

5. As mentioned above, usually the AI has one particular of what I call a "rely upon" unit, that is, about 90% of its production will be of that unit. For the Japanese it'll be Samurai in the appropriate era. For most of them when the Cavalry unit is relatively new they'll "rely" on that one--NO MATTER HOW MANY RIFLEMEN YOU HAVE, which means easy warfare if you have West Point and Heroic Epic in a high-prod city cranking out rifles with Combat II and Formation. They pick up zero clue from this that it's time to change up the attacking units a bit. Even rifles with just Combat II from non-WP cities have better than even chances of beating down Cavalry, and even 2 Pikes per Cav are good odds if you haven't gotten to Rifling yet. Anyway, the predictability here gets just plain ridiculous after a point.

All in all I've found it best just to be prepared to shift to a wartime footing, rather than have tons of units "showing force" at the borders to prevent an invasion. BRING THEM ON, and when they do, their attacking units get obliterated, their WW skyrockets, their production falters, and they only have minor farm- and mine-plunders to show for all the losses. Often these idiots are offering peace before I even have my offensive stack built from my queue-swaps, such is the devastation they encounter on attack. And it's not over for them until "all their cities are belong to us", for that continent anyway. Methodical, patient, clever war strategy just takes one city after another, and the only real challenge to it is keeping the economic infrastructure and cultural improvements whipped up to be able to "digest" all that massive conquest, the ability to absort a large number of cities in as short a time period as it can be done. And even there the conquest process itself helps out in the plunder amount given for taking cities. Even if at the end of a continental blitz my slider's down to 30% due to the massive influx of city upkeep, WW unhappies, 4 or 5 cities still in Resistance mode, tiles pillaged, and all the other overall economic damage that war brings, that's still 30% of a LOT of cities, so tech advancement doesn't slow down near as much as I initially feared in my earlier games. As I've played more I've become less shy about just keeping the conquest on the march, and don't worry about the freakin' slider until the post-war Rebuilding Phase.

IMO. Other people's mileage may vary.
 
I actually can't recollect ever having a town pillaged on a coast tile before.

I've only seen it when they give me a surprise swarm of Gunships. I have to pretty much write that coastal city off, economy-wise, if I didn't have it built up with a lot of SAMs and Mech Infantries to whacka stacka Gunships. And because Mechs are also good against Marines, Mechs are my typical coastal counterattack workhorse unit, in the modern era. Prior to the enemy having Gunships it's usually enough to have one of each unit in each coastal city, and quite a few extra artillery, as they nearly always just land a stack next to the city giving me a free turn to barrage them to smithereens. Then a "floater stack" of cavs or other highly-mobile units, each covering a number of coastal cities they can react to--which makes a good railway system vital, and Engineering prior to that, as then you can reduce your counteroffensive stack workload considerably. Particularly important if you have a lot of coastline to defend!
 
I've only seen it when they give me a surprise swarm of Gunships. I have to pretty much write that coastal city off, economy-wise, if I didn't have it built up with a lot of SAMs and Mech Infantries to whacka stacka Gunships. And because Mechs are also good against Marines, Mechs are my typical coastal counterattack workhorse unit, in the modern era. Prior to the enemy having Gunships it's usually enough to have one of each unit in each coastal city, and quite a few extra artillery, as they nearly always just land a stack next to the city giving me a free turn to barrage them to smithereens. Then a "floater stack" of cavs or other highly-mobile units, each covering a number of coastal cities they can react to--which makes a good railway system vital, and Engineering prior to that, as then you can reduce your counteroffensive stack workload considerably. Particularly important if you have a lot of coastline to defend!

Yes, I forgot about the blasted gunships, as they can be a real bother should the enemy muster up quite a force. My last game they did muster up a very large force by transports and carriers. They had a very large fleet and I had only one functional surface fleet making port for that sea. It's almost like the game wanted to prove me wrong. I had three cities that were split apart during conquest of a civ earlier, and we were playing very late (maybe around 2150). These cities were so relativelyt new though, that losing them to the masses didn't matter too much. The only problem was though I had destroyed approximately 30-40 land units on the previous turns, I somehow didn't notice him land the largest force yet in that very area and therefore lost all my subs which were in for repair. Actually, IIRC, if I had any cottages in beside that port, they were more inland tiles because the port was so bad off for production and me wanting a surface fleet that most of the tiles were getting hammer builds.

Another thing about that game, was that since I was into the 5th or 6th future tech already, need for towns as a whole was minimal. That's another thing for you guys that haven't played too deep yet. You play to 2150 or so, and the global warming nonsense is on many turns destroying 2-3 tiles, including the improvements on them (not touching the roading). It really makes for a bit of a ripoff game. Here you have been playing so long into the game, only for some unproven bit of political extremist nonsense destroying everything you were building, and for what? Suddenly the key to the game, what little is left of it, is to try to start building merchants en masse and in many cases to destroy your old towns into waterwheels and as such to try to key from starving to death. The game loses a lot of it's appeal due to not being able to do R&D like you used to (only future techs left), but that doesn't even slightly compare to the ridiculous global warming nukes. I wish there were a button to turn that garbage off, or at least tame it to 33% of it's current level. The funny thing is that when the nukes started going off right and left, it didn't seem to increase it any. It looked as though when the game gets so late in time that it will just get worse. As far as I could tell, there was nothing I could do about it. I might had considered going with the environmentalist wacko civic to see if that would help (although NONE of my cities had a single point of choking pollution), but my unfortunate decision earlier in the game to attack the civ that wasn't the strongest, finally backfired against me when the strongest decided to join in after I had lost two of those three split off cities. I consider myself defeated and quit. There's no way I could fight off the two best civs because the global warming kept destroying everything. I think I got it worse than my opponents (my capital was particularly decimated) but even if I could hold them off, having everything destroyed like that and just barely making do on making units, all to try and achieve a dominant victory was just too much of a chore.

One thing's for sure, if you want to play a conquest/domination/culture only type of game with no time limit, you better be ready to start your absolute onslaught no later than when you get tanks, because otherwise there won't be anything left worth having and it will be frustrating alone just trying to flag the tiles that got destroyed and try putting waterwheels on them. Pretty rotten too, because I bet you anything the AI doesn't adjust to the GW decimation properly. I didn't have enough workers to rail my entire empire, and then I have to spend time making blasted waterwheels on GW tiles (at least if those tiles were by rivers), and to make matters worse there's always the issue of radiated tiles that came my way courtesy of the civ I attacked (though the GW started long before that).

One funny thing about playing in the GW era, and that is that the new power in the game becomes the coastal cities, because the nuking GW doesn't touch the ocean water tiles. If you have some say 4-5 hills and nothing else but water, you got it made, because the nuking may repeat on your mined hill, but you can always rebuild it. If you have a city with no river or water connections, it's just a matter of time before you're down to one citizen left, and only then because the GW doesn't affect the cities.
 
It really makes foe a bit of a ripoff game. Here you have been playing so long into the game, only for some unproven bit of political extremist nonsense destroy everything you were building, and for what?

If it annoys you that much in a game, just wait until it starts happening to your actual planet. I can only imagine how mad you'll be at the designers of this blasted Earth.
 
It really makes for a bit of a ripoff game. Here you have been playing so long into the game, only for some unproven bit of political extremist nonsense destroying everything you were building, and for what?

Civ2 was more forgiving: grass became plains, plains became deserts, etc., BUT, you could use "Engineers" (modern workers) to re-transform that terrain back to more productive land, which made a large swarm of them essential if you had a lot of pollution going.

To me the unproven political extremist nonsense isn't that global warming is happening, but that the cause of it is necessarily farting cows, cars, and other nonsense these people religiously cite for it. I think a much larger factor here is the flaring of solar radiation, totally beyond our control. A star generates far more heat than a factory, QED.

Suddenly the key to the game, what little is left of it, is to try to start building merchants en masse and in many cases to destroy your old towns into waterwheels and as such to try to key from starving to death. The game loses a lot of it's appeal due to not being able to do R&D like you used to (only future techs left), but that doesn't even slightly compare to the ridiculous global warming nukes.

To be quite honest if I haven't won space race by about 2010, an AI has. And if my pollution is bad enough to make Civ's "Global Warming" effects become a factor, it's also hurting city growth bad enough that I've been motivated to install Recycling Centers, Supermarkets, Hospitals, etc., to counter that (which amuses me: a Supermarket can put a stop to Global Warming! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, mystery solved! LOL...)

One funny thing about playing in the GW era, and that is that the new power in the game becomes the coastal cities, because the nuking GW doesn't touch the ocean water tiles. If you have some say 4-5 hills and nothing else but water, you got it made, because the nuking may repeat on your mined hill, but you can always rebuild it. If you have a city with no river or water connections, it's just a matter of time before you're down to one citizen left, and only then because the GW doesn't affect the cities.

Which is yet another "realism challenge" for Civ, because the projections for planet earth are that coastal cities will be underwater as the ice caps melt, raising ocean levels. Present day Venice is already seeing this effect, and New Orleans had it happen indirectly (via a storm).
 
(which amuses me: a Supermarket can put a stop to Global Warming! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, mystery solved! LOL...)

This is a great irony. Supermarkets, at least in the American style I'm familiar with, are great contributors to carbon dioxide emission.
 
This is a great irony. Supermarkets, at least in the American style I'm familiar with, are great contributors to carbon dioxide emission.

Yep, the cartoon physics of Civ just keep adding up and up.
 
Supermarkets in Civ4 don't reduce (or affect) global warming.

I always thought high "unhealthy" levels increased it? That's been my experience when I've tried to "farm" my way out of unhealthy conditions in a city. 3+ green frownies and the GW just start slamming you every other turn.
 
If it annoys you that much in a game, just wait until it starts happening to your actual planet. I can only imagine how mad you'll be at the designers of this blasted Earth.

I can't recall seeing entire resources such as mines and the terrain itself being done IRL. It annoys me precisely because it doesn't happen IRL. It's not even close. We have seen regional temperature changes, to where places like Greenland were once actually green, but that would involve weather change at worst. What we are seeing in the game is a deluge of laser beams from the sky; totally ridiculous!
 
Skallagrimson:

Civ2 was more forgiving: grass became plains, plains became deserts, etc., BUT, you could use "Engineers" (modern workers) to re-transform that terrain back to more productive land, which made a large swarm of them essential if you had a lot of pollution going.

To me the unproven political extremist nonsense isn't that global warming is happening, but that the cause of it is necessarily farting cows, cars, and other nonsense these people religiously cite for it. I think a much larger factor here is the flaring of solar radiation, totally beyond our control. A star generates far more heat than a factory, QED.

See my prior response about GW, I admit the climate may change, but that is CLIMATE, not laser beams from on high. Yes, it is correct there would be something of a gradual change like in CIV2, but part of the farce is that the entire tile is destroyed, mine, farm, anything (excepting the roading), and the whole thing is changed into a desert. As I said, it wouldn't be so bad if it weren't so frequent, and, as you point out, if you can terraform it, but to a large extent terraforming is almost as fictional as these ridiculous laser beams so I'm not so sure I'm up for terraforming. There has always been global cooling or warming, and as to what causes it I couldn't care less, but I only know that won't stop the wacko element from claiming anything they object to, like cars, is the cause of it.

To be quite honest if I haven't won space race by about 2010, an AI has. And if my pollution is bad enough to make Civ's "Global Warming" effects become a factor, it's also hurting city growth bad enough that I've been motivated to install Recycling Centers, Supermarkets, Hospitals, etc., to counter that (which amuses me: a Supermarket can put a stop to Global Warming! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, mystery solved! LOL...)

I don't know if I explained that game enough before, but I HAD taken all those improvements in EVERY city, yet it did no good. There was not a snigle city where the food being made was being compromised by some pollutant. Unless going to the enviromentalist civic puts you over the edge, then there's nothing you can do to stop it. Part of the problem, I'm imagining, is that the rest of the civs may have chopped to such excess that they are polluting things so much my non-pollution doesn't matter, but if that so it's still a sorry game for me to play. BTW, I am not playing with political or spacerace victories on and no time limit, therefore I "would" be able to play an extended game if it wasn't for the alien laser beam invasion that is GW.

Which is yet another "realism challenge" for Civ, because the projections for planet earth are that coastal cities will be underwater as the ice caps melt, raising ocean levels. Present day Venice is already seeing this effect, and New Orleans had it happen indirectly (via a storm).

Yes, the exact opposite of what the game is doing. You have your best cities as coastals and your inlands as largely destroyed by laser beams.
 
I can't recall seeing entire resources such as mines and the terrain itself being done IRL. It annoys me precisely because it doesn't happen IRL. It's not even close.

This is totally wrong. Desertification in real life is a huge problem. Historically, the primary cause has been other human activities, not global warming, but that will shift as global warming accelerates.
 
This is totally wrong. Desertification in real life is a huge problem. Historically, the primary cause has been other human activities, not global warming, but that will shift as global warming accelerates.

Even so, any desert making by some indifferent force, let's say GW, not only doesn't do it in one fell swoop on the terrain itself, but it also doesn't destroy the typical civ-type improvements such as mining. The GW might as well be phasers from the Enterprise.
 
Even so, any desert making by some indifferent force, let's say GW, not only doesn't do it in one fell swoop on the terrain itself, but it also doesn't destroy the typical civ-type improvements such as mining.

Does global warming in Civ4 destroy mines on desert hills? I agree that doesn't seem right. It should just change the terrain to desert, but that shouldn't make it different from existing deserts.
 
Does global warming in Civ4 destroy mines on desert hills? I agree that doesn't seem right. It should just change the terrain to desert, but that shouldn't make it different from existing deserts.

Technically I can't tell you that. But I am guessing it doesn't bother tiles which are already desert (lightning not striking twice in the same spot:lol: ); at least I didn't notice it occur any. If true, that would mean that once it decimated a tile that such a tile would then be immune to further damage even if it were a tile that could be improved slightly again. Then again, I could be wrong and any improvement may re-attract it again, but I would imagine the programmer would make the desert terrain very low priority on the strikes even if it wouldn't prove immune. So the lesson could be, if you play long enough, every single non-city or non-water tile could be destroyed down to desert level, and therefore it could appear that the strikes had stopped altogether at one point, but unfortunately that would be for lack of targets and not that it got any better.

Hey didn't Kevin Costner "star" (I use the word star loosely) in some dumb movie about everybody living watery existences? Perhaps he covertly programmed this GW garbage.
 
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