How Would You Start?

[sampsa]

T61

Spoiler :

T51 only making 9 at 0% but now it's the time to build cottages so it will improve quickly. 6th worker out next turn - figured I have a lot of use for them will all the forest to chop and cottages to build. I also went agri and not fishing (hadn't discovered the fish in time). Here going for masonry first for GW failgold, but alas it was built, so switched to writing.

Also note Asoka fog busting my north.

3T behind in tech vs antimony's game but I'm not worrying about it really. 5th on plains ivory and Hari will 3-pop settler for 6th city soon. Will go on gems if nothing better, just need that . Oh yes Gilg plots, hope it's on me so that the game is not too easy. Lost the fog buster on "ba61", but can get my copper back in 3T which should suffice (trading it to Mansa).

 

[sampsa]

T80

Spoiler :

6 cities, 7 workers, still 10T away from construction. Probably pretty weak play but it's a nice empire and not much can go wrong, as it seems Gilgy is stuck plotting forever and I don't think it's on me. Mansa is WHEOOHRN too. Would love to get some -res via trade already. Think I'll go juda and attack Catnip first. Map seems totally unfair as they are not really expanding even. Putting some chops towards Mids for .

Oh decided to skip fishing this time for mach/engi-bulbs and working on those GS already. Won't finish, but surely can win pre-1000AD from here.

 

[sampsa]

ok played on a bit T101

Spoiler :

And I was Gilga's target! Too bad it was utterly pathetic, attack T87 or so with 3*vulture 1*chariot, slams them to the walls and makes peace.

Declare T97. That +1 from gold is needed, also switching to juda now.

It's not as easy game as the last one, but in 9T have bulbers for machinery and engineering, though need aesth, alpha and MC to be able to bulb. Lack HBR too for elephants. Catty built a shrine which helps a bit. Only trade so far math for IW with Asoka I think.

Can't play for a week so probably will just abandon the game now.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'm hoping someone goes early WHEOOHRN on me as well...

T47

Spoiler :

I don't know if this is the best way, but it makes sense to me. BW-AH-wheel-agri-(pot), worker-worker-settler-warrior-settler-settler in capital working mined pig nonstop. 2nd city to the north, doesn't require workerT really, but improved sheep anyway, then back to chopping. That city grew on warrior and whips worker at size 4. 3rd city to the S, picked close cheap spot that can work a strong tile as I think I'm in time for copper anyway. Grow on warrior, whip worker size 2. Chopped under 3rd and 4th cities. Just got a forest growth that slows settling down by 1T but it doesn't matter. 4 cities, 4 workers by T50 is a fast start in my book.

"Army" is one warrior plus the initial scout but probably need more guys now. Only worried about the north, but I think Hari can handle two archers soon and copper is not that far off. Then ready for granaries and growth. 5th surely must grab some -res. Maybe settle on ivory and gems like a boss.

View attachment 696649

I've read this thread.

Spoiler :

I think it's a good idea to improve on the dotmap. You would want, generally, to settle closer rather than farther, to speed up development. It leads to a much more efficient use of movement points and, also, helper cities are extremely valuable when Pottery time comes.
But why would you not also take Fippy's hint and tech AH first ? Ok, it's awkward to go AH into BW but you just insert The Wheel in between, which gains you turns in movement points (settlers), rather than in production (chops). You can gain back those turns later when you chop roaded forests.
I think if you take the whole hint, you also settle your 2nd 3S and not north. Settling south gives you the best food (which teching AH first also does...) and also a foothold for further expansion.
When spawning in the north and evaluating two comparable city sites, I would very reluctantly begin to settle in the corner of the map.

Just my 2 cents

That said, I would gladly follow you and "settle along the river". I think that's the way to go for the first 4 cities.

 

[sampsa]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Thanks for the comments. I'm not really sure if AH or BW first is better, my gut said BW so I went with it. I should try AH first when I have time and maybe learn something.

I like your idea of going S first, especially if AH first. I do believe in "strongest sites first" very much. I also agree that on deity pangaea it's a very important idea to settle towards the center. On immortal and below the land grab part is not that important as you have more time to get the cities up.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@sampsa : re : AH vs BW

Spoiler :

Skipping AH should often be a very real consideration, saving on important early to acquire key techs... But what, then, is the objective ?
It would be unlocking cottages and Granaries earlier, correct ? To get the benefit from earlier cottages/granaries, AH would naturally have to be postponed until after Pottery.

Going BW into AH before Pottery defeats that purpose and runs you into some issues.
Size 1 capital. Since you cannot grow the cap, you need a constant flow of chops to maintain production. Yet, the deforestation does not benefit the capital itself (population/infrastructure).
This also has a very real effect on your commerce generation and helps explain why Antimony is so much ahead of you in that regard. Even growing on 1 tiles has a very impacting effect early on (percentage per turn).

That said, I too am a little uncertain about the second city's location, as I agree that the northern spot seems a little stronger.
I would, otoh, forego the floodplains and settle 1W on the plains hills. I think the natural hammers are appreciable for some warriors or the like. It's also a better defensive position against the tundra barbarians. Maybe, then, the need for a border pop to claim the sheep is why I would prefer to delay that city a bit (compared with 1st ring pigs).

Your 4th worker seems on point and that probably means your build orders were, too

 

[antimony]

@BornInCantaloup I did BW first, I skipped Agri though. To be clear I'm not sure that opening would work on Deity.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup I did BW first, I skipped Agri though. To be clear I'm not sure that opening would work on Deity.

You did, but you also replaced your mine with a pasture early and put emphasis on growth, which translates into commerce

Edit : oh, I see what you mean. Maybe Sampsa is not really 3 turns behind in science as he thought ? That would be the grab city coming back to bite you.
Your land is still, overall, better developped at T61.

 

[drewisfat]

I'm also in the BW first camp. Only one pasture in capital, no agriculture, forests to chop, expansive would all push me in that direction.
It's straightforward to compare expansion speed, but much less clear when you factor in tech pace. You can always get further ahead by starting cottages earlier, but this comes at a gamble of losing city spots, barbs pillaging, getting DoWed without archery, etc.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'm also in the BW first camp.

That's good to know. It's always important to choose a camp, right ? So that you know who your ennemy is.
Also, how else would you build the great wall ?
"I've never built an archer in my life" You make arguments up willy-nilly to fit your own purpose, don't expect me to take you seriously.

Sorry @boards.

I can give you this, as if to be constructive. Those are T50 Pottery and T60 Writing.

Spoiler :

I've got 3 workers in the north and the corn will be improved next turn. It's probable that one is out of position and should be assisting in the south instead.
Other decisions are debattable. I've been forced into a lot of roads (which did speed up settler movement) that were not exactly optimal worker turns.

Early build orders were :
Capital : Worker, grow to 2, settler, warrior, worker, grow to 3, settler (3x chop)
City 2 : grow to 2, worker (2x chop), grow to 4, settler (chop + 2pop whip).

Perhaps this does emphasize one of Sampsa's hints that worker/settler builds should be hurried when possible.
Stagnation is not a good thing and workers/civics are there to help us around.

Growing to 3 in the capital is a stake because it is only then that it produces 10H/t towards settlers, which combines with chops so much better.
12H/t is a much better number to combine with a double chop (5t settler) but we cannot afford that here.

Of course, most of the action happened earlier but I can rest easy, because I know that Drewisfat will nail it and explain it to you.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Wow. Thanks for the commentary everyone. Very insightful. Lots more to consider.

 

[Nick723]

Good to have you back @BornInCantaloup. Your posts are always thought provoking.

I’m sure @drewisfat can fight his own battles but I believe his point about archery being useless relates to barbs, not DOWs.

Building on your thoughts above, I’m generally struck by how much i value worker turns (or hate idle workers). Solution here seems to be to get the next cities up more quickly (so settlers ahead of workers).

 

[antimony]

Getting at a point where workers or techs arrive 'just in time' is a great feeling, although sometimes I found myself focusing too much on timing. For example, sometimes it makes sense to build a worker faster even if one is not immediately needed so you can free the city to grow earlier, free the queue for another build that will be available soon, etc. In any case alternating settlers and workers in the early game is a good default approach.