How Would You Start?

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Immortal, Pangea, normal settings.

Spoiler Start position :

My first instinct (after moving the scout) is to settle on the wine 1W. The PH 1S2E is also an option, but it loses the pig in the capital.

Then there's the matter of techs. Agriculture into AH would get me plenty of food, but it will take FOREVER to get up, and I would still need BW before I could get my first settler (unless I want to slow-build it without IMP ). Alternatively, I could go straight into BW, and chop everything in sight to get my first settler or two and a couple of workers. I think this works better if I settle the wine (more forests + extra gets BW before the worker is done if my maths is correct). If I delay AH, I can always temporarily mine that pig for a not terrible tile.

Whichever way I look at it, this just feels like a slow start.

Is there something else I should be considering? How can I speed it up? How would you approach it?

BUG and WB saves attached if you're interested.

 

[antimony]

Spoiler :

SIP gives you a 13T (wrongly assumed 12, sorry) worker with EXP because you can work the 3 tile. That beats extra commerce from wine I think, even losing a forest.

1S2E gives you a 10T worker, but trading pig for dry rice is not great.

You can mine the pig indeed and go BW first (BW done by the time mine is finished), in which case you could go 2nd worker next and then both chop settler, all while staying at size 1 working mine.

Techwise if you mine pig, then you delay AH to get pottery earlier and just farm a floodplains to grow on it, unless you see AH food in 2nd city as well...

EDIT: Of course if settling reveals a 2nd AH resource in capital or a Hunting resource, then go AH first.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I think antimony is spot on. SIP for faster worker and gain more fps. In general I'd much rather settle on river wine than on a forest, but 2T earlier worker is a lot. You are able to go BW first which is awesome for Sury, mine pigs and chop. Maybe even a 2nd worker before settler.

Btw if the scout move reveals anything to the east, I'd even consider settling 1E for 1T faster worker and a spared forest at the cost of a fp.

 

[sampsa]

Whichever way I look at it, this just feels like a slow start.

Spoiler :

This is very far from the truth. You have a tech that allows you to improve pigs (mining). You have decent tiles already (fps). You can immediately go for BW and you have a lot of trees with an EXP leader. It's not a plains hill start, but it's definitely not slow unless you make it slow.

 

[antimony]

My T61

Spoiler :

I did SIP, but I think @sampsa may be correct settling 1E to save a turn


This is a rare but fun "skip Agriculture" start. BW->AH. Mine pigs, 2nd worker, chop 1st settler and store 2 more chops into a second settler because we have time. Then, worker 1 converts mine to pasture while worker 2 improves copper, then pigs in city 2. Arguably you could have settled city 2 to get pigs in 1st ring, but this is better long-term. Capital just had time to build a warrior before we lose that option by connecting copper via border pop, btw.

Pursued research into Wheel-Fishing-Pottery. Capital to size 2, chop settler for city 3 (deer/sheep north), and city 2 at size 2 builds a settler for fish/ivory.

4 cities, 4 workers, just finished Writing. I would have avoided some unhappiness by prioritizing ivory camp (even the jungle one) over chopping the fish boat in city 4, but I'm whipping libraries next turn anyway.

A few interesting options open up. I think Pyramids are not great here because happiness is not *that* bad and we have backstabby neighbors (Catherine and Gilgamesh). I would rather go on the offensive with elepult, or horse archers (we don't have horse but Sitting Bull is willing to trade it for copper and pig...).

 

[antimony]

It's really rare to have a truly annoying starting area with Sury, because of that combination of opening techs and traits. The main risk to avoid is crashing your economy REXing, but CRE even helps with the trade routes.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, especially on something like immortal pangaea Sury is IMO one of the easiest leaders. Early bonuses, easy land grab, easy chops.

 

[Fippy]

Spoiler :

I would not mine pigs with AH resources for all city spots..a clear AH first start for me.

 

[sampsa]

@Fips

Spoiler :

Yeah, though you don't know that on T0. I think BW is very competitive anyway (well, faster expansion tends to be), as cities have non-AH -res too and they are connected.

 

[antimony]

Spoiler :

I think by T5 the two options probably seem close. It also depends on whether copper or horse turns up in the area, but you can't know that in advance.

Replacing the mine so soon feels bad, but I didn't see a clear tech/worker path after AH first.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks everyone for the input.

I'll take another swing and try to incorporate it all.

I know that these settings are amongst the easiest (for the difficulty level) that are possible. I don't see the benefit of making it too much harder for myself while I'm still struggling here.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

My T61

Spoiler :

This is a rare but fun "skip Agriculture" start. BW->AH. Mine pigs, 2nd worker, chop 1st settler and store 2 more chops into a second settler because we have time. Then, worker 1 converts mine to pasture while worker 2 improves copper, then pigs in city 2. Arguably you could have settled city 2 to get pigs in 1st ring, but this is better long-term. Capital just had time to build a warrior before we lose that option by connecting copper via border pop, btw.

Pursued research into Wheel-Fishing-Pottery. Capital to size 2, chop settler for city 3 (deer/sheep north), and city 2 at size 2 builds a settler for fish/ivory.

4 cities, 4 workers, just finished Writing. I would have avoided some unhappiness by prioritizing ivory camp (even the jungle one) over chopping the fish boat in city 4, but I'm whipping libraries next turn anyway.

So many questions here, but they're mostly about numbers/turns of builds. If you're able to post your T61 save file, I should be able to work most of it out. I hope. As it stands, I've tried to follow that build order, and I can't get my 4th city before T52, and my best effort still had me at least 5 turns behind you in tech.

Spoiler T49 - fail :

 

[antimony]

Here you go. Your screenshot seems good though.

Spoiler :

I think my build order was worker-worker-settler-warrior(grow to 2)-settler-unfinished barracks(grow to 4)-worker(4->2 whip)-granary in capital (the 4->2 worker whip overflows enough to build the granary in 1 turn thanks to EXP),
and spearman(started as warrior, growing to 2)-settler-worker in city 2 (don't remember when I got the granary in there, maybe a chop?).

Your capital needs to grow now, not make a worker. If you have 2 workers in northern city (not necessary I think) they should at least both be building the pasture.

A bit unlucky with Russia's city 3 but it shouldn't matter. Hopefully Gilgamesh is plotting on Mali or India (check worst enemy), but as a precaution you could build an axe in Hari and have a 2nd one prepped to whip or chop.

 

[sampsa]

Yep the only thing really wrong in that T49 screenshot is slow building a worker in cap. I haven't played the map though. Hope you have some warriors as you are no longer able to build them (well unless gift copper or pillage it).

on Mansa.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks muchly!

Your screenshot seems good though.

I really appreciate the encouragement, however, I will admit that this comment confuses me. Given how far behind I am (and the delay in getting Pottery will only compound that, surely), it doesn't feel like it's a good position.

Spoiler :

I think my build order was worker-worker-settler-warrior(grow to 2)-settler-unfinished barracks(grow to 4)-worker(4->2 whip)-granary in capital (the 4->2 worker whip overflows enough to build the granary in 1 turn thanks to EXP),
and spearman(started as warrior, growing to 2)-settler-worker in city 2 (don't remember when I got the granary in there, maybe a chop?).

Right. That build order is very trippy to me. Its the only way I can see to get the 2nd city up that quickly, I just worry about barbs. As it was, I think I had to whip an axe in the north to repel an archer (or that may have been the previous attempt). Only building one warrior before copper is connected, makes defense quite expensive.

Your capital needs to grow now, not make a worker.

Hmmm... Don't know what happened there. I think that was just a placeholder until I looked at what I wanted - then I didn't bother because I'd missed my target.

If you have 2 workers in northern city (not necessary I think) they should at least both be building the pasture.

Yeah, the timing didn't work out for that. By the time the 2nd worker got to the pasture, I'd have 2 workers there, with only 1 worker turn left on the pasture.

A bit unlucky with Russia's city 3 but it shouldn't matter. Hopefully Gilgamesh is plotting on Mali or India (check worst enemy), but as a precaution you could build an axe in Hari and have a 2nd one prepped to whip or chop.

Yep the only thing really wrong in that T49 screenshot is slow building a worker in cap. I haven't played the map though. Hope you have some warriors as you are no longer able to build them (well unless gift copper or pillage it).

Lol. Nope. This was my worry too, but I couldn't see any other way to match antimony's timing.

on Mansa.

Thanks! I keep forgetting about that.

 

[sampsa]

Obviously hard to compare your T49 to his T61.

 

[antimony]

I think I had pottery after T50 so this seems close, you can check with the save. I agree about the warriors for happiness and could have managed it better here. My main worry in terms of expansion speed was losing the ivory to Catherine. On immortal you rarely have barbs entering borders until T50 (need an average of 3 cities per civ I think), at which point you can put 5 hammers into an axe to 1- whip it in an emergency.

 

[sampsa]

I keep forgetting about that.

Note that if several AIs have an -symbol next to them you haven't selected a target.

I agree about the warriors for happiness

I'd try to get at least 3 warriors before copper is improved. If it's impossible, perhaps gift it to the Indian leader for 10T. Yes you can 1-pop whip an axe, but also you'd rather not.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I think I had pottery after T50 so this seems close...

That surprises me. I couldn't see any way to get get all those cottages up (and worked) inside of eleven turns. Which explains why I thought I would need more workers.

 

[sampsa]

Well a lot happens in 12T. Hari can chop workers.