Severe Civ3 problems rant

[Civ2Rules]

Hi all,

New member here. I just feel the visceral need to vent about the lacking state of this game. There are many, many problems, which I'm sure everyone here has pointed out already, but I just feel the need to explain why I think this game SUCKS!

I'll try to put these in order of importance/rage:


1. Civ3 is SOOOOOOO slow! I have over a 1 gig processor and 256 MEGS of RAM. Why is this game so slow? It got better with the 1.16 and 1.17 patches, but it is still inexcusably slow. The delays between unit moves are agonizing!


2. Deity impossibilty. I have beaten Civ2 on Deity numerous times (and have lost numerous times, of course) but I just cannot see winning on Deity. The cheating by the comp is so rampant, it's out of control. Some samples:
Ridiculous production cheating.
Never a war between the comps.
Free wonders (I have NEVER managed one except the Colossus on that level).
Out of control contact between other empires (and therefore total free tech trading).
Crippling corruption.
Total gang-bangs - (attacks by multiple empires unless you give them all your maps and gold and even then, don't run out of $$$...!)

3. So I turned it down to Monarch... And still massive cheating! I was playing the Americans, and got something like 8 techs due to my aggressive scouting. I contacted the Persians, who my Sci-Guy said were "backwards". I was pleased - finally a level without ABSURD cheating. About 15 turns later, I talked to them again about getting the hell out of my territory and they had COMPLETELY CAUGHT UP!!! On Monarch??? Come on...!

4. The Diplomatic model sucks! You have to give away your first born to get an alliance. Giving away cities is a good change, but Civ2 had more options and they were more practical. The gang-bang even occurs on Monarch level! Then you have to give away your second born to get some of the enemies off your back! On Monarch??? Come on...

5. Lacking Leaders. After winning probably 150 Elite unit battles, I have received 1 (yes, ONE) Leader! With the Caravan wonder building capabiity removed, it simply reinforces the fact that Deity is impossible, and that this game sucks.


6. I miss the following:
Diplomats: Those dudes were cool - blowing up buildings was a beautiful thing. I agree that the bribes were a little out of hand, but the ability to blast the enemy cities with those little terrorists was a lot of fun. Plus, it was much easier to establish embassies and steal techs. Stealing techs in this game is so expensive it's almost impossible. This made up for the rampant cheating on Deity in Civ2.

Caravans: It may have been a little cheesy to stack them up and get a wonder, but that was the only way to overcome the Comp cheating on Deity in Civ2 and win (in my opinion - I'm sure there were other ways, which was why Civ2 was so good). Now that's gone and wonders on that level, due to this Leader nonsense, are nigh impossible. Plus the trade model was cool - extra commerce from trade, especially rival empires. That would produce many $$$ for me in Civ2. All you get in this game are resources. That's a good addition, but why remove the trade bonus of caravans also?

No techs for city conquest: I understand why they took this out. It probably promoted too much of an agressive approach. But so what? Who wants to sit around and build that gay spaceship anyway? Why get rid of it COMPLETELY?? So I kill a bunch of swordsman during an attack and can't figure out what iron is when I have all these dead dudes with their swords and armor around?

******

Please don't tell me about changing an Editor. That is beyond lame.

I want to play with these settings:

Huge world, continents (high land), and everything else average. I usually play with about 7 or 8 enemy civs.

The solution to Deity should not be changing the Editor or manipulating the game settings. From time to time I hear about people going on about Archipelago or small world and whatnot helping them win Deity. That's lame too. I want to play the game "old school" - Huge, continents, average. It's simply unplayable with that on Deity. That sucks.

I don't play with saved games. That is the biggest cheat of them all. I take my whippings and suck them up. That's why my loss percentage in other games (see below) is so high. I like to beat the game au natural - no cheats, no saved games, no special settings, no customization.

In Master of Orion2, I would play with the latest patch on Impossible. With most regular races, I would lose about 90+% of the time. With a custom race, I would lose about 50+% of the time. I'm cool with that. The comp cheats, gangs up on you, trades techs, etc., but it is BALANCED just enough that you have a chance every once and a while to squeak out a win. Often I would come close and then get smoked. This is the main reason why MOO2 is the best strategy game ever made, and it is the oldest game that I still play (7 years!). It is PLAYABLE on its highest level.

In Civ2, the deal was much the same. I would lose probably about 70% of the time. This includes all the still-born starting locations, getting toasted by barbarians, losing key wonders at the last turn and starting over, etc. Again, unlike most chumps I do NOT use saved games (unless I stop playing or I make a typo, of course, but that's not a cheat) to cover my mistakes or make up for randomness that did not go my way. Once again, PLAYABLE on its highest level.

I'm cool with that winning percentage as well. Especially if I saw the mistakes I made, ie "Shoulda made the Great Library" or "shoulda made peace with that guy and attacked another guy." Or whatever. In Civ3, I have played what I believe is PERFECTLY (tight development and movement, solid expansion & defense, strong offensives, good research,etc. etc.) and them get obliterated so BADLY that it turns out that I was not even CLOSE! I can't even figure out what made me lose!

So that's my peace. A game should be beatable on it's highest level:
1. Without using saved games to manage randomness or other unexpected results.
2. Without manipulation of the starting settings.
3. Without using the Editor or other cheats or whatever.

And one more thing - when I say win, I mean conquer the world. I play Civ for death and destruction, never for spaceships or UN votes. That's the way the game should be played, and it should be beatable on Deity just like that.

In short, I don't mind losing 95% of the time. Especially if 10-15% of those are close-run affairs. And as for the 5%, well, that's what makes a game worth playing. But getting CRUSHED 100% of the time and being FORCED to play on a lower level for any chance whatsoever of a win? That's lame.

And the slowness is totally unexcusable since this is a turn based game. That just adds a whole extra level of suckness to the Civilization 3.


See ya,

Civ2Rules

 

[Tassadar]

i am a cv 2 gamer too( i played deity level and win) but for civ 3 i begin my first game on warlord and i never play higher than regent. Beginning at deity level for the first time will disguss you about the game even if you were a very good civ 2 player. if you want to have fun play warlord or regent with less opponent. i like to play agaisnt only 2-3 a.i, sometime even agaisnt one ( i had very interesting game because both human an a.i. hav time too devlopp and space to explore, but when the contact is made it can go into several option. Good luck.

 

[Mr Spice]

I agree with Tassadar - why do you absolutely play on deity when there are other (easier) difficulity levels available? Deitey is extremely hard, I have played the game since it was released and still usually loose at emperor. And yes, I used to win Civ 2 on deity too (although I prefered emperor). In Civ 3 monarch is my difficulty of choice - it provides me with a challenging but mostly winnable game, which I find entertaining. Drop that "must jump in at hardest difficulty"-complex of yours and playing Civ 3 will be more fun.

Also, remember that 2 and 3 are totally different games. Most (none?) strategies from Civ 2 work in 3. You have to learn from scratch again. This is a good thing, after all we want the game to be different, right? Once you get the hang of all the new concepts, you will most surely like them.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Civ2Rules
1. Civ3 is SOOOOOOO slow! I have over a 1 gig processor and 256 MEGS of RAM. Why is this game so slow? It got better with the 1.16 and 1.17 patches, but it is still inexcusably slow. The delays between unit moves are agonizing!

Suggestions: Turn of the animations. Turn off show moves. Play a smaller map.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Civ2Rules
2. Deity impossibilty. I have beaten Civ2 on Deity numerous times (and have lost numerous times, of course) but I just cannot see winning on Deity. The cheating by the comp is so rampant, it's out of control.

Deity is supposed to be impossible, and generally can only be beaten with exploits.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Civ2Rules
I like to beat the game au natural - no cheats, no saved games, no special settings, no customization.

You have grit, son, real grit. I'm proudaya.

 

[Shaitan]

Wins on Diety level are certainly possible. I've one twice - one was a UN victory and one was a domination. Figuring in how many I've lost I'm right around your 5% target. I play on a standard map with everything random except barbarians (raging hordes, boo ya!!!).

I think one of the problems you are having is you seem to be setting yourself up for a fall. The AI expands MUCH faster than the player. If you play on a huge map with fewer civilizations you give them more space to expand into and less civs to come into conflict with. They've got to be monstrous by the time they meet you and since they're so much stronger than you they don't respect your civ at all.

Try a normal map with the standard number of civs. When you can win the average setting deity game you can add in more difficult things like a larger map and fewer civs (odd how fewer civs makes a harder game, eh?).

Incidentally, I get destroyed in about 50% of my diety games. Around 5% victory (all 2 of them). The rest I survive until an AI launches the spaceship, gets elected to the UN or achieves global domination.

 

[Snaproll]

Deity impossibilty

The RBD folks won a Diety Succession Game over in the Stories and Tales forum - no reloading. You can read all about it! It's called LOTR1.

It's amazing how much you can learn about Civ3 by reading those games.

Good luck!

 

[petey]

Civ2Rules,

Have you thought about maybe playing a different game?

You don't seem to be enjoying this one too much.

 

[Thunderfall]

Playing your first Civ3 game on deity is like suicide. :suicide: When Civ3 was released last year, Firaxis said no Firaxian could win on deity level at that time. Deity is supposed to be winnable only when you are really familiar with everything in the game. Your Civ2 knowledge doesn't count.

I can only win on Monarch level at the present (tried Emperor once and got crushed by the AI). It's not a problem. I am sure I can win on Deity eventually... just need more practices

PS: I can win easily on Civ2 deity level too.

 

[Sirian]

Deity is far from impossible. I've won my FIRST solo deity game, no exploits or editor tinkering whatsoever, and it's on a large map with 8 civs, so they had plenty of room to expand and tower over my little civ for the first few millenia. Not being picked on by neighbors is an art in itself, although it can help to have less-than-wholly-aggressive neighbors. Of course, I've played a ton of Monarch and Emperor games first, so I knew what I was doing before I tackled Deity.

Civ3 AI breaks down at the industrial age. So games are either competitive early, then "too easy" late, or the AI's race way WAY ahead early, and you have to cling to life and to climb out of the hole for a competitive game in the late stages. All games of civ3 fit this pattern, and I doubt the new patch will change THAT. There is no such thing as a game of civ3 that is competitive and interesting BOTH early and late. Does... not... exist.

So once you get tired of rolling over the AI's in the industrial age on Monarch and Emperor, the only place left to go is to Deity, where you scratch and scrape and beg not to be wiped out, and see if you can pull it together in time to win.

This is definitely not Civ2. That you can't just jump in here and crush Deity... well, if you could, the game wouldn't be very worthy for very long, would it? I would expect any serious Civ player to CELEBRATE the game's ability to kick your ass. I certainly did when I lost my first-ever game of Civ3... on Monarch. Take your lumps and figure out how to play. Want to complain about elements of the game? Sure, go ahead. Everybody has at least a few gripes and complaints. But to declare that the game sucks? And that deity is impossible? You come across like a ranting ten year old.


I need to wrap up the mopping portions of my Deity win before the new patch is released. I should have a report about the game up on my Civ3 site some time next week.

Sirian's Great Library - Civ III Strategy Page


- Sirian

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Sirian


Civ3 AI breaks down at the industrial age.


What do you mean by that ? do you mean a.i reaserch slow down a lot, or it mean you built factory( + maybe coal plant or hover dam) to wage war with your best soldier( cavalry or thank) and air support ? or anything else ?

 

[God]

Well the AI just becomes stupid in the industrial era. They are war hungry and will try to take on everybody.
The key is to take adavantages of MPPs and you can have the whole world support you for every war. Things just get crazy and it gives you a good chance to take advantage.

 

[Mavfin]

Meaning that, unless you are in a HUGE hole, a good human player can kick AI butt once he gets rails, even on Emperor/Deity. The AI being just a program really shows at that point, as a human player can play to his advantages and dig out of his hole a lot faster than the AI can keep burying him.

And if an AI, any AI, attacks me *on my territory* when I've got rails, he's in for a good butt-whipping. It's not always the case pre-rails.

 

[simwiz2]

hopefully if the AI is programmed to use artillery, it will be able to use its RR defense as effectively as the human. its lack of artillery units really makes it helpless in the pre-tank infantry era. And once modern armor comes around, you can just blitz them and they only have 2 units per city... maybe they should put more units in cities close to a rival border.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Sirian
Civ3 AI breaks down at the industrial age. So games are either competitive early, then "too easy" late, or the AI's race way WAY ahead early, and you have to cling to life and to climb out of the hole for a competitive game in the late stages. All games of civ3 fit this pattern, and I doubt the new patch will change THAT. There is no such thing as a game of civ3 that is competitive and interesting BOTH early and late. Does... not... exist.

I agree!

I'd like to qualify that a tad by saying that the early Deity game can definitely be "interesting" while clinging to life But Sirian says "competitive and interesting", and during the first long stretch of a usual Deity game you really can't create a Civ which can be considered competitive.

You can, barely, become competitive with the AI Civs by The Industrial Ages. That requires a lot of techniques all played carefully. But that won't win the game - at that point you still aren't really winning, you've just started the climb out of the hole. You may be ahead of some of the AIs but you probably are still not on a curve which will beat the leaders to the UN and/or Space race.

A number of factors come into play in the Industrial Ages which can be used by the player to gain a huge boost:

Rails, as noted by Mavfin.

Tech. In this phase you can gain a tech lead and keep it. You can translate that into money from the AIs, and then use the money from their powerhouses to finance your growth into the dominant position.

MPPs, as noted by God. MPPs allow you to take control over who is fighting who, using them to set the strongest AIs against each other.

Communism. Sadly, this is not one where the player gets an advantage, it is one where the AI suicides. Once they learn Communism they shoot themselves with it when pressured in war.

On the original note in this thread there's one other thing I want to comment on, "The Diplomatic model sucks!" I have large concerns about parts of the game and their fun factor but this is definitely not one of them! I find that the diplomatic model, once you get used to it, is one of the best parts of the game. It is an area which can be subtle and very powerful. Careful use of deals (MPPs, alliances, ROPs, and resource trading) has become a large part of my play style and is one of the least "formula" parts of the game I think. What will work best in this area changes from game to game, making it quite interesting.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Civ2Rules
So that's my peace. A game should be beatable on it's highest level:
1. Without using saved games to manage randomness or other unexpected results.
2. Without manipulation of the starting settings.
3. Without using the Editor or other cheats or whatever.

And one more thing - when I say win, I mean conquer the world. I play Civ for death and destruction, never for spaceships or UN votes. That's the way the game should be played, and it should be beatable on Deity just like that.

Going back to your original post Civ2Rules, I like the same things you do! One difference, I don't play whatever start I get. If I get a crappy start for a huge Deity game I roll a new one. Matching that difference, I'm not happy with a 5% win rate either. Out of my last 6 starts of huge deity 15-rival games I ended up with 2 wins. Not taking crappy start positions undoubtedly helped that ratio.

So don't give up, it can be done!

Regarding game speed, I find it not too bad, on a similar computer (1Ghz, 512Mb memory.) Turning off a lot of the animation options and some of the show options in the preferences helps a lot. I also have sound off, not sure if that affects speed. Near the end of a huge game, when you have 500 to 1000 automated workers running around, it can get a bit grim, taking 5 to 10 minutes each turn for the program to move all the workers. But aside from the later stages of a monster game the speed seems ok to me - the AI turns aren't quick but they are many times quicker than my part of the turns.

 

[d3dash]

Ok, everything has already been said. I just wanna know why you insist on jumping into a new game at the hardest difficulty and expect to win? I mean how can you expect to win if you don't know any strats for the game?

 

[Northstar5757]

If deity is too hard play on a lower level. What the hell is the problem with that? The fact that civ3 is so hard on higher levels improves the game since no matter how good you get there is always a challenge. There are several things wrong with civ3 but definetly not the fact that deity is too hard. BTW I know people who have won deity with the on one city challenge rule. So playng fairly it beatable.

And if you really are so obsessed with having to win just use the many cheats or exploits in the game, just like the caravan trick in civ2.

 

[ClanNosferatu]

I never played CIV2 but once or twice before but I like everything I seen in CIV3. And for it being relly slow then you computer is all messed up becuse I have a Celron 300 mhz with 192 MB and it runs as fast if not faster then CIV2 you just got to get a better computer is all and stop cring about you not being able to win on the hardest level right away that tells me all you just want a push over of a game you pansey. If you dont like dont play it but don't bash such a sweet game as CIV3.