SGFN-06: Brits in Space

[TheOverseer714]

Welcome to round 6 of my series. Succession Game For Newbies 6 is a little shy of newbies, with our one first-timer being a very good player, he is just new to SGs. Through rigorous discussion, we have agreed to play as England with the goal of winning a space race. We are playing on a standard map Pangaea with random opponets, 70% water, warm, wet, 4 byo, roaming barbs. Here is a picture of our 4 final starts:

After further discussion, we chose start 881.

Here is the beginning roster:

1: TheOverseer714=> up
2: PrinceMyshkin=> on deck
3: Rodent=> warming up
4: Northen Wolf=> waiting
5: Anaxagoras=> waiting longer
6: Optional/Hynestrider=>twiddling thumbs(waiting longest)

This game, there are no special rules and no variant, we just want to launch as soon as possible. As usual, I'd like to continue with the rules laid out for SGFN-05. Here they are:

Rule #1 of SGFN05: We're all friends here. We will learn as much from our mistakes as from our successes. Criticism of your turnset or questioning your decisions is not a personal attack. Don't use it as one, don't take it as one. This is also a Democracy, any major decisions like war declarations by us, Rights of Passage, Mutual Protection Pacts and what techs we pursue should be voted on by the team. This is not to say that you have no say so, on the contrary. What powers you do have are mostly the same as solo games, just nothing that will turn us onto a damaging path that the rest of the team would not agree to. Use your common sense.

Rule #2: Detailed logs. We can't spot mistakes unless we can see what's been done. Granted, we can't all be CommandoBob, but the whole team needs to be able to make sense of your turnset. (NOTE: CB, you've become famous for your logs. )

Rule #3: There are no stupid questions. If you're in the middle of your turnset and either: (a) realize that you're in over your head; or (b) have hit a crossroads that needs a group decision, stop and ask. Discussion is greatly encouraged.

Rule #4: When in doubt on cheats, exploits or bugs, consult. If you can find someone online to ask, great. In the absence of that, I like to use GOTM rules as a guide. They are always accessible, even if no other team members are online. If they need modification or if we decide not to use one of those rules, I'll put it in the informational post once a decision has been reached. GOTM rules can be found here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/rules.php

Rule #5: Have fun. I hope everyone enjoys this one and learns lots.

And Bede’s rules - I don't expect any conflict between Bede's rules and the GOTM, but if there is one, please follow Bede's rules:

Rule #6: No false peace treaties. Pointy stick research is a long and honorable tradition but breaking a peace treaty secured with technology and installment payments before the treaty has run its course will not be allowed. Any treaty secured by gold per turn or resources on our side must be honored for the full twenty turns.

Rule #7: "The trading reputation is golden" say LKendter, and so it is. That means no deliberate act on the player's part that will cause the premature end of any deal involving gold per turn or resources from our side. Losing the "Trade Rep" has consequences that will affect the entire course of the game, and not for the better. Being unable, ever again, to buy tech for gold per turn or resources, or supplying resources for a lump sum payment, changes the dynamics of the game so much that what had been a game of building, diplomacy and warfare, becomes a game of war or rumors of war, unending. I can play that sort of game, at Deity, and win, but I don't like to; it takes way too many options off the table.

Unfortunately the game does not recognize the difference between random events and player actions when considering the impact of a broken trade route. So volcanic eruptions can destroy a road and break a deal, barbarian galleys appearing on a coastline can break a trade route, war not involving the two principals in a deal can break a trade route, and the demise of one of the parties to a deal can break a trade route. So when considering a resources or gold per turn deal for cold cash, World Maps, or technology, look around carefully and make sure those risks are minimal

Rule #8: RoP rape is not a permitted tactic, nor will the use of RoP's or scouts to deny a resource to an opponent by parking a unit on it before it can be roaded.

Rule #9: No worker automation, ever, and limit the use of go-to orders to situations that are detailed in the notes to the save. It is really annoying to press enter on the first turn of a set and have little figures scampering all over the landscape. It is even more annoying to chase them down and turn them off.
__________________

 

[TheOverseer714]

Reserved for future use.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Reserved for more future use.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

I guess I'll wait to play my turn so you can put the turn-log in the new thread.

I agree this map isn't going to give us many advantages, but at least we don't already have a German town on our borders. I've made a super-tentative dotmap based on the save from CivAssist.

New City 1 is the only site that can get more than +2 food and can also use the sugar tile and could be our second town with +5 food in republic. We've the problem of getting water to the wheat. I've no argument with a mine on the BG as that's the usual practice, but in this case it could have shortened the time to get the wheat irrigated. If this is our first town, does it make any sense to switch the worker to irrigation?

If we settle the coastal sites first, we take advantage of our seafaring trait and get an extra coin or beaker in each of them which could help with our attempted republic sling-shot. Planned cities 4-5 allow us to bring irrigation to the plains and wheat beyond the mountains. Of course, there could be other settlement sites.

I'm thinking we could get another early worker to help chop the granary in the capital and speed our development a bit. We can get a curragh out from our second and third settlements. Looking at the map and the fact no other civs have wandered by from the east or south, I wonder if we're on an island?

 

[Optional]

Looking at the map and the fact no other civs have wandered by from the east or south, I wonder if we're on an island?

Ah, I had that suspicion as well. Just looking at the land and our position, I would have expected a civ west of us. But 20 turns into the game and no show of anybody? No civ west of us probably then.
But if it's an island I expect it to be a large one. We only see one incense; there must be a bunch more. I'm just not sure whether this is an island or not.

If this is our first town, does it make sense to switch the worker to irrigation?

That tile should have been irrigated, yes, but switching would waste worker turns. Decision is up to you, PrinceMyshkin, but I would probably leave the mine, and then irrigate from the tile south of London. I don't know how far that worker is with that mine, though. If he has only just started, maybe switch.
Or can a new town there benefit from the mined grassland to make a 5-turn curragh? Some more exploration would be really helpful. That warrior in the west can explore further west. We're not gonna attempt to take that barb camp, are we?
City planning: Cities 1 and 2 in PrinceMyshkin's picture are where I saw them as well. About the others I was thinking of making an attempt of getting 1 more city river placed: putting both cities 3 and 5 a tile NW. Maybe drop city 4 right on the Incense (although we need to see more of the map). Another city would then have to take over city 5's role of allowing irrigation to be transported to the west, so we would need to settle that most southerly hill in PrinceMyshkin's screenshot.
It's crucial that we put our cities in a way that we can irrigate the south, that's very well observed.

I'm thinking we could get another early worker to help chop the granary in the capital and speed our development a bit.

Oh, please do! None of our projected city sites are particularly good without improving the terrain; we need those guys with their spades and axes here!

 

[Rodent]

Checking in.

More Workers are always a good choice.

And Overseer, I just thought over a bit and found that i am a Newbie to SGs as well with only 1 Finished SG .

 

[DWetzel]

Lurker comment: seems like the simplest way to get water to new city 1 would be to irrigate and road south of your existing irrigation. As long as you have to irrigate something green it may as well be a tile you would want to road anyway.

 

[anaxagoras]

If we switch the worker before the turn ends, we've only wasted two turns. Seems worth switching to me, in order to get the water to the wheat as fast as possible.

I would be inclined to settle town 4 before town 3 in order to capture the lux as soon as possible. We'll save more cash that way than from the coastal bonus. I can't look at the save at the moment. Is either city site 4 or the incense on the river? I hate river corners.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

I think it makes sense to switch the worker to irrigation as we lose two turns, but would need many more to irrigate the grass south of London and the other BG.

I'll be settling city site 1 for sure in my turn-set, maybe city site 2. City 4 and or a city on the incense are both on the river. City site 3 is on the river already so doesn't need to move NW, but maybe its not optimally placed? I'm sure our dotmap will change the more information and input we get.

The only thing I need to know before I start, I think, is how long my turn-set should be. Are we 10 turns each from here on out?

Edit: One more thing, do we want to check F10 or F11 or otherwise find out who our opponents are out there in the void?

 

[Optional]

City site 3 is on the river already so doesn't need to move NW, but maybe its not optimally placed? I'm sure our dotmap will change the more information and input we get.

I was thinking it could get a little crowded with city 3 so close to 4 and 5. There are not that many land tiles available between London and planned cities 3, 4 and 5. Less if you put 5 on the river, which is what I suggested (a city placed on a river can easier get to size 7, which means 2 more gold in the city centre for a Commercial civ, and 2 more units supported in Republic, saving 2 gold each, so putting a city on the river can easily make 6gpt difference for quite a long time; aqueducts are horribly expensive).
We're not really spoilt with sweat water on this map. It's not a great core for going Spaceship. Although this might not be such a bad start location for England. I'm intrigued by this map; I've got no clue where we are yet geographically.

Edit: One more thing, do we want to check F10 or F11 or otherwise find out who our opponents are out there in the void?

I always like to keep it a surprise. I even hate it when those messages come up that say things like: 'Tacitus has compiled his history...'. I don't want to know that yet! But I'm kind of easy in SG games about those kind of rules; if others prefer to have a look, then that's fine with me.

What I forgot to say: I thought Overseer played this set well; like building 3 warriors so we don't need to put that lux slider up straight away was probably a good one.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think it makes sense to switch the worker to irrigation as we lose two turns, but would need many more to irrigate the grass south of London and the other BG.

Sorry about that, old habits die hard. I'm okay with switching.

I'll be settling city site 1 for sure in my turn-set, maybe city site 2. City 4 and or a city on the incense are both on the river. City site 3 is on the river already so doesn't need to move NW, but maybe its not optimally placed? I'm sure our dotmap will change the more information and input we get.

City 3 could easily be moved 1 NW and stay on the river, give the capital another workable river tile, and keep the forest for ease of MM'ing. I'd prefer it moved, but the team could decide.

The only thing I need to know before I start, I think, is how long my turn-set should be. Are we 10 turns each from here on out?

We could go 20 for each first turn-set if everyone agrees.

Edit: One more thing, do we want to check F10 or F11 or otherwise find out who our opponents are out there in the void?

I think we'll know next turn, I think the IBT after 3000 AD gets the first 'Great Book".

 

[Optional]

We could go 20 for each first turn-set if everyone agrees.

Or 15?....

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have played my turns, my actual build order was 3 warriors and then a settler, which needs several more turns to finish. In order to run maximum tech and not use any money for lux rate, I needed 2 mps in London. This will be a more challenging map than I expected, our core area is a bit cramped. In case anyone was worried, this is not an overpowered start. A picture:

Spoiler :

I didn't meet anyone, so we haven't found out where we are tech-wise. I will post the turn-log and the save here while I get the main thread set up. Here is my turn-log, hope I did ok:

Spoiler :

Pre-Flight: CivAssist 2, Word running. Open the save, look things over. Look over our tiles given to us by the great and wondrous MapFinder, declare them good.
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Move the settler East to the Wheat, discovering 1 BG, 2 normal grass and an ocean inlet or a large lake.
Settle London in place, revealing 2 river Plains, another BG and a Sugar on Plains.
Set tech slider to max, Writing in 50 turns.

IBT: nada

Turn 1, 3950 BC: Begin watering the Wheat.

IBT: nada

Turn 2, 3900 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 3, 3850 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 4, 3800 BC: nada

IBT: Worker finishes watering wheat.

Turn 5, 3750 BC: Begin roading wheat.

IBT: First warrior built, I keep him home as an mp.
London Warrior=>Warrior.

Turn 6, 3700 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 7, 3650 BC: nada

IBT: Road finished on Wheat.

Turn 8, 3600 BC: Move worker to river BG.

IBT: London grows.

Turn 9, 3550 BC: Begin mining river BG.

IBT: Cultural expansion reveals mountains and plain to our south, one Wheat on the plains

Turn 10, 3500 BC:

IBT: Another warrior finishes, send him Southeast to explore, start a third as an mp/escort. London Warrior=>Warrior.

Turn 11, 3450 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 12, 3400 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 13, 3350 BC: We are on an ugly little isthmus with mountains south, severely limiting our core.

IBT: London Warrior=>Settler. Worker finishes mining river BG.

Turn 14, 3300 BC: Begin road on river BG.

IBT: nada

Turn 15, 3250 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 16, 3200 BC: nada

IBT: nada

Turn 17, 3150 BC: The more I scout, the worse this map looks. Lots of dry plains

IBT: Finish roading river BG, move worker to another BG.

Turn 18, 3100 BC: Begin mining BG.

IBT: nada

Turn 19, 3050 BC: Warrior meets a barb.

IBT: Warrior redlined by barb.

Turn 20, 3000 BC: Moving Warrior reveals Incense.

Civilian units:
Workers 1

Military units:
Warriors 3

Build(s):
London Settler, 2 turns.

Support:
Units: 4
Allowed: 4
Support cost: 0 gpt

Contacts7
none yet.

Research
Writing, 20 turns at break even.

Sliders
10/0/0, 10 gold, break even

Roster update:

1: TheOverseer714=> just played
2: PrinceMyshkin=> up
3: Rodent=> on deck
4: Northen Wolf=> warming up
5: Anaxagoras=> waiting
6: Optional/Hynestrider=> waiting longer

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=189419&d=1222120766

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

All right, I've got it. I guess I'll go 15 turns, which if everyone does on their first turn-set should take us to 650BC. Hopefully, at the start of the MA's in republic. 20-turn sets would almost put us in the AD's.

And, yes, good turnset Overseer. We've already shaved 10 turns off writing and should get more.

I'm pretty flexible when it comes to city sites and dot-maps. River and coastal sites are very nice for our traits. I don't see our cities growing too big on this brown map, though, until we get rails. Our first two towns will be doing settler and worker duty for a while. Would you believe that dot-map was a bit looser than I usually build?

I'll put any "books" or spoiler info on civs in spoilers for those who like surprises. There's not much use in speculating on what each civ can do this early. Even on DG, a civ can't build settlers too fast if there's not much food in its start area.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

3000BC(0): Awaken worker and have him start a road(new town will gain a coin while irrigation no help in despo). Citizens working wheat, mined bg, and sugar. Slider at max science. London growth in 2, settler in 2

IBT: nothing

2950BC(1): 1/3 warrior N

IBT: London-->settler-worker (will be at size 1 for 1 turn); barb camp spawns another warrior

2900BC(2): 1/3 warrior N to incense to avoid barbs, he spots more hills grass and plains to the NW; settler to bg with the worker; treasury losing 1 gpt with 5 units; writing back down to 21 turns; citizens working wheat and mined bg

IBT: new barb west into fog on mountain; worker completes road

2850BC(3): settler to city site 1 NE of wheat; worker starts irrigation on bg to bring water to the wheat; warrior west to hill on coast, spots row of mountains to NW with grass beyond

IBT: barb fortifies on mountain

2800BC(4): York founded on city site 1 working roaded bg starts a curragh; warrior NW to another hill on coast; treasury back to break even, writing due in 13 turns

IBT: nothing

2750BC(5): warrior N to mountain, spots bg, volcano and 2 more incense, hmm..

IBT: London-->worker-granary

2710BC(6): London back to size 1 for a turn, writing back to 14 turns; worker 2 NW to forest for chop; warrior NE to mountain, spots more hills, grass and a forest

IBT: barb appears from NW on hill near warrior

2670BC(7): warrior fortifies to heal; worker starts chop on forest; worker finishes irrigation moves to plains wheat; London to size 2 working wheat and mined bg; writing due in 10 turns

IBT: barb moves next to fortified warrior

2630BC(8): worker starts irrigation on plains wheat at York

IBT: barb moves to hill next to warrior

2590BC(9): healed warrior east to mountain to block barb from approaching chopping worker

IBT: barb loses to our warrior taking one hp

2550BC(10): 2/3 warrior fortifies

IBT: worker completes chop into granary at London

2510BC(11): worker SE to road; warrior to NW

IBT: York-->curragh-warrior; worker completes irrigation on wheat

2470BC(12): worker starts road on wheat; worker to bg NE of London; warrior to NE; curragh E-2NE spots purple border near planned city site 2! can't make contact; London to size 3 working wheat, bg and sugar, writing due in 5 turns

IBT: nothing

2430BC(13): worker starts road on bg, warrior E to hill on coast, spots barb camp on forest NW-N on coast; curragh NE-2SE spots another purple border, we'll make contact next turn

IBT: nothing

2390BC(14): warrior next to barb camp; contact with Hiawatha of the Iroquois-he is up the usuals, bw, masonry, the wheel, warrior code and cb. He has 58 gold, 5 towns and also ivory!; YOrk to size 2, I cheat and hire a scientist for writing in 2

IBT: barb galley sails NE around cape towards London

2350BC(15): warrior clears barb camp losing 2 hps but claiming 25 gold; decide to switch worker to warrior in YOrk and keep scientist for writing in 1; worker finishes road on plains wheat and moves to mine the roaded bg with irrigation

Towns:
London Size3, growth in 2, granary in 5
York Size2, growth in 20, warrior in 2

Units:
2 workers
3 warriors
1 curragh

Iroquois are still up the same five techs and still have 5 towns. I suggest not trading writing to maximize our chances at the slingshot. With London making some settlers soon and also maybe York we should be on track for a chance at the slingshot before 1500AD, even if we need the lux-slider a bit.

We need one more curragh, I think, and our new towns may as well start barracks. Hopefully, we'll make more contacts soon with 2 curraghs. I suggest no trading until we're 4 turns from philo or at least not CoL until then. We are highly likely to get a monoploly on CoL and with enough contacts we should be able to get all first-tier techs, math, myst, hbr, and possibly polytheism and mapmaking. If we are beat, CoL should get us all these techs anyway. We should revolt right away if we make it and get ready to take out the Iroquois with archers if necessary. Maybe he'll build the SoZ for us and if he's cramped on a peninsula he should go down quick dg or not. Planned city site 2 is a must next, imo.

Here's the known world for England circa 2350AD:

View attachment SGFN-06 PrinceMyshkin 2350BC.SAV

 

[Optional]

That's well played, PrinceMyshkin. I would encourage the next players to keep up the same attention to detail, that'll help us with our efforts to make the Republic slingshot.

Would you believe that dot-map was a bit looser than I usually build?

Just a question, PrinceMyshkin, not specific to this game: If you're building that tight early on, and you're going for Space, would you move the capitol later? Disband towns?

We should revolt right away if we make it and get ready to take out the Iroquois with archers if necessary. Maybe he'll build the SoZ for us...

I would be shitting my pants!
I'll just throw in some strategy thoughts: We've got a huge backyard to fill, so personally I would make growth a priority over military. I would settle coastal as much as possible, and CxxxC for a start, to leave less spots for the AI. Maybe do a bit of backfilling later. The AI is gonna wander over our land with settler pairs, but we can use that to our advantage. I would try and block the Iroquois, but other nations I would probably give the option to leave or declare. If they declare, I would try and set up the Iroquois against them, hopefully giving the Iroquois a couple of tough opponants that'll weaken them, and giving ourselves a bit of welcome war happiness.
It's early days, of course, but this is a geographical position that we can use to our advantage.

 

[Rodent]

Got it, will play Tommorow

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Just a question, PrinceMyshkin, not specific to this game: If you're building that tight early on, and you're going for Space, would you move the capitol later? Disband towns?

No, I don't disband towns or move the capital in C3C. At some point in a space game if 4-turn research is achieved growth and expansion keeps up with rising tech costs to maintain the pace. When the core reaches max growth then expansion and growth in science farms keeps the pace up.

The FP doesn't really act like a second palace in C3C unlike vanilla or PTW it raises the OCN number, instead. If you move the palace you don't really get two cores and if its too far or you have a lot of towns the old core can suddenly be fully corrupt. Careful calculations can sometimes lead to small improvements by disbanding towns, but such effort isn't worth it when science farms can produce better results with less effort.

The main reason I like tight builds early is simply that you get more towns in the same amount of territory. This means higher unit support, a higher percentage of tiles being worked and less worker turns needed to develop these tiles.

I would be shitting my pants!
I'll just throw in some strategy thoughts: We've got a huge backyard to fill, so personally I would make growth a priority over military. I would settle coastal as much as possible, and CxxxC for a start, to leave less spots for the AI. Maybe do a bit of backfilling later. The AI is gonna wander over our land with settler pairs, but we can use that to our advantage. I would try and block the Iroquois, but other nations I would probably give the option to leave or declare. If they declare, I would try and set up the Iroquois against them, hopefully giving the Iroquois a couple of tough opponants that'll weaken them, and giving ourselves a bit of welcome war happiness.
It's early days, of course, but this is a geographical position that we can use to our advantage.

Yes, its still too early to tell exactly what course to take. The Iroquois are usually pretty dangerous, but its better than Germany being next door since they only have regular warriors as starting units rather than spears and archers. We'll know more as the curragh explores, but if they are the only civ on a peninsula as I think they might be then allies to play off against them won't do them any harm. Letting them hang around too long with the probable building of SoZ, building culture stealing our tiles or something worse than spears isn't good. If we can't beat them when their best defender is a spear then, idk. It also helps no civs appear to be on the other side of us either.

I certainly agree we shouldn't slow growth, but some of our next towns can't contribute to growth, anyway, since they'll grow too slowly so they may as we'll build barracks now since we'll need vet units soon. London and York when it gets a granary should provide most of our settler/worker needs for now. If we gift the Iro's republic just before an attack they won't pop-rush units and we can capture some town, increase our unit support, get a few slaves and gain another lux to boot. It will become more clear what to do soon.

 

[Rodent]

Spoiler :

Turn 0- Press Enter

Turn 1- Writing comes in. Code of Laws is next Due in 25 turns at present.

Worker Starts Mining BG

Curragh Spots Red Borders, Who can it be?

Turn 2-York-Warrior->Curragh

Warrior Fortifies In York.

Scientist is Unhired in York and Curragh is due in 5 turns. CoL due in 30 turns now

London has Grown, Raise Lux to 10 % to account for it.

We Meet Romans, They are Up 5 Visible Techs and have 4 Cities

Turn 3- Nothing much ,Curragh Continues scouting.

Turn 4- London-Granary->Settler (Due in 6)

1/3 Warrior Fortifies

We Spot Yellow Borders, Egypt or Mongols?

Turn 5- We meet Mongols, same old story, up 5 visible Techs and 5 Cities.

I consider a Trade of Writing, but Decide to Wait.

Turn 6- Nothing much. Worker Finishes Mining a BG, moves on to another BG to mine it.

Turn 7-York-Curragh->Granary (Due in 15)

Worker starts Mining BG

We are still up Writing to all

Turn 8- London Riots

Raise lux to 20%.

We meet Germans, They have Writing as well.

Unbelievable, All the AIs got Writing on the same turn, We are in danger of losing the Slingshot now. I feel Ashamed, I should have Traded writing but sought to protect it

Turn 9- Nothing much

Turn 10-London-Settler->Settler

Our Curragh sinks due to Barb Galley.

Turn 11- Curragh Discovers Island

We find a Iroq City Uncomfortably close.

Turn 12- Nottingham is Founded on the Choke, warrior in 10.

CoL due in 19 now.

Turn 13-Worker starts Roading BG

Worker starts Mining Grassland.

Turn 14- Nothing much

Turn 15-London-Settler->Settler

Settler moves towards Incense

Iroq Town on our Borders Expands in Culture.

York is about to Riot, Next player can fix it as he sees fit

Comments are welcome

 

[Optional]

Spoiler :

Unbelievable, All the AIs got Writing on the same turn, We are in danger of losing the Slingshot now. I feel Ashamed, I should have Traded writing but sought to protect it

Spoiler :

We agreed to postpone trading Writing, so you haven't done anything wrong. Code of laws can still get us techs in.
I read in your log a worker started mining before roading. Roading should have come first. We're going for the slingshot, so every beaker counts.
Try not to let towns riot this early in the game. I know I do it myself when there are 20 towns are so, but when there are just a couple of towns it's really preventable.

I hope I have civ back soon (I'm optimistic), then I can look at the save.

Just a question for PrinceMyshkin, as a follow up to my earlier question: Yes, I understand there's no second core in Conquests like in previous versions of civ, but that's not what I thought about when I asked about the palace move option. I was thinking about the lesser effectivity of Libraries/Universities in a jampacked core.
I understand now that you wouldn't move the palace, and are hardly disbanding towns. But does this mean that you're also hardly building Libraries in your core? Are you using your barracks more for science, I mean like: barracks > units > conquering wide stretches > science farms = enough compensation for lack of science buildings?