SGFN-06: Brits in Space

[anaxagoras]

I don't have access to the game at the moment. Can someone post a screenie or two?

I agree with Optional about Writing, Rodent. You were monitoring every turn, and we were just unlucky that absolutely everyone got it in the initial trade rush. Usually there's one civ that doesn't get it, but that's always the risk with a slingshot attempt. Not your fault.

We are pretty much guaranteed not to get the sling at this point, so I think we need to do some good trading when CoL comes in and plan on doing some pointy stick research, possibly at Iroquois expense.

 

[Optional]

My computer can run civ again, so I can upload a screenshot. The curragh exploration is going quite well, quite an area has been surveyed, but not much of other civs can be seen yet, so more screenshots wouldn't make things much clearer.
I do have a bit of a problem with the location of Nottingham; we had picked a different location for that, as can be seen in PrinceMyshkin's city planning picture.
Could you read up a bit better on what the team has planned to do, Rodent? In 'Gridlocked' you placed some towns not on the grid, so it's happening more often, and I think you can improve on that.

In the screenshot I can see a settler wandering towards a barb camp; he needs an escort, so one of those warriors in London needs to come with him. London can switch to a replacing warrior that would be ready next turn. York is about to riot, maybe should hire a geek.

 

[Rodent]

The Iroq had a stubborn warrior fortified on that square.

 

[anaxagoras]

Unfortunately, the placement means we don't have access to the furs. Is it worth building culture to try to capture them peacefully? If we are planning on pointy-stick research, then clearly no. But we seem to have a reasonably isolated start, so are we looking to go to war right away?

Thanks for the screenshot, Optional. Very helpful.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Just a question for PrinceMyshkin, as a follow up to my earlier question: Yes, I understand there's no second core in Conquests like in previous versions of civ, but that's not what I thought about when I asked about the palace move option. I was thinking about the lesser effectivity of Libraries/Universities in a jampacked core.
I understand now that you wouldn't move the palace, and are hardly disbanding towns. But does this mean that you're also hardly building Libraries in your core? Are you using your barracks more for science, I mean like: barracks > units > conquering wide stretches > science farms = enough compensation for lack of science buildings?

Well, tight placement is just another term for CxxC. Cities in the core can grow to a bigger size than you may think in such an arrangement. Typically there isn't much of a problem getting the core to size 12 cities once railroads become available. I certainly build libraries and universities in the core and they are the main engine of research at least through the early part of the IA. At some point there is a limit to growth, however, and science farms are necessary to keep up with the rising cost of techs to maintain a 4-turn research rate. I do use my barracks to acquire more territory for farms, but also build many settlers and workers in these farms anticipating future growth needs. In other words, expansion doesn't really ever stop. A 4-turn research rate in one age does not guarantee a 4-turn rate in the next. Growth is always necessary and I even aim for more bpt so that the science slider can be lowered while still maintaining the pace. If things are done right one can be researching even the most expensive techs with a healthy gold surplus and a low science rate.

As to this game there's not much we can do about the ai getting writing so early. I wouldn't say the slingshot is impossible, but it is very unlikely now. The good thing is we have a good number of beakers in CoL research and are still likely to get a monopoly there. Imagine if we had gone minimum science. We would have beed shut out of any early trading opportunities no matter what as our first contact had the same starting techs we did and all the others we could research.

I think its important to scroll through cities to look carefully at your tile assignments each turn, not just to check if a riot is imminent. There were no MM opportunities when London didn't have a granary, but now every third turn it could be gaining a coin by a citizen switching to the tobacco tile and still get growth in 3 turns.

Also, using the lux slider should be minimized and I would have built another mp in York and maybe a couple of workers before starting on its granary, but at least it is near completion and that will be a good thing for us. In most games, I think its better to road first and then improve as you get a gain (coin or beaker) for the empire faster. There are cases when an improvement might come first, but I typically don't bother calculating if it's worth it and just road first.

Too bad about the fortified Iroquois worker, but I might have delayed settling if he moved soon to get that bg and eventual access to the fish. Things aren't too bad, though, and I hardly ever play perfectly myself. We should seek to minimize these setbacks though as they add up over time, especially in the early game. No problem overall Rodent and good job on exploring so far.

Unfortunately, the placement means we don't have access to the furs. Is it worth building culture to try to capture them peacefully? If we are planning on pointy-stick research, then clearly no. But we seem to have a reasonably isolated start, so are we looking to go to war right away?

I think it makes sense to war soon, but perhaps not right away. This map does have some strategic advantages for us it seems with such a narrow front and it does appear an ally or two will be helpful in dealing with the Iroquois. Hopefully, we'll make some more contacts which will lower the value of the techs the ai has while our hopeful monoploly on CoL will retain its full value. I still expect we'll be at tech parity with trades if we get this and gain more contacts. Then we can see if the ai already has philosophy or not to decide on what to do next.

 

[anaxagoras]

I notice that Northen hasn't posted in this thread since it opened. I hate to waste a perfectly good weekend, so as "next up" I'd like to take the set if we don't hear from him by tomorrow. I already know that my play time will be scarce throughout most of next week, so a swap would be really handy for me at the moment.

Of course, if Northen is around and wants to play this set, I'm totally fine with that.

 

[Northen Wolf]

I did not understand that it was my turn, skip me please. I am still having problems installing civ 3 on my new laptop. (I mentioned it in already closed thread)

I think we should build culture in Notthingham and we need some defense there, as that'll be first spot Iros will attack. I would not worry about furs, sooner or later we have to declare iros.

Settler should target incense area. In my games (where I had big secure or almost secure area to fill) I made a straight line of cities and then used roads connecting the cities to move settlers more effectively.

 

[Optional]

Our next plans are not very clear yet. Where will our next towns be? I still favor cramming 2 towns on the river, even if that means that they're CxC of each other. Is there anything against that?
The first town could go on the plains, 2 or 3 tiles further SW, and can then work the sugar. There might be competion from London and York for working the Sugar (I forgot how things looked on the save), so we could do with a few more workers for improving more tiles. That might mean a need for a few more warriors as well, to protect our workers against barbs.
The Incense town would come second for me, as a town there doesn't have any decent tiles to work yet, and 3 more tiles need roading to connect the Incense.
Both those those towns I would give a barracks. Perhaps building a few regular warriors first, depending on the need.
I'm not sure what to do with Nottingham. The current warrior build seems fine to me. Maybe the town could do with walls as well.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Here's a screenshot showing our next four towns as has been discussed so far. I see nothing wrong with City 1 and 2 being CxC in this map situation.

York will need the sugar irrigated once we get out of despotism to be at +5 food, but City 2 could use the sugar for now when it can.

I'm pretty sceptical of the need for walls as I never build them in SP. As war is inevitable on the Iroquois any offensive units will be gathering in Nottingham as this is a short front and will both help prevent flips and lead the attack or counter-attack against the Iroquois. I also hardly ever build a defensive unit and am a pretty firm believer in the best defense is a good offense in C3C, preferrably a fast offense. I used to build defensive units for each city and my game improved quite a bit when I dropped this practice. There are cases where a few are needed, though, but I think carefully before building them.

 

[anaxagoras]

I agree that we need very few defensive units. Ironically enough, though, this may be exactly the right situation. With Nottingham the focal point of a very narrow front, a defensive unit or two there may go an unusually long way. I virtually never build walls, either, but in this particular situation, it might be OK. I wouldn't do either of those things first, though. We need a warrior at the moment. Eventually, Nottingham will also need a barracks.

I agree that City 1 and 2 should be settled in that order. The sugar is not terribly important until we are out of despotism, but I don't want to send an unescorted settler so close to a known barb camp. My present intention is to set York's next build to a settler, then begin workers.

I can transfer a warrior from London to York to keep the research rate where it is for the moment.

Incidentally, every opponent we know about has at least six towns, and the Iroquois have ten.

Since we don't have complete agreement at the moment, I won't play tonight. However, if I don't get to play by tomorrow night, I may not get another chance for the rest of the week, so get the comments in now, please.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I trust your judgement, Anax. Do what you think is right.

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

I'm in agreement with your plan as well for the next turn-set on all points. Good catch that the Iroquois have more cities. It appears they may not be as cramped for space as I thought they might be and their agri trait is benefitting them. We'll have to see, but a bit of defense may be needed before offense in this situation. This is looking to be an interesting pangaea map so far.

 

[Elephantium]

lurker's comment: I'd move New City #4 1 SE so that it lies on the coast.

 

[TheOverseer714]

lurker's comment: I'd move New City #4 1 SE so that it lies on the coast.

Those off the coast spots do kind of suck, especially for seafaring tribes. Good point.

 

[anaxagoras]

Noted. I don't think that is likely to affect my set, but we will see.

 

[Optional]

Wait a minute, don't forget the reason we planned city #4 on that hill is to be able to irrigate the southwest of our empire.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I guess we'll have to bite the bullet on that one.

 

[anaxagoras]

I completed my set, or at least as much of it as I am willing to do at this point. Very detailed log follows.

Spoiler :

OK, save loading, text editor running. Survey:

London (3) - Growth in 2, settler in 6
York (4) - Growth in 7, granary in 4 (will riot without a change)
Nottingham (1) - Growth in 7, warrior in 7

Research 80%, lux 20%. CoL in 17 at -1 gpt.

Military:
1 settler
2 workers
4 warriors
1 curragh

All units are regulars. There is a Goth encampment "near London". Well, OK. A ways away from London, but we don't want our unescorted settler to stray too far.

Goals - Expand; build barracks if possible, units if necessary.

Turn 0 - 1750BC:
Move warrior from London to York to keep the peace.

IBT:
-

Turn 1 - 1725BC:
Worker finishes road, moves to sugar.

IBT:
-

Turn 2 - 1700BC;
Settler reaches City Site 1.
Exploring warrior uncovers two barbarians.
London grows, but commerce grows enough to keep everyone employed.

IBT:
The Jutes make a veteran out of our warrior.

Turn 3 - 1975BC:
Settler founds Hastings, begins barracks (40).
Injured warrior fortifies to heal.

IBT:
Goth warrior approaches Hastings.
York granary -> settler (5).

Turn 4 - 1650BC:
Mine completes at Nottingham. Worker to forest N of town.
Research is now costing us -2gpt, CoL in 9 with 18 in treasury.

IBT:
Nottingham warrior -> barracks (20)
Iroquois begin Pyramids. Agri with unlimited granaries. Just what we need.
Blast! I counted wrong and I'm one shield short on the London settler!
Magyar warrior appears.

Turn 5 - 1625BC:
Shuffle warriors to get a defender at Hastings and still keep the domestic tranquility.
Nottingham worker starts chop.
2nd worker moves SW of London.
Exploring warrior uncovers wheat.

IBT:
London settler -> warrior (2)
Goth warrior does not attack.

Turn 6 - 1600BC:
London warrior/settler heads for incense. May not be able to make it with barbs in the way.
Hastings warrior fortifies.
Exploring warrior uncovers Jute camp "guarding" GH.

IBT:
Goth horseman shows up W of hastings.

Turn 7 - 1575BC:
Warrior/settler move to Hastings and fortify. No sense being a target.
Exploring warrior pops GH. Naturally, all we get are angry Phoenicians.
Hire geek at York to keep from raising lux rate. CoL now in 5 at -2 gpt (12 in treasury).

IBT:
Phoenicians make our explorer elite...then kill him.
London warrior -> settler (6).
We get treasury warning.
Stupid barbs don't attack and another barb warrior appears. Shoot. We'll have to sit tight.

Turn 8 - 1550BC:
Curragh confirms that the landmass to our south is an uninhabited island.
Hiawatha learns CoL. So much for our monopoly, but the good news is, the other guys all have the same techs.

IBT:
Chop completes at Nottingham, uncovers BG. Barracks now in 7.
Iroquois settler/warrior pair moves onto our land.
York settler -> warrior (2).
Barbarian horse moves S, maybe our settler can make a run for it.

Turn 9 - 1525BC:
Worker at Nottingham begins road.
Warior/settler at Hastings begin circuitous approach to incense.
Settler from York begins move to northern river site.
Temujin has Map Making.

IBT:
London's cultural influence expands just in time to block Iroquois settler from founding on the spit.
Another barb horse appears. Not good. What's the barb setting on this game? The bloody things are everywhere.

Turn 10 - 1500BC:
Warrior moves from York to Hastings, settler retreats back to Hastings.
Warrior moves to hills to provoke barb attack. That may be a mistake, but I need to take a risk to free up the area.
Settler at London has to hold.
Curragh crosses back to mainland.
Research down to 30%, CoL in 1 at +7gpt.
Rome and Mongols have both acquired Map Making, but not CoL. Germany has neither.

IBT:
Stupid barbarian horseman redlines, but beats our warrior.
NOW the Goth horseman leaves.
Meanwhile...we learn CoL, head to Big Picture:
Trade CoL, 6 gold, and 7gpt to Caesar for Map Making.
Trade MM to Bismark for WC, Wheel, and 29 gold.
Trade CoL to Temujin for BW, CB, and 14 gold.
Trade MM to Hiawatha for Masonry, Myst, and 22 gold.
Trade CoL and 5 gold to Bismark for Mathematics.
Trade Math to Caesar for IW and 10 gold.
We could trade Math to Hiawatha for 23 gold, but we hold out hope that he'll get HBR instead of Math, and we'll be able to swing a better deal next turn.
Set research to Currency in 50 turns at min, +5gpt. We'll hire a geek later, and reset rate to zero.
York warrior -> worker (2).

Turn 11 - 1475BC:
There is iron NNE of incense and SSE of Hastings.
There are horses to the far NW and on the SW coastal plains.
We move aggressively with warriors and settler toward city site NE of incense to capture both the lux and the iron.
A slip of the finger later, and a warrior in York has used a turn.
We cover worker with warrior, leaving Hastings open to a raid thanks to the slip. It is worth it.
Second settler moves S to York to southern city site, and second iron source.

We double-check trades: Germany has iron, but noone else does. Nobody - not even the Iroquois - have horses. The southern island has both.
We trade Math to Hiawatha for HBR and 29 gold.
We are at tech parity with everyone.

I should have stopped before moving units. I will stop now. The team really needs to weigh in at this point.

What now, folks? Lots of decisions to make here. As noted, I intend to move the incense city site to the hill on the river between the iron and incense. I kept having to dither with the settlers, thanks to all the barbarians who just decided to camp out next to us, so I'm a bit behind with the towns. I moved S with the second settler to try to avoid some of the traffic and to pick up the second iron as trade bait. The original hill site works fine for that.

What do we do about the Iroquois? We can't let them have horses, that much is clear. Can we prevent it without starting an outright war?

I don't have time to upload a screenie at the moment. If someone would oblige, that would be much appreciated. As I mentioned, I won't have much time over the next couple nights. Save is attached. I assume we will just move on with the next turn set at this point.

 

[ThinkTank]

What do we do about the Iroquois? We can't let them have horses, that much is clear. Can we prevent it without starting an outright war?

Top priority is to block the northern passage (3 warriors) blocking any additional Iroquous settlers. If you manage that, this isolated Iroqouis settler will just found a town for you, as it cannot be effectively defended by the Iroquois due to the blockade. Also, even if it connects horses, it will be a corrupt unconnected city for them, as you will control the roads to the Iroquois empire.

War now that you actually have to fight is too early. I would stongly suggest a phony war with the Romans, allying the Iroquois. Not likely you will see any action, but it will keep the Iro's busy, and distract them from doing more useful stuff, like expanding in your territory. It is also a preemptive measure against the reverse scenario: Rome declaring on you with an alliance with the Iro's.

 

[anaxagoras]

We probably have enough gold to build an embassy or two. I don't think we'll be able to afford any alliances, at least not right away. We shot most of our value on tech trading.

Also, Rome is the one Civ we don't want to declare against. We are on the hook for 7 gpt to Caesar. A gpt deal was the only way to secure Map Making, and MM was a key element of the trading.