SGFN-06: Brits in Space

TheOverseer714 · Sep 30, 2008

I set the barbs to Roamiing, but I think that was a mistake. I think for DG or higher, Sedentary or no barbs is best. You live, you learn. Meanwhile, our settlers need escorted. Might we actually need Spears for that, the barbs seem to be winning a depressingly large percent of the battles. I think we need to block the northwest passage for sure and a phony war will probably be necessary, make it the Mongols or Germans since the Romans are on the payroll for now.

darski · Sep 30, 2008

Boy does that game play quickly or what? I checked the save to get a feel for the land and it seems like everything happens every turn... on steriods. Now I know why I play at Warlord. Much too rich for my blood. I can't wait to see what y'all do with this one.

:help:

Optional · Sep 30, 2008

That means I'm up. I think you stopped at a good moment, Anaxagoras. This is a tricky situation, and it's better to discuss first what to do next.

We are vulnerable. We've got 4 towns, 2 workers and 2 settlers, while only 5 warriors for protection. 8 things to protect, 5 units to protect them with. In the pressure we're under, I think that's not enough.
My views on the builds:
* Hastings: has got 8 shields invested in a barracks, can change to a warrior.
* London: has got 18 shields invested in a settler, can change to a spearman with only 2 shields waste.
* York is set a worker with no shields invested, probably we need a warrior first.

I agree with Thinktank about blocking Iroquois settlers. Or I should say Thinktank is agreeing with me, because he's almost duplicating an earlier post of mine

.
For a blockade it would have been nice if we had built a few warriors earlier, but we can even still block the settler pair that's in our territory now. What is needed for that is that we use the warriors from both York and London, and that London is switched to a spearman. That would leave both London and York undefended for 1 turn. London is under immediate pressure of a redlined barb horse; I would chance to attack it with one of our healthy warriors that are currently protecting the settler.
If we let the Iroquois settler through, it'll go to the horses resource, and then the Iroquois have horses - the connection is through our empire, but as long as we're at peace with Hiawatha he will have horses. On top of that, it might leave us without horses, because what with prevent an AI galley from going to the other horses resource? So it's worth some effort to try and block Iroquois settlers. That's how I'm viewing it at least, but I would welcome input from others.
I agree with Anaxagoras that our incense settler can go inbetween the incense and the iron; that's safer for now.

About research I have no idea what to do next, and I haven't looked at the situation closely. Is it really useless to still try Philosophy? I find it difficult to make a call, but I would really welcome suggestions before I play anyway, so please comment.

anaxagoras · Oct 1, 2008

I think a change at Hastings is a good idea, and I'm fine with changing York, too.

I'm not so keen on changing the London build. We still have a ton of expansion room, even if it is barbarian infested, and I don't think we should slow down settler production. We are still way behing the AI in towns, and we need to build up our economy to be able to keep reasonable pace with the Iroquois. Also, we need to capture those resources to be able to build advanced units and to have trade bait for some of the other civs.

But I agree that we definitely need more units, and I am OK with focusing everything except the settler pump in that direction for the very short team. I will help a lot when the barracks in Nottingham completes.

Also, please remember that I was a little late in stopping my play - all the moves in the current turn have been used. If anyone can post a current screenie, that would be much appreciated. I won't be able to for quite awhile, still.

Oh, and I meant to say that I think Roaming barbs is fine. We just are getting hit hard because of the geography. But that same geography is working to our advantage in staking out territory, so it is all good.

anaxagoras · Oct 1, 2008

Oh, and one other thing: I think a blockade is likely to be ineffective. At the very least, they will be sending galleys around the choke point to settle behind us. At worst, they just declare on us.

That puts an even greater premium on settling across the pennisula, I think.

Optional · Oct 1, 2008

We could actually keep the settler build in London and block with the settler. I favor blocking. It will only work for a short while, because quite soon the Iroquois will come with galleys, that's right. But we can claim at least that nearby horses resource before that happens.
I've never seen the AI declare because of a block. The human mind would think that way, but not the AI, it seems. More dangerous is an undefended Nottingham.
I would build a few warriors in London first, after finishing the settler. We have nowhere to go with our settlers right now, because of lack of escort.

Another thing to consider is perhaps an RoP with Iroquois, maybe not right now, but soon. The Iroquois are likely to declare war on someone soon, simply because they're strong. If we pay the Iroquois a couple of gold per turn for an RoP, they're likely to decare on someone else.
I'm not in favor of declaring war on Mongols or Germans, and setting up the Iroquois against them, because Mongols and Germans are both too far away. It wouldn't have much effect.

I agree with you, Anaxagoras, that it's our geographical position that gives us barb bother. On Emperor it wouldn't have been different, except that the barbs on Demigod are a touch stronger.

Ironically, with the AI being up Code of Laws first, we would have had a decent chance sealing the Republic slingshot had we researched Philosophy first. Choosing the right research path remains a gamble!

Optional · Oct 1, 2008

anaxagoras said:
Also, please remember that I was a little late in stopping my play - all the moves in the current turn have been used.

You're right, I had missed that. None of our warriors can take out that barb horse. Hastings is gonna be sacked in the interturn. No drama, hopefully he'll just take some gold, and that's it.

Optional · Oct 1, 2008

I would probably buy an embassy with Iroquois before having Hastings sacked, that way we lose less money.
I see now we don't really need the settler as a blocking unit, we can let the Iroquois settler come 1 tile further and still be able to block him with just using warriors. It's a bit like a game of chess this.

I made an attempt at a dotmap. It's clear that I haven't done this kind of image editing before, I can improve on my skills; I need to find out where I can find the colors and stuff.
The settler from York I would send via Hastings by the way, then it can get escort from one of the warriors nearby. The warrior currently at York would be needed to help block the Iroquois settler pair. If the York settler goes to the hill I pointed out, it can immediately work the sugar, and the town can channel irrigation to the southwest. It's getting quite tight around Hastings in this setup, but as long as other towns are placed a bit further away it's not so bad.
The settler now in the works at London would probably need to wait for another warrior to be built there for escort.
I pointed out where the bonus grasslands under the forests are, I would favor chopping those.

I'm open for suggestions, as always. If there's a strong call for something different, I'll do something different.

TheOverseer714 · Oct 1, 2008

Even if we can't move the settler immediately, I say continue that build. At Demigod, growth is critical, and if you get outgrown, you are toast. The best way to combat barbs is to settle the land, as barbs are like mushrooms, they grow in the dark.

PrinceMyshkin · Oct 1, 2008

CoL is worth much more than philosophy and we would have had a tough time trading for it on the IBT, but it might have been possible. Its just one of those games where the ai researches a bit differently and the Iroquois have gotten a nice start. I think we should still go for philosophy at max science and when and if the ai gets it trade some money for the rest of it and start a run on republic. Another possibility is going for literature at max and then trading for philosophy when the ai gets it. After we get philosophy either way we should go for republic. More contacts would be nice as well.

It's a bit too early for embassies and alliances, imo. I agree we should keep London on settler building and we do need more workers after a couple of warriors. We'll have those barbs tamed soon enough once a barracks comes on line. Try getting a unit out ahead in the fog and take the fight to the barbs a bit, then settlers can follow behind. Of course, be careful and take any action you feel necessary to protect them, including retreat and taking an mp out of town. If the team decides to build spearmen I won't object too strongly, but I'm still skeptical of their value and have had a great deal of success without them.

Do you not have the latest build of CivAssistII? You shouldn't be able to tell where a bg is under a forest if you do, as that was corrected in the latest build. I like your dotmap with city sites. The next four settlements should really limit the barbs area. Yes, go for the horses and try to block the Iroquois just a bit, but don't worry too much if they get through. I think we're doing fine so far with good discussion and nice trading for CoL, anax.

anaxagoras · Oct 1, 2008

Optional said:
I pointed out where the bonus grasslands under the forests are, I would favor chopping those.

I'm sorry, but how do you know that? This information is not normally available during game play. It smacks of exploit to me. My preference would be not to use this information.

As for the dotmap, the site between incense and iron is obvious. I'm not sure I like the site next to the sugar. The sugar is a BG, for all intents and purposes, and I don't think working it is valuable enough to justify crowding Hastings, especially not with all the mountains nearby. I think I'd rather go with the original location PrinceMyshkin proposed, 3SW of York. We can settle CxC on the coast from there, either on the hill site in your dotmap, or on the desert tile just to the SW.

The sooner we can get a settler up to the northern horses, the better. It is second only to the incense site in importance, I think. I'm even tempted to bypass the northern river site temporarily, assuming we can cobble together an escort. We need to take those off the market.

Other issues: 1. I think Philosophy is useless at this point. The AI is sure to research it. 2. How important is the blockade? We can't do it this turn, and it will take four units static or three units moving to block them off. Can we afford to occupy three combat units that way?

anaxagoras · Oct 1, 2008

About the research: Max science doesn't get us that much at this point, given that the Romans are on the payroll. Maybe I shouldn't have made that deal. Given that I did, I would favor a min-science run, and a plan to do some pointy-stick research. As long as the Iros don't get horses, we should be able to do that with out too much problem.

I started Currency, but Lit would be fine, too. We haven't actually made any commitment to the research path, yet.

Optional · Oct 2, 2008

PrinceMyshkin said:
Do you not have the latest build of CivAssistII? You shouldn't be able to tell where a bg is under a forest if you do, as that was corrected in the latest build.

anaxagoras said:
This information is not normally available during game play. It smacks of exploit to me. My preference would be not to use this information.

I agologize, but I didn't realize these views existed. It seemed perfectly normal to me to know the properties of explored terrain. I learnt how to use CivAssist for this because of Gridlocked, the other SG I'm in. Othniel used it there, and it was not an item. It doesn't get mentioned in the list of exploits in 'How to play an SG', and CivAssist is mentioned there as a spoiler free help.
My version of CivAssist I've downloaded very recently. I downloaded from the only download link that I found at the start of the thread, and it gives bonus grassland under forest more easily than the previous version of CivAssist I had, because I don't have to blow up CivAssist to full size anymore to see them now.
So I apologize, but I didn't know it was an item.

anaxagoras said:
I'm not sure I like the site next to the sugar, the sugar is a BG, for all intents and purposes, and I don't think working it is valuable enough to justify crowding Hastings, especially not with all the mountains nearby. I think I'd rather go with the original location PrinceMyshkin proposed, 3SW of York. We can settle CxC on the coast from there, either on the hill site on your dotmap, or on the desert tile just to the SW

Dotmaps can be discussed. I had a closer look, but I'm seeing that my proposed site can work 6 tiles to the SW that are unavailable to Hastings. My estimation is that the town won't need more tiles soon, because an aqueduct will only become attractive after coal. Before that, I see this being a decent barracks town at size 6, without competing for tiles with Hastings. PrinceMyshkin's site leads to a more crowded situation, as it's closer to York, and would still need an extra town quite close to it to be able to work the coastal tiles.
I hope this picture will make things clearer; I made a more complete dotmap:

I hope this picture works, I'm new to doing this.
We want Republic, so I'll go either Philosophy or Literature. Probably I'll choose Philosophy first. I don't like to run a deficit at this stage of the game, because if a demand from the Iroquois comes in, we will lose a granery or barracks if we give in. So I'll probably research as fast as possible without running a deficit.
What I know is that you can best run research at max at Demigod, or not at all, because something inbetween doesn't work out, but we want Republic asap, so running as fast as possible seems to make sense here.

vmxa · Oct 2, 2008

Kibitzer:

I did not realize CAII allowed you to detect that a tile had a bonus, under trees. That would be an exploit as you would not otherwise know that. Likely not listed as such as I never seen anyone mention that before, so probably they did not know it.

anaxagoras · Oct 2, 2008

Optional: I didn't know it was even possible, so I didn't know it was an issue, either! No harm done. Don't worry about it.

All: I'm fine with proceeding at max non-deficit research if folks think it will help. I don't think we have a prayer of getting Philosophy first, though, so I think it is probably not worth it to self-research that one. If we do something the AI is less likely to research straight out, the idea would be to get it first (or at least before one or two other Civs) and then get Phil in a trade. But if we don't think we'll be fast enough to get trade bait, then Philosophy first is the best option. I'd like to hear other opinions on that.

I'd like to hear some other opinions on the dotmap, too. I'd still be inclined to move blue dot ESE and add a town in the plains (probably where you have the blue 3). I am an advocate of tight spacing. Some of the spaces you numbered will only be workable later or, in some cases, after we build culture, including most of the plains around your blue dot. But if others agree with you, I'm happy to go with it.

Optional · Oct 2, 2008

vmxa said:
I did not realize CAII allowed you to detect that a tile had a bonus, under trees.

It might be helpful if I explain how it's done: on the worldmap in CivAssist you can click on any tile, and then read the values of that tile under the worldmap. A forest will always give 1 food and 2 shields. But you can also find out the yield of that tile if treated differently; if you click on 'mine' you will see the yield of that same forest tile when it's mined. If it now says 2 food and 1 shield, then there will be an ordinary grassland tile under it. But if it says 2 food and 2 shields, there will be a bonus grassland underneath. It doesn't work like that for swamp and jungle, by the way.
Since I know about this function I'm using it, and didn't think anything about it. I consider Civassist as a legitimate expansion of the game interface. CivAssist gives lots of information that the game doesn't give: flip chance, how a government works out before you've even arrived there, tech cost, all sorts of info on corruption, etc...
In solo games I will continue to use CivAssist generously for all of this, but in an SG I have no problem adapting to what the team wants.

In my dotmap it would indeed be a must to give the lightgreen town culture soon, but the town deserves that anyway. It would become the best town in the south of our empire. I've gone for coastal placement as much as possible, that should work best. Visually the inland area looks a bit empty, but every tile gets worked. I believe this is an effective setup. Maybe it's a bit spacious for the early game? I would probably settle lightgreen dot and darkblue dot first, lightgreen because of immediate access to the deer forest, darkblue to deny the AI horses.

TheOverseer714 · Oct 3, 2008

I might tighten dark blue up by settling on the Horse, which also saves some turns on hooking it up. Otherwise things look okay to play.

Optional · Oct 3, 2008

TheOverseer714 said:
I might tighten dark blue up by settling on the Horse, which also saves some turns on hooking it up.

That's probably your set anyway, Overseer, and I see nothing wrong with that.
I'll play now. I'll stick to my dots, but I'll probably go for Literature, as there seems to be a slight preference for that.
I'm not sure how many turns I will play; I might pick a convenient crossroads moment somewhere inbetween 10 and 15 turns.

Optional · Oct 3, 2008

I played 15 turns. We're going a bit slow with our expansion and research, I find. The barbs are having great RNG luck, but a good thing is that our neighbours are slowing down.
The turnlog:

Spoiler :

PrinceMyshkin · Oct 3, 2008

Thanks for pointing out how the latest build of CivAssistII can show where a bg is located under a forest, Optional. I was not aware of this method. The newer build of CivAssistII doesn't tell you outright whether it is grassland or a bg under the forest, but switching to a mine does reveal the yield. I wonder why it doesn't work for marsh or jungle? I'll personally not use this method myself, but don't think it's too big of a deal.

Literature sounds fine as research and should get us philosophy and more. We may be a bit delayed in getting out of despotism, but not by much, and having literature already will be nice.

Edit: LoL. What a time for a crosspost.

SGFN-06: Brits in Space

Overseer

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Deity

King

King

Deity

Deity

Deity

Overseer

King

King

King

Deity

Deity

King

Deity

Overseer

Deity

Deity

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