Sgotm 01 - C F R

[akots]

Pregame inspection does not look good. Somebody was in a heavy builder mode. We are barely even in power with Russia! Which means that they have more units than us! But Thebes had been built almost all possible useless or sometimes useful improvements! Heliopolis does not have courthouse but is building Library for some reason while paying 3gpt for maintenance. I start there on courthouse immediately.

Ok, never mind since there is something wrong with the save file. We do have iron connected but it is not in the list of resources we have. We cannot build crossbowman or swordsman. Here is the screenshot illustrating the problem. Am I the only one to detect this?

Gyathaar pm'ed on the matters. Lets wait what he and AlanH have to say.

 

[akots]

... OK, i guess akots will now correct the sitaution at least a little bit during his turns

I think the game is beyond any rescue at this point. We can still try to play on though it will be tough to win by military means at all and there is no possibility of early Domination win as I see it. Lots and lots of hammers had been dissipated into nothing. We are not even first in gold output or manufacturing hammers. I'm not talking about population or food.

I am completely at a loss as to what can be done. I guess just build military and that is all. Nothing else but units and ships. We cannot even afford to build courthouses which we actually need already even now. The only good thing which we have is some cottages near the capital and bureaucracy bonus. It is really disappointing to see the game in this kind of situation.

These two oddly built cities do not help at all for the cause.

I'm just trying to remind to everyone that if you don't know what to do or what to build, then ask in the thread. Do not hurry here, there is enough time to play. If somebody is not comfortable with that and wishes to do at his own will, then it might be a good idea to play a single player game instead.

 

[akots]

... Gyathaar pm'ed on the matters. Lets wait what he and AlanH have to say.

OK, sorry about that, that iron is being traded to India for some reason apparently. Thank to Guathaar for pointing that out.

 

[Obormot]

I don't think it is as bad as you say. Russia may have many units, but propably it is just a lot of archers and a few axes. And we can still build maces without iron. Build only units and courthouses and we'll be fine.

 

[Witan]

Akots, read my post again,pls. I sold Iron to Indian! But now you can cancel this deal.

About production program. I not agree with that: we must builf army only. May be I mistake, that start lighthouse in Rostov. May be not. We loss 1st war with Russian 'by help with' slogan: only WC and WC again. And what? Ok, game is game, we play further.

So, I think, no, I am sure that we need powerful economics and big cities first of all. I am ready to say, that way to this goal is not simle and lighthouse in Rostov, for examle, may be isn't point in this way. But, I try to look on full aspect of game acording to my experience.

 

[akots]

... we need powerful economics and big cities first of all. ...

Well, there is a problem with that. We are not getting so far neither powerful big cities not strong economics. We are behind in everything against almost all AI including Russia. Not speaking about Inca which we are supposed to conquer. And judging by the setup of the cities and map we have little chance in getting to that goal as it stands now.

We obviously need more land and more resources which will bring us more happiness and health. This is the only way to go and no city improvements can compensate for that. To gain more land we need more units and units we don't have.

Since we are neither researching nor expanding faster than any AI, except again may be Russia, we are starting to fall behind going not into rapid military win but for some mixed up game which might very well end in battling with tanks against riflemen. There is little sense in doing this because the results of the battles will be similar if we somehow manage to battle with knights/grenadiers against archers/longbowmen. It just takes longer time to get to tanks. So, we are pushing the military action somewhat behind and as a result we are not getting to rapid Domination. We might be getting to slow and painful Domination eventually much later in the game.

That is pretty disappointing. It might be too late already and might be there is still a chance. I'll try to explore the latter possibility but as I've looked at the save, it seems that this possibility might be gone from the game.

... We loss 1st war with Russian 'by help with' slogan: only WC and WC again. ...

Well, there was a reason for that and a very simple reason: not enough chariots.

 

[Obormot]

Exactly. We didn't conquer Russia because we underestimated them and built too few chariots. And now we want to repeat this same mistake again?

I am 100% sure that in civ4 you should use the same rules as in civ3 for deciding whether to build a city improvement or not. You should not build all buildings that are usefull, but only the ones that are absolutely necassary. If you scroll through our cities you can see that only the capital is producing about 100 beakers. All other cities are producing 4,9,maybe 10 beakers, not more. This is a result of the choice we made: domination with maces and knights. It is too late to correct this now because we only built cottages near the capital.

As a consequence of this only capital needs science improvements like libraries and monasteries. Only capital needs happiness buildings to work more cottages, other cities will be OK just using the highest production tiles. Only capital needs a forge because other cities don't need extra happiness and the production boost also pays off only for the bureaucratic capital. All other cities don't need anything except courts and barracks.

For the same reason I think that building windmills is not a good idea. We don't need several beakers those provide, but we better max-out production soon by building mines. I would rather have a size 3 city working cow, and 2 mined plains hills (11 production) then a size 5 city working cow and 4 hills with windmills (+4 beakers, same 11 production, but delayed greatly)

---

OK, I think if we produce only cats and maces now we can overrun Russia and the Persia because we still have a tech advantage: maces vs. archers, but it will still take quite a lot of time because we need to build our army from scratch and then move all the slow units through all of our territory from north to south, put them on galleys, then unload them in Persia, etc. We should get Astronomy in about 40-50 turns from now if we go straight for it (after Construction) and we won't be able to kill Russia and Persia so soon. So I think that we should adjust our plans a little bit and learn Guilds before Astronomy to speed up the conquest of Persia (we will be able to get reinforcements there sooner). We can do optics before Guilds so that we have enough time to scout with our caravells.

We should also chop all the forest that is left in our cultural borders into troop production to build at least a small force quicly.

There is also another concern about galleys. To get to the strait between Russia and Persia we need to sail through Russian yterritory, but we cannot do it now because we will be teleported back as soon as we declare. So we can only start transporting boats after we declare. This means that if we don't want our troops sitting idle after conquering Russia doing nothing, we need to start builing boats in advance, so that we can start sailing to the tip of our continent as soon as we declare war (and i said already we better do it early to start knocking down Moscow's defenses with cats BEFORE our main forces arrive).

 

[Lexad]

We cannot transport boats through Russian territory now as they canceled the open borders. Other things correct. Although some extra cottages at flood plains could have come useful.

Don't forgeta bout Piter defense - it is very vulnerable being bordered with Russian land.

 

[Obormot]

I know that we cannot transport borders now. I said we have to prepair a few galleys to be ready to sail as soon as we declare war.

 

[Lexad]

To get to the strait between Russia and Persia we need to sail through Russian yterritory, but we cannot do it now because we will be teleported back as soon as we declare.

- I was referring to this part. Not that it's important, though.

On our Moscow expedition force - like 6 maces and 3-4 catas backed up with 5 WCs to finish the wounded should be sufficient. Although with Moscow standing on hill bombardment seems to reduce defense slower. We can waste couple of catas and even some WCs to weaken the defenders and save our longer-run maces.

But how large will be the initial force? Couple of maces and couple of catas? Then Russians will amass defenders - and they have the capacity, Moscow is the best production city of the continent. We'll have to plow through axes. But this is the price for retaining your army alive, as I see.

 

[Obormot]

6 maces is too much for the start. We need only 2-3 to cover the stack. We should start knocking down Moscow's defense bonus before our main forces arrive. Otherwise we will have the maces sitting idle waiting for the cats to bombard Moscow for a few turns.

 

[Lexad]

Yep, I understand. Speaking of 6 maces was like final attack squad. And I still think we need a couple of suicide catas.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

I think 2 maces is not enough for initial. After all is happened I would start with 3.

 

[akots]

OK, never mind, finally found some time to play.

Preturn: Artist in Heliopolis fired, working cottage after swapping with Elephantine. I though that city was supposed to work a cottage for the capital yet there is no cottage to work. Rostov switched from coast to a mine which will produce barracks 2 turns sooner. Hired a merchant in St. Petersburg also. Unpromoted chariot sent to Elephantine for military police duty.

[1] Worker finished a cottage near Memphis but the city cannot work it. OK, never mind, I switched Memphis to growth in 2 turns, no big deal here.

Thebes mace -> mace (courthouse moved down again).

[2] Elepnatine switched to workboat and worker started to mine a hill near it. At least some hammers. Deal with Gandi canceled. Now, iron offered again and we get for it pigs, dye, silk, and 3 gpt. That is quite a better deal, so I take it. Hence comes the question as to why did we build this temple? Thebes now can work rice and will grow in 11 turns.

Heliopolis Library -> workboat. Piter Courthouse -> galley.

[3] Gifted our southern workboat to India, it was worth 1 gpt.

Rostov barracks -> mace

[5] We learn Construction, Drama in 2 turns.

[7] Cyrus comes and offers Monarchy + 30g for Metal Casting. Deal is refused but Cyrus settled for Code of Laws which is promptly traded. Drama discovered, research to Compass. Memphis mace -> mace, Thebes mace -> Courthouse in 8 turns (I give up here), Heliopolis work boat -> Courthouse. Revolted to Hereditary rule. A couple of forest chops finished.

[8] Rostov mace -> cat

[9] Somebody discovered Theology.

[10] Memphis mace -> mace. Power graph is getting slightly better. We also became number 1 in MFG goods. There are 6 maces on the way to Russia, war can be started pretty soon. We are somewhat behind with catapults but they can be built in Rostov, there is another forest being chopped there to speed up the build. Two cats may enough for starters. Thebes will grow in 5 turns and then can work a mine which is being built by a worker. As son as Elephantine grows (in 5 turns), the city can work the mine on a hill to speed up the build of courthouse. Library will be probably never built there, not in the near future. The city is horrible because it is extremely low on shields. It is actually extremely useless city.

I agree completely with Obormot on the windmill issue. Please, do not build windmills, they are completely useless. Build the mines instead and farms if needed. And please also no more Libraries unless they come after courthouse and in some extremely rich in commerce and hammers city accelerated with chopping.

We can start war within a few turns, probably as soon as the first catapult arrives from Rostov. Piter can build galleys and these galleys then can be used to deliver troops to southern Russian cities depending on their cultural borders. Persia has a rather large army. Also, Indian culture is of big trouble there as well. The Persian cities we would capture there might be flipping right into the hands of Gandhi.

Here is a picture of the situation in the south listing troops in Piter:

 

[Lexad]

Wow, great development, especially great bargain with Gandhi.

I agree on Gandhi culture, it will be a problem. Might need to use castes and hire artists.

Thebes could also help with catas building - we're far from number reqired for FP, anyways

 

[Dynamic]

Why do we need workboat in Heliopolis?
And, Why did we not switch to Cats in Rostov when discovered Construction?

 

[akots]

Why do we need workboat in Heliopolis?
And, Why did we not switch to Cats in Rostov when discovered Construction?

Workboat in Heliopolis was built because of hooking up fish for Elephantine (already hooked up).

In Rostov, production to cats was switched as soon as a mace build there finished. We'll have first cat ready next turn and another shortly after that. Delay was 1 or 2 turns iirc.

Obormot is UP and Lexad is preparing.

 

[Dynamic]

To akots:
You wrote: [2] Elepnatine switched to workboat
Where is this boat?
And, we lost 3 Catapult turns in Rostov.

And, why is our Capital building Courthouse? We need Maces and Cats!

 

[Obormot]

OK, i got the save and will play tonight. Looks like you did a nice job prepairing for the war. I'll attack Russia as soon as our first cat reaches the border, so that we don't waste any time and knock the defense down ASAP.

 

[Lexad]

I've checked the save. The offensive is on the run - great. And we have 2 happy resources for 1 useless iron! By the way, we don't need the deal with Cyrus anymore.
We'll have to leave a mace in Piter, I think, to guarantee its safety - or leave WCs there until 2 turns before final assault when they can be rather safely brought SE, SE SW. But we'll have to do with 1 cat at the start and another one 4 turns later - if Obormot is going to start with one.
Our eastern cities can also switch to Galleys, even Elephantine when it's 4 and gets a mine. Thus we'll have up to 3 fleet builders (and after we're done with catas at Rostov - 4) with 2 major cities churning assault army (courts later).
Could we get 1-2 more workers in the meantime? Developed commerce cities near capital will serve us good when we need gold for supporting the empire, but for this they'd better start working them as soon as possible. This can be discussed if we see that our army exceeds our fleet capacities. Also Orange city could come in handy sometime.

Edit: revised my words on eastern fleet builders. It'll take 11 turns for galley from Heliopolis just to reach Yakutsk peninsula. That means we're stuck with Piter's capacities and need a mine there desperately - it needs same 11 turns to build a galley now, will take 8+ after - although it'll be fater with horses (7+ turns). So actually we could bring a galley from the East - but not more than one, I think. Thus we can put Heliopolis either to Court or army or worker building - as we need to cottage our lands, grab the gems and other goodies soon.

One more edit: dye is great for theatres - great job here! Fast pacifier.
Also, in 8 (7 if we put 1 citizen as scientist for 1 turn) we get 100% Great Scientist - good news. Bad news - Philosophy and Optics have higher science preferenca rating (8) than Astronomy (7) and there still comes paper (7 and I think it'll be proposed first) with Education (9!), and we need neither Education nor Philosophy. Should we use him as a great specialist (not too much w/o Representation)? Can really see no other useful options here - except if we decide to go for fast cavalry with scientist going for Philo and artist - for Nationalism (hello, Nationhood) and getting Gunpowder via Guilds. Or through Paper and Edu (science here) to Liberalism for free tech (Military tradition) with Nationalism from Artist and Philosophy by ourselves - takes much time. Also access to gunpowder.