SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

gskur · Jun 15, 2006

We already have 3 cities with Gundhi’s religions. So what’s another two? For 2 gold to Gandhi “for life” we could build temples very fast, and that’s another happy face in a city. But I was reading that the team does not want this to happen. Agreed. I don’t think we should spread any religion since we have HR.

(1) 470 AD
Therefore, I am disbanding the Hindu missionary in Thebes (I am not sure about the unit maintenance, but let it out of the way...), and I am removing the Hindu Missionary(1) from Elephantine’s building and starting on Lighthouse(5) and then Hindu Temple(4) as long as it is a Hindu city anyways. This will give us an extra F from the clams and a happy face for the next citizen in about 10. This one will work the mine to be built on the last plains hill there. The city will have no food surplus at that time and will be content.

Moving a chariot from Pi-Ramesses to Moscow, moving a chariot from Giza to Memphis. Inserting 3 chariot(4) above Market in the Thebes’ build queue.

In Thebes I stopped working both of the 3-hammer mines, moving one of the citizens onto the 1N2W cottage (+2G) and another is a second Scientist now (+3 science , +3 GPP). Market is due in 10, growth--in 15.

In Moscow inserted Courthouse at the top of the queue

Changed sliders from 54(-14/Turn) 60/0/40 to 54(+3/Turn) 40/10/50 to take advantage of Theaters in Thebes, Memphis, and Moscow, at least until the chariots arrive. A happy citizen in Thebes goes to 3H mine and chariot now are a 3-turn build, in Memphis we work the flood where the cottage is being built, in Moscow we work the forest to speed up the courthouse by 2 turns. Construction is due in 8.

There is a huge gap in Indian territory by the barb city. Why not settle there?
There is room for 2 cities! As for the cultural pressure from Gundhi, it is we who are Creative (so is Cyrus, BTW), not he! Just look at the Indian city S of the barbarians: size 4 and still 9 squares only...

Spoiler a screenie :

I could try to, maybe, capture the barb city?! Two chariots is not enough, normally, but... what do we have to lose?

(2) 485 AD
Cyrus adopts Organized Religion.
Theatre is completed in Heliopolis. Started on Market.
We are going to try for settlements on the second continent, in the northern part where the barb city is now. Inserted Settler(7) at the top of the build queue at Memphis. Even if it will not work out there, we can use this settler to plug the hole SW of Moscow, which Cyrus will likely use to settle a foothold on our continent.

Any thoughts on whether to attack Libyan with 2 WC or not (see #385, below, for details)?

(3) 500 AD
Moved WCs to the Wheat tile NE of Libyan. There is a second archer there now, no promos, in addition to the other two defenders. This settles the need for reinforcements. I am taking Djet C2 (no he is renamed to Djet C3 now) from Memphis and Ben-Hur C2F1 from Thebes.

In Elephantine, set galley(5) to the top of the queue. This should save us a few turns on moving the troops. The galley that is returning home will pick up the first two WC in 5 turns, so they will arrive to Libyan in 14 turns from now.

(4) 515 AD
The fresh archer with no promos from Libyan attacked with 1.3% combat odds according to the Combat Log. Our WC survived with only 0.8/5.0 (bad luck!!!) points left and moved into neutral territory to heal.

WC01 CI built in Thebes. Sending him to Pi-Ramesses. Next WC(3) is started on.

These cows on the tip of the small peninsular SW of Moscow keep bothering me: N of them must be a very attractive spot for Cyrus! Moscow’s borders do not expand soon enough: its culture is 281/750 (+8/Turn). Should we settle there before he does?

(5) 530 AD
Nothing to report.

(6) 545 AD
Gandhi’s Golden Age has begun. His borders expanded too, so the neutral land is smaller now. Gandhi’s archer appeared, moving towards Libyan.

(7) 560 AD
Gandhi has completer The Great Library!
Gandhi has completer Notre Dame!
Construction is due in 2 turns.
The first two WC are loaded onto the galley and are on their way.
WC02 CI is completed in Thebes. Keeping it here (growth in two!). Started on the next WC.
Cottage completed 1W of Giza. Giza grows to 2 next turn.
Cottage completed 2S1E of Memphis.
Theatre is completed in Pi-Ramesses. Started building a Courthouse.

(8) 575 AD
Apprentice starts a cottage 2N1W of Giza.
Switched village 2W of Giza back to Thebes and moved a citizen there from the farm just north of this village. Thebes grows next turn.
Moved Leonardo to 1W of Memphis to build a cottage.
Barb city Libyan built another archer. I repositioned the healthy WC to 1S1E of Libyan, across the river. The wounded one is healed to 2.3/5.0 by now.
Klose finished the mine 2E of Elephantine. I kicked him all the way to just N of Moscow to help Aaron with the sugar plantation there.
Galley is completed at Elephantine. Resumed the work on the Lighthouse(3). The galley is sent to the loading area W of Moscow. It should arrive there in 5 turns (MM: it is not on auto!)

(9) 590 AD
Cyrus showed up offering Incense for Clam. It’s a +1 happy face in every city, so I took it.
We know Construction. Started on Metal Casting(12).
Thebes has grown to size 11. The new citizen is working a mine.
Settler have been trained in Memphis. Resumed work on Courthouse(8). Settler moves towards Moscow.
Ka C2 from Alexandria, have grown bored, left the city and boarded the passing galleon. A settler is likely to join him a bit later.
Leonardo starts on cottage 1W of Memphis.
A plain archer left Libyan onto 1E tile (a provocation?). Merneith C2 is sitting 1S1E of Libyan (just S of this barb archer). Please note that Cyrus has a Horse Archer C1 on the same tile with us.

(10) 605 AD
Where did that archer go?! It’s gone. It must have attacked and Cyrus took it out with ease for the Horse Archer is at full strength of 6. Our wounded chariot is at 3.3/5.0 and it is going too slow. I am going to move it with the other one: it is in “friendly” territory so the healing should go faster. Libyan is back to archer CityDef 3 and a warrior.
A new WC03 C1 moves from Thebes towards undefended Giza. Thebes resumes work on Market(7).

(transitional turn) 620 AD
Someone attacked the barb city. Must be Gandhi from the North (it is not lit up for us), for Cyrus is as it was. But the barbarian CityDef 3 Archer is down to 1.3/3.0. It is clearly “the bad news” meaning we cannot wait any longer and “the good news” because we have better chances now, even with a wounded WC. I am going to attack now. Bad luck! The healthy WC killed the warrior and is 3.4/5.0; the wounded WC withdrew from combat at 1.1/5.0 with the archer without inflicting ANY damage. And we were so lucky with the Russians!

Even if we are not going to get the barb city (it was a long shot to begin with anyhow), we should still proceed with settling in that neutral space by Gandhi E of the barb city.
The settler needs to be loaded onto the galley the next turn BEFORE the galley moves.

The galley with 2 WCs is now 1N1E of Bombay. I planned to unload it 1W of Bombay. Same would work for the second galley with WC and Settler.

1. Thebes is building Market(6) for +4 or 5 gold/Turn.
2. Memphis is building WC(2). See reasons in “Sliders” below. Courthouse(6) for +2 gold/Turn is queued in and then Market(12) for +4 gold/Turn. Memphis can use another 4H mine, say 2N of it. A cottage(4) is being built.
3. Heliopolis is building Market(13) for +2 gold/Turn. Courthouse(17) is queued in and will be needed!
4. Moscow’s queue is Courthouse(2) for +3 gold/Turn and then Market(8) for +2 gold/Turn.
5. Elephantine has 3 turns left in the temple but it is not critical now, so I started it on Courthouse(9).
6. Alexandria finished a workboat that was queued in from a long time ago. It started on Courthouse(30). Not good. I just borrowed a mine from Elephantine and it is Courthouse(20) now--better. I would start building a cottage 1S1E of it to catch up with the next size increase. Aaron and Klose will build it in time after they finish building and connecting the sugar plantation NE of Moscow in 3 turns.
7. Pi-Ramesses is building Courthouse(19) for +3 gold/Turn at present size. Sugar plantation(5) is being built.
8. Giza is building Granary(4). Courthouse(17) is queued in and will be needed! A cottage(5) is being built.

Metal Casting(10) is being researched.

Sliders are at 40/10/50 for 61(-3/Turn). Memphis will complete WC in 2 turns. Park it in-place and change sliders to 40/0/60 for +5 or 6/Turn and no unhappy faces. As courthouses and markets become complete, there will be an opportunity to increase research.

Cyrus is +1 with us now, Gandhi is +4.

Download Saved Game

Spoiler "Session Turn Log from 470 AD to 620 AD" :

Goodenuf · Jun 15, 2006

Maybe pop up a screenie so we can have a look? Sounds intriguing.

The first reaction would be the maintenance costs of a remote city may be excessive , plus the culture pressures from Ghandi would be a challenge. We'd have to culture proof that city.

But I like the idea...

Goodenuf · Jun 15, 2006

Thx for the screenie!

What exactly do they have for defense (the barb city, I mean). It is actually a great idea to place the 2 cities there since Ghandi can't attack us. We culture the cities to death to effectively choke that part of the continent; It's really the best (and perhaps only) weapon we have against them. If we can cause the cultural revolts to gain even more (e.g. if we can get a sistine chapel built there...).

I like it.

My opinion is we go for it. Better us with that territory than Ghandi. It looks like a great opportunity.

Would love to hear other opinions, of course...

Doom Train · Jun 15, 2006

I think it ll be better to use our excess chariots to take barb city.

gskur · Jun 15, 2006

We do not have an excess of chariots, unless you mean the two (same tile) in the screenie. I am actually building a few now (see the report for the first turn above. The barb city is defended by two units I've seen in the first turn (the screenie is from the second turn): an archer with City Defense III (Gandhi’s horsehockey work, no doubt!) and a warrior with no promos. The two WC we have there are CII. The city has walls. I would like to know the chances, but I think they are lower then I would prefer (would be great to have, say, 90%+), maybe something like 1 in 3, I'd guess.

To bring reinforcement over will take about 12 turns. To build a settler in Moscow will take 8 turn (faster with whipping) and to bring it over--another 6. Our friend might beat us to it… or he might not…

Merum · Jun 15, 2006

gskur said:
@Merum
Gandhi has both Hinduism and Judaism. We did not discover Buddism. We have only one Buddist city. There is a Hindy missionary (did we build it?) in Thebes ready to convert the city. I am confused, as you might have guessed by now...

@gskur: I didn't say we discovered buddhism. I said it we got it first, as in before the other religions.

Either way, Ghandi has the Kashi, and any hindu cities we have give him both money, and he gets line of sight around those cities. Hinduism is bad for us. I don't know who built the missionary.

If we can settle that open land, by all means, let's do it. Courthouse will need to be the first build though, as maintenance costs will be high. We should also try to get Libyan. If we can get a cat built (how long to construction?) it would help immensely with the taking of Libyan. I'd say it's worth re-opening borders with Ghandi if it gets us to the city sites faster.

Quick edit: That open land is a nice spot, with iron, dyes, and wheat that we can culturally overtake. It might actually be worth whipping a settler to get to it.

gskur · Jun 16, 2006

@Merum #386

Either way, Ghandi has the Kashi, and any hindu cities we have give him both money, and he gets line of sight around those cities. Hinduism is bad for us. I don't know who built the missionary.

True! But Gandhi cannot fight us or pass any of this info onto any other nation, can he? Now, how about the nation that discovered Buddism? ... Well, this is why I would like us to have no state religion, if it is not one of Gandhi's! We can build an extra military unit for Memphis to compensate for the one and only happy face we will lose in our entire country as a result.

Merum · Jun 16, 2006

gskur said:
@Merum #386
True! But Gandhi cannot fight us or pass any of this info onto any other nation, can he? Now, how about the nation that discovered Buddism? ... Well, this is why I would like us to have no state religion, if it is not one of Gandhi's! We can build an extra military unit for Memphis to compensate for the one and only happy face we will lose in our entire country as a result.

Well, Ghandi can trade tech with other nations. We don't know who he knows, but assuming he doesn't have caravels, then he doesn't know anybody we don't know, unless other nations have caravels and have met him. We certainly don't want him trading advanced tech to Huayna. In my mind, every gold piece he gets is a beaker we don't.

I'm just following conventional wisdom here as I know it, and bear in mind I'm only a "high prince" player, so I may be wrong. I just don't see any reason to give Ghandi any more money than he already has. We want to keep him weak, because we cannot declare war on him. That means we want somebody else to kick his ass for us. The weaker he is, the greater chance of that happening.

The goal of this game is to get the fastest diplo or domination win. In order to get diplo, we are constrained by the building of the UN, and then winning the vote. Therefore, the surest path to victory is the dom win. Personally, that's what I am focused on, and a Strong Ghandi doesn't help us in this regard. Also, Domination virtually guarantees us a UN vote. I think we should keep our eyes on the prize.

That said, this is a team game, and I am certainly on board with what the team decides.

By the way, I don't know if we should be building any more chariots, when we can be building axes and swords. IMO, they are far superior to chariots in every respect except movement points. Any hammers put into chariots are wasted, unless somebody can convince me otherwise.

Perugia · Jun 16, 2006

I think there has been some confusion over Religious policy but to my mind actually its very simple.

I fully agree that Hinduism and Judaism are bad for us. Particularly as we cannot go to war with India.

However Buddhism is good for us, we should not abandon developing Buddhism, we should keep it as state religion, and we should be actively spreading Buddhism to all our cities. This is why we built the monastery in Memphis.

The reasons Buddhism is good for us are: a city with a religion has less likelihood for another undesirable one to spread to it. Later with Organised Religion we can completely prevent other religions spreading to our cities with the state religion Buddhism.

And for those of you still wondering why we don't mind spreading Buddhism and possibly helping the civ that founded it is that our friend an immediate neighbour Cyrus of Persia founded it in Persepolis which we can capture :eek:

. Perhaps that is news to many of you!

Take a look at the map and observe that all the attack tiles are hills giving our besieging force a defensive bonus but Persepolis itself is not on a hill. We can land a bunch of catapults by sea and bombard the defenses then suiciide that cats and enter the city with swords & axes.

BTW Cyrus has not yet built the Mahabodhi so he isn't getting gold from us anyhow and we can bide our time possibly waiting until he has built it for us.

So to summarise -

KEEP spreading Buddhism to all our cities using BUDDHIST MISSIONARIES from Memphis - they are the Chinese looking ones with red robes.

DO NOT build Hindu missionaries in Elephantine - they are the Gandhi clones wearing white robes. But I don't see any harm in completing the part build Hindu temple there.

DO build Buddhist temples wherever you need one (just before the MPs ship out to attack Persia I would suggest) and for goodness sake build a Buddhist Monastery in Thebes for 2-3 more beakers per turn. Then attack Persia when the time comes possibly from two sides if we can establish the 'forward base' on the site 3East of Libyan.

Perugia · Jun 16, 2006

Trade

Edit Cyrus is willing to sell us Horseback riding and Archery for CoL and 40 gold (Ghandi would do the same so its fair).

We can sell rice to Cyrus for 3 gold per turn. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Cyrus is also selling us Incense for clam which is good (happy for health).

We also have a Fish for Cow deal with Cyrus but we have our own fish at Giza. I suggest we send the nearest workboat moored in Alexandria to Giza to work the fish. That will allow us to can cancel the Fish for Cow deal.

We are still selling our iron to Gandhi for silk. Maybe now is the time to reclaim the iron so we can build swords to attack the barbarians and build a force to attack Cyrus.

Gandhi has 2 gold and dyes to sell to us and we could trade gems or horses. We probably can use MPs at the moment to avoid the need for dyes but could do with his spare gold. Maybe let him have our horses.

Perugia · Jun 16, 2006

Units & Cities

I'm afraid that I agree with Merum that the time for additional war chariots is probably up as most cities will need bombarding so the extra movement is not essential. We should be investing in axes, catapults and swords. Axes will counter any enemy melee units we encounter while swords will cut down everything else. All axes and swords should be built in a barracks. Its not essential to build all catapults in a barracks.

We should scout the Persian lands to see the mix of there army.

The settler can board galley next turn. The other galley can move over and help shiip-chain the settler and its escort over to India.

Elephantine can grow in one turn if a citizen it moved from a plains hill to the coast.

Pi-Rameses's sugar plantation will be complete in 5 turns and then we should switch a citizen there to get some bonus food flowing into the granary. The worker can then chop/mine each of the 3 forested grassland hills to speed along the courthouse and sunsequent production there. That will still leave 2 grassland forests which can be left for hammers as there are 4 other clear flatlands in the fat cross.

Thebes builds our first Great Person in 3 turns 61% chance of Great Scientist for Academy in Thebes. 39% chance of a Great Engineer that we can ZZZ.

Culture slider is currently 10% but only stopping one unhappy person in Memphis. I expect it's more effective to reduce this to 0% for 2 or 3 turns until we have some more unhappiness due to various cities growing such as Moscow due in 2. We can probably shave 1 turn of Metal Casting doing this.

Dolphan · Jun 16, 2006

Got the save. Looks like the plan in brief is:

-Promote Buddhism (couldn't agree more, we'll be capturing the holy city in a bit)

-Scout Persia

-Secure the empty land in the middle of India as soon as possible, I'll cancel the iron deal and get some swords to deal with the barbs. War chariots are defunct, no point hanging on to a UU after its been outdated.

-Continue infrastructure building.

Playing tomorrow, further comments welcome.

Merum · Jun 17, 2006

@ Perugia: I believe our cats should be built in barracks as well, so that we can give them collateral damage promotions. Collateral damage is a brutally efficient force multiplier, especially when using suicide cats to storm cities. I know from experience on both sides that collateral damage can decimate a stack whether it's in a city or not, often allowing much weaker forces to then mop up a stack of far more advanced units.

Cats in cities with collateral damage can also mean the difference between keeping and losing the city on defense. A pre-emptive strike, even if the cats themselves are lost, can prevent an attack and then allow the besieging stack to again be mopped up efficiently, or at least withdrawn by the attacker.

Artillery is paramount,especially when behind on tech, and we should build bunches and bunches.

Trading for HBR and Archery would be a good trade, as we can then build a well-rounded combined arms force that if used properly, is a steamroller. Horse Archers are particularly effective for pillaging, and against enemy axemen, since the axes don't get the melee bonus against them.

Before pillaging an enemy city, we should consider the time it will take to take that city and make it our own. I don't like to pillage towns and villages, because once we take over, we have instant cash flow after the resistance ends. If we pillage it, we have to start all the way back at cottage. Simply placing a unit on the village/town will deny the use of the resource to the enemy, without destroying a valuable resource we can immediately put to use. Units placed such will also often draw defenders from the cities, making the city defenses weaker.

I used to be a classic "care-bear" builder. Now it seems I am becoming quite the warmonger. Go figure.

(PS: The fact that we will soon own the buddhist holy city was not lost on me.

)

Perugia · Jun 17, 2006

@Merum

You are right. I forgot about Collateral Damage promotions. The suiicde cats should have them.

I was thinking about Accuracy for the catapults that do not suicide for which 5XPs are needed. This promo reduces the number of catapults needed to take down city defenses leaving more of the others to attack.

So basically what I am saying is we can't have accuracy at the moment so yes buid cats in barracks and give them Collateral damage I.

Agree about not pillaging any improvement that is in the right place.

@Dolphan - When you get HBR the war chariot we are building might change to a horse archer saving the hammers invested, if War Chariots become obsolete. It definitely would if it were a normal Chariot but I'm not sure as we are Egypt.

I endorse the plan.

Dolphan · Jun 18, 2006

Turn 0, 620 AD - Send a workboat to the fish near Giza. Cancel the iron deal with gandhi, and swap horses for dyes instead. Trade CoL and 40 gold for HBR and archery from Cyrus.

Turn 1, 635 AD - Cyrus captures Libyan! We can think of him as keeping it safe from Gandhi until we want it I suppose.

Turn 2, 650 AD - Cyrus founds Sidon on the cows on the SW tip of our landmass:

Turn 3, 665 AD - We get our great scientist and build an academy in Thebes. Brings metal casting a turn closer. Gandhi's golden age ends.

Turn 5, 680 AD - Oops, turn 4 was so uneventful I forgot about it and have played an extra turn. Sorry guys.

Switch culture to 0 as it doesn't cause unhappiness and it allows us to break even on 50% science.

Turn 10, 755 AD - We get metal casting and switch to civil service for macemen. Its in 14 turns as of the save, unless people want to change it. Science is at 60 for -1 GPT. Our settler and chariot make landfall in India and head for the unclaimed land. Elephantine finishes its Courthouse, I've switched to a barracks as its a production city.

Turn 11, 770 AD - We work the fish near Giza, chariots have now had a peek at every city in Persia. Turn left open:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Fifth_Element_SG001_AD0770_01.Civ4SavedGame

Scouting

Cyrus has either an archer and an axe or an archer and a spear in every city. Two cities have two archers, one of which is Persepolis which has a city garrison 1 archer, a normal archer, and a combat 1 axe. Libyan has an immortal in it.

Perugia · Jun 18, 2006

Never mind the extra turn. I was hoping the Persian Horse archer would capture the Barb city for us!. OK. let's get the adjacent city founded ASAP while building for war with Persia.

What will our next Great Person target? A Great Artist will allow us to grab land on the other continent.

We will also need Machinery to build Macemen so its ca 14 turns to Civil Service and about 10 turns to Machinery (+50% science bonus at Thebes due to Bureucracy).

Perugia · Jun 19, 2006

Groin_Apologist (up)
Merum (skip until June 28th)
Perugia (on deck)
Goodenuf (skip July 6-10th
Doom Train
BrianS
gskur
Dolphan (resting)

Edit @Merum #398 & Goodenuf #400
The timeline is dragging compared to the CivIII SG I played. I think this might be due to far more intense discussions as a result of the deeper tech tree making each research decision more involved coupled with the switching production change such that hammers don't instantly get invested in a new build like shields did in CivIII again making each build decision far more important.

The special always war/peace rules also provoked much discussion.

Another factor is that the level of interest on Civ4 was such that the teams got 8 players, previous SGs I know had approx 6 players or less. Anyway these are not reasons to complain but to celebrate and I'm glad the the timeline is not an issue. Perhaps as we get more experienced and if or when we reconvene for SGOTM 2 we might agree a faster turnset. 48hr might be fun, 24hr is quick but possible if timezones are taken into account.

Merum · Jun 19, 2006

I'm still in China, don't leave until the 27th. I even get to spend my birthday here. :/ It's unlikely that I'll play this round, should be back for next. Sorry guys, my 650 Mhz laptop won't even hang with civ3, let alone civ4.

Dolphan · Jun 19, 2006

@Merum #396

Yes of course, I just tend to automatically go for CS first so I can get bureacracy and sometimes irrigation.

Goodenuf · Jun 19, 2006

Just a note in advance, I am unavailable from July 6th thru 10th. Summertime camping has kicked in. Given the current player schedule, it shouldn't be an issue, but you never know.

When I first signed up, I thought we may be 2 months tops, but now I see we could be at this for a few months yet. Not that that's an issue, but the timeline still is surprising. I didn't think a 3 week trip in August would be an issue, but now it appears that it is. So... I am also unavailable July 29 thru August 20 (yes, camping, but 3 weeks this time in our fabulous Kootenay region... highly recommend it BTW).

Do I even mention the 10 day business trip in late September??

SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

Chieftain

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Chieftain

Permanent Jet Lag

Chieftain

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Prince

Prince

Warlord

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Warlord

Prince

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Warlord

Warlord

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