Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
gskur said:
No, it just means that we should take another tech when we get it.
Since you've stopped, and the GOTM site is down, please post the save in the thread so we can all look at it.
SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
No, it just means that we should take another tech when we get it.
Since you've stopped, and the GOTM site is down, please post the save in the thread so we can all look at it.
Goodenuf
Warlord
Merum said:
Good on ya! My anniversary (18) is this Sunday, so that as well is a write-off (Civ-wise anyway
)Other than that I'm back in business, and so is Merum... what is the playing order now? I am around this weekend (except evening of Saturday and all Sunday... Monday is a stat holiday here), and I am gone (as noted earlier) from Thursday July 6th thru Monday July 10 (back for evening). I could get a set of turns in before the 6th... otherwise I'd have to wait to the 10th, and probably need some time to catch up.
Agreed on posting the save here in the thread; It'd be nice to have a look at it.
Does Ghandi have Astronomy yet? Have we established that? Astronomy is critical, but if we don't have exclusive rights to it yet, we need to determine (presuming we get to Liberalism first) what is available that is exclusive and leverage it to purchase Astronomy. I would be tempted to take Astronomy with Liberalism anyway given it's importance and cost to research.
----
DoH never mind... just read gskur's updated turnset. I need to remember to check back previous entries for updates... wish there was a better indication that entries have been updated.
Here is the last save that has not been uploaded yet due to civfanatics problem.
Below are re-published play-by-play notes, in chunks for your viewing convenience:
CRITICAL POINT! I STOP HERE. We can war HC now, and so can he.
UPDATE 8:05 PM CT 06-28-06 the saved game is here
Update 8:09 PM It's down again. Use my personal link (at the top of this post) if you what to look at it.
The saved game is here
Below are re-published play-by-play notes, in chunks for your viewing convenience:
Spoiler 1202 - 1226 AD :
Spoiler 1232 - 1250 AD :
Spoiler 1256 - 1268 :
Spoiler Current State of the Game :
UPDATE 8:05 PM CT 06-28-06 the saved game is here
Update 8:09 PM It's down again. Use my personal link (at the top of this post) if you what to look at it.
Spoiler Session Turn Log from 1202 AD to 1268 AD :
Spoiler 1274 - 1328 :
Spoiler Turn Log for 1274 - 1328 :
The saved game is here
Perugia
Prince
This is so frustrating I can't download the save at the moment.
1. I imagine you have all the non-MP units ready loaded on the galleys to land in Persia in 1 or 2 turns, right? To change and go east will waste loads of turns in extra moves.
2. Maybe I missed something but I would have thought that our galleys can't actually cross the ocean to get to HC. Can they?
3. I have no problem with a naval campaign using caravels to harass HC. If it happens your turn will end according to the rules I published.
FORGET MOST OF THE ABOVE I JUST FOUND THE HIDDEN SCREENIE
TRY A GOTO ORDER, are those tiles forbidden to galleys??????????..........
It's just gone Midnight here so I'm off to bed. Will read your responses at 8am.
I think we still need to go West and land our ground forces in Persia for the following reasons....gskur said:
1. I imagine you have all the non-MP units ready loaded on the galleys to land in Persia in 1 or 2 turns, right? To change and go east will waste loads of turns in extra moves.
2. Maybe I missed something but I would have thought that our galleys can't actually cross the ocean to get to HC. Can they?
3. I have no problem with a naval campaign using caravels to harass HC. If it happens your turn will end according to the rules I published.
FORGET MOST OF THE ABOVE I JUST FOUND THE HIDDEN SCREENIE
IS A LINK BUT CAN GALLEYS CROSS THE HC STRAIGHT - They can't if the two tiles outside cultural boundaries are ocean?
TRY A GOTO ORDER, are those tiles forbidden to galleys??????????..........
Spoiler Boring economic bit :
Spoiler Turn Order :
It's just gone Midnight here so I'm off to bed. Will read your responses at 8am.
@Perugia #484
Here is a clear result of being very tired. I look at the screenie now and fill like an idiot: No, galleys cannot cross just yet. Darn! So silly… Yet, the Inca city of Vilcabamba (pop. 1) will expand its borders soon enough, and then the strait will be crossable to galleys.
It is good that we have some time for we need to make sure we have adequate military left on the continent and that our navy is stronger.
Before we go to war, I’d like to have another round of building maces and cats so that we have a strong secondary force to land on Cyrus’ Copper. That’s another 9-10 turns till they are all loaded and in position. The main force heading for the capital I would like to position in neutral waters loaded on galleys 2S of the mountain, 4W from Persepolis. The secondary force—in neutral waters 2SE of Sidon. The galleys from the secondary force, after unloading, can quickly (in 3 turns) return for the second load and get to Tarsus, unloading on the 4th turn.
The Cast system is still useful for another 3-4 turns of GP growing at Thebes (1:2 GS:GE 407/450+16/t = 3 turns). Then we should switch at the first opportunity.
I'll continue for a few more turns. Progress report will be appended to my main post above.
Here is a clear result of being very tired. I look at the screenie now and fill like an idiot: No, galleys cannot cross just yet. Darn! So silly… Yet, the Inca city of Vilcabamba (pop. 1) will expand its borders soon enough, and then the strait will be crossable to galleys.
It is good that we have some time for we need to make sure we have adequate military left on the continent and that our navy is stronger.
Before we go to war, I’d like to have another round of building maces and cats so that we have a strong secondary force to land on Cyrus’ Copper. That’s another 9-10 turns till they are all loaded and in position. The main force heading for the capital I would like to position in neutral waters loaded on galleys 2S of the mountain, 4W from Persepolis. The secondary force—in neutral waters 2SE of Sidon. The galleys from the secondary force, after unloading, can quickly (in 3 turns) return for the second load and get to Tarsus, unloading on the 4th turn.
The Cast system is still useful for another 3-4 turns of GP growing at Thebes (1:2 GS:GE 407/450+16/t = 3 turns). Then we should switch at the first opportunity.
I'll continue for a few more turns. Progress report will be appended to my main post above.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I'm looking at the save now, and have some thoughts...
1.We can't cross the narrow strait and neither can HC. Our galleys would take 46 turns to reach the Inca territory right across. That means we are safe to war on Cyrus. When Vilcabamba expands, he'll be able to cross. We need to beef up our city defenses.
2. Byblos is already 89% Indian. I'm not sure the Valmiki Gambit will work, and it could be a waste of valuable GA resource we can use elsewhere.
I'm sorry for vacillating like this, but I'm not sure Libyan is a tenable situation for us long term. We should consider razing it to deny Ghandi of it.
3. Speaking of using GAs elsewhere, We'll need them at Bactra, Susa, and Gordium. Madras is a holy city, probably has a shrine, and is likely producing culture like a mad bastard. We need a GA farm running. If we take Susa without a GA there to bomb it, I estimate we lose it in <20 turns to Ghandi.
4. We should be building longbows for MP now. Regardless of the cost, additional war chariots do nothing to bolster our defenses, and we will be attacked by HC when galleons are available. I see longbows are already being built for defense. Good.
5. We've backed ourselves into a corner and even though we'll win the race to liberalism, we've lost the tech race around it. Unless we can get somebody to magically trade us Nationalism and Music, our choice of tech that nobody else has is limited to gunpowder. Somebody may even have gunpowder, given that we don't have engineering and wouldn't be able to see it on the trade table. Ghandi won't trade us nationalism (probably building Taj Mahal) and FDR won't trade us Music.
6.We have a tiny population lead on Ghandi and he has about a 2.5% world area lead on us. That will shift after the Persian war, but we need 64% for domination. Seems like a long road to go. We have to build the UN. That means we need great engineers, and we should probably head for Mass Media ASAP. Simple statement: If we don't control the UN, we WILL lose.
7. At least 1 team has finished by 1600AD. Is that even attainable for us? We should think in that direction, and plan accordingly.
Wife and I are both under the weather so anniversary festivities are postponed until Saturday. So, I'll post a bit more.
8. Culture has filled in W of Thebes, leaving only 1 square SW of Pi-Rameses available for outside colonization. Neither PR nor Moscow will expand soon, so placing a "hedge settler" there would be useful, probably.
9. I'd take Sidon first, so that we can use it as a caravel base. This will allow us to load our forces in town and unload them on the other side in a single turn.
10: We're simply not making enough money. We need markets, banks, and grocers. Printing Press will boost the gold output of our villages and towns. We can't keep up in research like this.
11. We should stage caravels in the HC strait to interdict galley-based invasion forces. Better to drown them than to let them land on our shores.
I didn't intend for this to be a pessimistic post, it just sort of worked out that way. However, I feel that it's an honest assessment of where we stand.
There are a few talking points. Let's see where the discussion takes us.
1.We can't cross the narrow strait and neither can HC. Our galleys would take 46 turns to reach the Inca territory right across. That means we are safe to war on Cyrus. When Vilcabamba expands, he'll be able to cross. We need to beef up our city defenses.
2. Byblos is already 89% Indian. I'm not sure the Valmiki Gambit will work, and it could be a waste of valuable GA resource we can use elsewhere.
I'm sorry for vacillating like this, but I'm not sure Libyan is a tenable situation for us long term. We should consider razing it to deny Ghandi of it.3. Speaking of using GAs elsewhere, We'll need them at Bactra, Susa, and Gordium. Madras is a holy city, probably has a shrine, and is likely producing culture like a mad bastard. We need a GA farm running. If we take Susa without a GA there to bomb it, I estimate we lose it in <20 turns to Ghandi.
4. We should be building longbows for MP now. Regardless of the cost, additional war chariots do nothing to bolster our defenses, and we will be attacked by HC when galleons are available. I see longbows are already being built for defense. Good.
5. We've backed ourselves into a corner and even though we'll win the race to liberalism, we've lost the tech race around it. Unless we can get somebody to magically trade us Nationalism and Music, our choice of tech that nobody else has is limited to gunpowder. Somebody may even have gunpowder, given that we don't have engineering and wouldn't be able to see it on the trade table.
Ghandi won't trade us nationalism (probably building Taj Mahal) and FDR won't trade us Music.6.We have a tiny population lead on Ghandi and he has about a 2.5% world area lead on us. That will shift after the Persian war, but we need 64% for domination. Seems like a long road to go. We have to build the UN. That means we need great engineers, and we should probably head for Mass Media ASAP. Simple statement: If we don't control the UN, we WILL lose.
7. At least 1 team has finished by 1600AD. Is that even attainable for us? We should think in that direction, and plan accordingly.
Wife and I are both under the weather so anniversary festivities are postponed until Saturday. So, I'll post a bit more.
8. Culture has filled in W of Thebes, leaving only 1 square SW of Pi-Rameses available for outside colonization. Neither PR nor Moscow will expand soon, so placing a "hedge settler" there would be useful, probably.
9. I'd take Sidon first, so that we can use it as a caravel base. This will allow us to load our forces in town and unload them on the other side in a single turn.
10: We're simply not making enough money. We need markets, banks, and grocers. Printing Press will boost the gold output of our villages and towns. We can't keep up in research like this.
11. We should stage caravels in the HC strait to interdict galley-based invasion forces. Better to drown them than to let them land on our shores.
I didn't intend for this to be a pessimistic post, it just sort of worked out that way. However, I feel that it's an honest assessment of where we stand.
There are a few talking points. Let's see where the discussion takes us.
Perugia
Prince
It's good to hear confirmation that galleys cannot cross to or from Vilcabamba just yet. Agree we should build defenses in preparation for HC attacking it won't be long until the culture links or he has galleons. Like the suggestion of using longbows as MPs now that Astronomy is out there.
BTW the mountains on the edge of our continent were clearly a hand modification to the map by the SGOTM staff to mitigate against the culture/galley feature which some conside a bug.
I'm more convinced we should surgically strike the prime Persian cities now and leave the stuff on Gandhis border until later. Agree with Merum we should set up a GA farm for the GP to follow the one due in Thebes.
I suggest we go for 'artists spam' in the GA farm mentioned above. The GA farm city should go -ve on food production (as long as it doesn't starve) while we are in Caste System. The GA farm should not be Thebes but should have a Theatre so 2 artists can be retained when we switch from Caste System.
I'm easy about changing the plan at Libyan - it might just be a distraction we don't need and culture bombing once may not be enough. In one of the GOTM I was in I captured the Greek capital and culture bombed it but it still flipped back eventually. Instead of razing Libyan how about we exile Cyrus there along with his government henchmen. Forcing the Persian capital there is a surefire way to ensure it won't flip to Gandhi.
If we intend to raze it or leave as Cyrus's "prison" then the units we sent there can capture the worker (should be easy due to the Gandhi culture pressure they must be on the border) we can also pillage any improvements for a few extra gold pieces.
BTW the mountains on the edge of our continent were clearly a hand modification to the map by the SGOTM staff to mitigate against the culture/galley feature which some conside a bug.
I'm more convinced we should surgically strike the prime Persian cities now and leave the stuff on Gandhis border until later. Agree with Merum we should set up a GA farm for the GP to follow the one due in Thebes.
I still don't get how Caste System is helping here. The 16/t is 2x 8/t base due to Pacifism. The base 8/t is coming from the hanging gardens (2) and 6 points from specialists. These specialists are enabled by the Forge & Library not Caste System.
I suggest we go for 'artists spam' in the GA farm mentioned above. The GA farm city should go -ve on food production (as long as it doesn't starve) while we are in Caste System. The GA farm should not be Thebes but should have a Theatre so 2 artists can be retained when we switch from Caste System.
I'm easy about changing the plan at Libyan - it might just be a distraction we don't need and culture bombing once may not be enough. In one of the GOTM I was in I captured the Greek capital and culture bombed it but it still flipped back eventually. Instead of razing Libyan how about we exile Cyrus there along with his government henchmen. Forcing the Persian capital there is a surefire way to ensure it won't flip to Gandhi.
If we intend to raze it or leave as Cyrus's "prison" then the units we sent there can capture the worker (should be easy due to the Gandhi culture pressure they must be on the border) we can also pillage any improvements for a few extra gold pieces.
I agree pretty much completely with Merum. I still think Libyan and Byblos are more effort than they're worth, and that domination is nigh-on impossible. We need the UN. Also, we need to start thinking diplo - it will take us longer if we conquer everyone and vote ourselves in. Can we get FDR to vote for us (this would be a major reason to ask him to attack HC, not Gandhi - mutual struggle)? What is the relation between FDR and Saladin? Can we get another joint war there? Can we strike a balance between getting FDR to love us and not letting him overtake Gandhi as our main competitor?
If we're still playing with the server down then I'll have to be skipped, my exams are critical at the moment. If not, I'll be able to play from Saturday onwards.
If we're still playing with the server down then I'll have to be skipped, my exams are critical at the moment. If not, I'll be able to play from Saturday onwards.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Dolphan said:
It's going to be difficult to strike a balance between FDR loving us and not being our main competitor if he's being our proxy army. If we get him to war on HC, we're going to want most of that territory for ourselves.
Basically, I think this is where we're at, strategy-wise.
1. We need to wipe out HC, preferably taking his territory for ourselves.
2. We need to wipe out Cyrus, also taking his territory.
3. There are three major players in the world, unless HC has something we don't see. That's us, FDR, and Ghandi. We need to choose who grows as our competitor for the UN vote. In the current world situation, that's likely to be FDR, as Ghandi doesn't start many wars on his own hook.
4.Whoever is going to be our competitor for the vote, it doesn't matter what our relations with them are. We need to be best buddies with the other one of the triumvirate, though.
5. Taking Cyrus' Coastal cities is a viable option, but keep in mind it will give us a double relation hit with his friends when we declare on him twice.
6. If we leave Cyrus stranded in Libyan, can he do anything to cheese relations between us and others?
6a. Since we cannot war with Ghandi it makes sense for us to compete with FDR for the UN vote. That way we can work diplomatic relations with Ghandi who we cannot war with anyway. Problem is, I don't know how to slow Ghandi's growth. If he wants to take over an island, he will, unless we have it under control already. FDR is a wild card, and if he decides to declare on us, our relationship is shot just that quickly.
7. We need a clearly defined goal we can measure against. I'll put one forward:
In the next 100 turns or so, we should be attempting to:
Take out Cyrus to the extent that we wish
Take out HC. HC must be gone or marginalized, because his votes will go to our competitor.
Work towards Mass Media
Figure out who our competitor will be for the vote, and cultivate the relationship with the other side while spoiling it between them and our competitor. Preferably we figure out a way to make FDR bigger than Ghandi.
Grow GA(3) to keep our ex-Persian holdings, and grow GE(2) to build the UN.
Beef up our homeland defense to the point where we are not terrified at the prospect of an attack, even from FDR.
Get our economy to the point where we can run 90-100% research
Those are the primary goals as I see them. This should culminate in the building of the UN, and us winning the vote. Can we achieve this goal? If so, how?Perugia
Prince
Dolphan. For those of us not so up on the relative merits of Civ4 victory conditions, including myself, can you explain why Dom is impossible and so Diplo is preferred at this point in time. I'll start with some basics that I know.
Domination: 2/3 of all land and 25% pop greater than any rival. If there's only one significant rival at game end (I guess Gandhi since we can't war with him) thats 75% of pop, less if 2 or more rivals.
Diplo: 2/3 of all pop voting for us. This does sound easier as long as a) we have a friend and b) can build the UN. Is there any more to the argument?
Domination: 2/3 of all land and 25% pop greater than any rival. If there's only one significant rival at game end (I guess Gandhi since we can't war with him) thats 75% of pop, less if 2 or more rivals.
Diplo: 2/3 of all pop voting for us. This does sound easier as long as a) we have a friend and b) can build the UN. Is there any more to the argument?
Acheiving the domination victory without being able to attack Gandhi is going to be near-impossible, because we have no effective way of denying him 1/3 of the land (or >25% pop, which may be even trickier). He will settle on spare bits of land, and once land is in his borders there's nothing we can do about it. The only way to do it would be to get someone else to attack him and win, or make significant gains. Then we'd have to attack them. I don't fancy our chances taking down anyone strong enough to carve a chunk out of Gandhi, and even if it did work, it would take a long, long time.
The key problem is becoming best mates with whoever isn't going to be the vote competitor while not letting them get big enough to overtake the opponent. Whichever, I think we have to get the friend involved in joint wars against HC and probably Saladin. If we do go for FDR, could we get him to declare on Cyrus? It wouldn't make a difference, but would get us diplo bonuses. If we then got him to help us with HC, he'd be high enough never to attack us, surely? The problem would be if he became the vote competitor. Although in that case we could always gift cities to Gandhi near the end to tip the scales.
The key problem is becoming best mates with whoever isn't going to be the vote competitor while not letting them get big enough to overtake the opponent. Whichever, I think we have to get the friend involved in joint wars against HC and probably Saladin. If we do go for FDR, could we get him to declare on Cyrus? It wouldn't make a difference, but would get us diplo bonuses. If we then got him to help us with HC, he'd be high enough never to attack us, surely? The problem would be if he became the vote competitor. Although in that case we could always gift cities to Gandhi near the end to tip the scales.
Perugia
Prince
Ok just been onto Netgear support desk and a very nice man from India managed to drive the problem down to a disabled 'wireless zero configuration service' that was stopping my PC getting an IP address.
Bad news is I have to go to bed now so won't get to load the save until tomorrow.
On the Diplo side note that FDR and Gandhi's favourite civic is Universal Suffrage. If we can switch to that then we get a bonuis of being able to build the UN with just one great engineer. The rest of the hammers can come from chopping (there were 6 forests around Memphis last time I looked), whipping all of the population plus making up the short fall from gold rushing using cash from trade missions.
The advanteage here is that one so much easily spam Merchants to get Great Merchant GPPs but it's not going to be very easy to get another Great Engineer whilst also getting some more Great Artists.
Bad news is I have to go to bed now so won't get to load the save until tomorrow.
On the Diplo side note that FDR and Gandhi's favourite civic is Universal Suffrage. If we can switch to that then we get a bonuis of being able to build the UN with just one great engineer. The rest of the hammers can come from chopping (there were 6 forests around Memphis last time I looked), whipping all of the population plus making up the short fall from gold rushing using cash from trade missions.
The advanteage here is that one so much easily spam Merchants to get Great Merchant GPPs but it's not going to be very easy to get another Great Engineer whilst also getting some more Great Artists.
@Merum #489
Good strategy points. I believe we should think about this in terms of our short and long term goals. Short term, our economy is in the toilet, and we are barely keeping up with the research we need to fight the near term wars.
With this in mind, we have 2 inconsistent research paths:
1. Economy/Military: Guilds and Banking for economy (which are also required for military path), then a long path to Assembly Line (with a possible interim goal of Rifling)
3. UN: Astronomy-Sci Method-Physics-Electricity-Radio-Mass Media
The UN path dosn't help us with either military or economy, both of which are important in the short term.
I vote we pursue the economic/military path (after getting Astronomy with Liberalism -- we're still on track, as no other civ has Education) and that we short term aim to Rifling (6 techs away). It picks up banking, printing press and replaceable parts, all of which help us with our economy and production. The only pre-req we will not have for Chemistry by taking this path is engineering, which all the other civs have and which we should be able to get by trade. Riflemen and Grenadiers are a nice fighting team.
It's then another lengthy path from rifleman to infantry, so when we get to riflemen/grenadiers, we can re-asses as to whether we need to continue along the military path or start to Mass Media.
Are we really able to count on any AIs vote in the UN? I've found this to be one of the most unpredictable parts of the game. My thought is that we should cultivate a friendship with FDR and see if we can get him to war with Gandhi as Gandhi is the only competitor over which we have no direct control. I'd love to see Gandhi seriously damaged. We can always war later with FDR after he's put the hurt to Gandhi.
This is obviously a warmongering view of the world. Not sure if it's sophisticated enough for a Monarch game
Good strategy points. I believe we should think about this in terms of our short and long term goals. Short term, our economy is in the toilet, and we are barely keeping up with the research we need to fight the near term wars.
With this in mind, we have 2 inconsistent research paths:
1. Economy/Military: Guilds and Banking for economy (which are also required for military path), then a long path to Assembly Line (with a possible interim goal of Rifling)
3. UN: Astronomy-Sci Method-Physics-Electricity-Radio-Mass Media
The UN path dosn't help us with either military or economy, both of which are important in the short term.
I vote we pursue the economic/military path (after getting Astronomy with Liberalism -- we're still on track, as no other civ has Education) and that we short term aim to Rifling (6 techs away). It picks up banking, printing press and replaceable parts, all of which help us with our economy and production. The only pre-req we will not have for Chemistry by taking this path is engineering, which all the other civs have and which we should be able to get by trade. Riflemen and Grenadiers are a nice fighting team.
It's then another lengthy path from rifleman to infantry, so when we get to riflemen/grenadiers, we can re-asses as to whether we need to continue along the military path or start to Mass Media.
Are we really able to count on any AIs vote in the UN? I've found this to be one of the most unpredictable parts of the game. My thought is that we should cultivate a friendship with FDR and see if we can get him to war with Gandhi as Gandhi is the only competitor over which we have no direct control. I'd love to see Gandhi seriously damaged. We can always war later with FDR after he's put the hurt to Gandhi.
This is obviously a warmongering view of the world. Not sure if it's sophisticated enough for a Monarch game
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Ni hao Brian! How's life on the other side of the world? I'm home now... did you see me wave when I flew over Taiwan? 
I agree that in the near term we need to get our economy on track, and keep up in military tech, else we'll get steamrolled.
I think we should trade paper to see what we can get for it, and when we get close to liberalism, trade education/philosophy to see if we can get guilds, and maybe even engineering. The downside to this is that it gives our opponents who already have a tech lead on us universities, but they will have them on their own soon enough anyway.
With the number of villages/towns we have, printing press will put us in good shape, as we'll get plenty of gold bonus for working them.
Given the dire economic situation, we have to improve that first, or the military won't matter.
I'm cool with Guilds/Banking/Rifling, But I think we should throw printing press into the mix and then get on the UN track. Otherwise, somebody else is gonna jump to that track and build it.
We'll get a free scientist if we get to physics first. We could apply him to the next tech on the path (if possible) or use him on an academy to boost research. Of course, the civs with astronomy could have already started on (or even have at this point) sci method.
Building a friendship with FDR won't help us, because we'll end up standing against him in the vote after he swallows the arabs. We need to be tight with Ghandi, I think.
I hate to say it but after the economic techs and maybe rifling that we have to switch to the UN path. If we don't get it, We'll have to be second biggest to be in the UN vote, and that means a hella lot of war. I don't think we have the time for that much war.
Votes can be predictable. At the very least, if you are higher in your relationship that your opponent is, you will at least not lose. The other party may abstain, but if they're friendly they'll usually vote you in.
So, we need to build our economy for near-term success, then gain some modern military techs for defense, then work toward the UN.
I agree that in the near term we need to get our economy on track, and keep up in military tech, else we'll get steamrolled.
I think we should trade paper to see what we can get for it, and when we get close to liberalism, trade education/philosophy to see if we can get guilds, and maybe even engineering. The downside to this is that it gives our opponents who already have a tech lead on us universities, but they will have them on their own soon enough anyway.
With the number of villages/towns we have, printing press will put us in good shape, as we'll get plenty of gold bonus for working them.
Given the dire economic situation, we have to improve that first, or the military won't matter.
I'm cool with Guilds/Banking/Rifling, But I think we should throw printing press into the mix and then get on the UN track. Otherwise, somebody else is gonna jump to that track and build it.
We'll get a free scientist if we get to physics first. We could apply him to the next tech on the path (if possible) or use him on an academy to boost research. Of course, the civs with astronomy could have already started on (or even have at this point) sci method.
Building a friendship with FDR won't help us, because we'll end up standing against him in the vote after he swallows the arabs. We need to be tight with Ghandi, I think.
I hate to say it but after the economic techs and maybe rifling that we have to switch to the UN path. If we don't get it, We'll have to be second biggest to be in the UN vote, and that means a hella lot of war. I don't think we have the time for that much war.
Votes can be predictable. At the very least, if you are higher in your relationship that your opponent is, you will at least not lose. The other party may abstain, but if they're friendly they'll usually vote you in.
So, we need to build our economy for near-term success, then gain some modern military techs for defense, then work toward the UN.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I'll make use of my silly double post to put up the turn order:
Dolphan, you are up.
Dolphan (Up)
Merum
groin_apologist
Perugia
goodenuf
BrianS
Doom_train
gskur (resting)
We need to trade for as much as we can before we get liberalism. We may actually be able to pull off something here. let's see how far we can go. We need to trade our way back into the tech race. This is a good start.
We should postpone the attack on Cyrus until we finish this round of trading. No sense declaring on him before we squeeze him for all we can.
First order of business is to trade paper around.
FDR will give us Music for it plus our world map. Ghandi will give us the same deal. Music leads to Military Tradition, with Nationalism. I recommend trading with FDR for it. Then, we can try to get guilds and whatever else we can squeeze from FDR for Education. This way we don't give the universities (and their 4 culture per turn) to Ghandi.
Cyrus will give us engineering and monotheism OR literature, plus his WM and 20g for Philosophy and Paper.
After that we can see what Sally will give us for paper.
Then let's shop education around and see what we can get for that. We may be able to get nearly to parity here.
Not to jab at anybody but the practice of putting (player) turn logs in spoilers really isn't working for me. It's making it difficult for me to find information. I'd prefer to have player turn notes always visible.
Don't be discouraged by the pessimistic tone of my posts. I think we can still win this game!
Dolphan, you are up.
Dolphan (Up)
Merum
groin_apologist
Perugia
goodenuf
BrianS
Doom_train
gskur (resting)
We need to trade for as much as we can before we get liberalism. We may actually be able to pull off something here. let's see how far we can go. We need to trade our way back into the tech race. This is a good start.
We should postpone the attack on Cyrus until we finish this round of trading. No sense declaring on him before we squeeze him for all we can.
First order of business is to trade paper around.
FDR will give us Music for it plus our world map. Ghandi will give us the same deal. Music leads to Military Tradition, with Nationalism. I recommend trading with FDR for it. Then, we can try to get guilds and whatever else we can squeeze from FDR for Education. This way we don't give the universities (and their 4 culture per turn) to Ghandi.
Cyrus will give us engineering and monotheism OR literature, plus his WM and 20g for Philosophy and Paper.
After that we can see what Sally will give us for paper.
Then let's shop education around and see what we can get for that. We may be able to get nearly to parity here.
Not to jab at anybody but the practice of putting (player) turn logs in spoilers really isn't working for me. It's making it difficult for me to find information. I'd prefer to have player turn notes always visible.
Don't be discouraged by the pessimistic tone of my posts. I think we can still win this game!
@Merum - Ni hao! I too am back home. This was a quick trip for me - more plane time than business - 3 travel days, 2 days of meetings.
I like your thoughts about trading paper. Let's win this game! By the way, I see the server is back up and our current save is now available.
Further notes: I spent some time looking at the save this afternoon. I think we need to give up Libyan for now and bring the stack down to the southern Indian border. Let's not declare war until it is in place. Then, when war is declared, let's move it down to pick up a coastal city. I think Cyrus' border cities are going to be tough to keep, and we should first take the coast cities. We may even want to extort some techs for a 10 turn peace before taking the border cities. This will let us get the coast cities out of rebellion and start establishing themselves. I also think we want a couple more GAs before we take the border cities. Let's save Valkimi for a border city but get him some other artists to create a museum of great works!!
I like your thoughts about trading paper. Let's win this game! By the way, I see the server is back up and our current save is now available.
Further notes: I spent some time looking at the save this afternoon. I think we need to give up Libyan for now and bring the stack down to the southern Indian border. Let's not declare war until it is in place. Then, when war is declared, let's move it down to pick up a coastal city. I think Cyrus' border cities are going to be tough to keep, and we should first take the coast cities. We may even want to extort some techs for a 10 turn peace before taking the border cities. This will let us get the coast cities out of rebellion and start establishing themselves. I also think we want a couple more GAs before we take the border cities. Let's save Valkimi for a border city but get him some other artists to create a museum of great works!!
Perugia
Prince
Hey welcome back Brian. We are now quorate again.
Although Cyrus will give us engineering and monotheism OR literature, plus his WM and 20g for Philosophy and Paper. He wil give us monotheism AND literature, plus his WM and 20g just for just Philosophy. He's the only civ without Philosophy so we should do this then wait until the next turn before trading Paper to anyone as this will put Theology on the table and may make Music cheaper.
Like the idea of getting to Physics first to snag the free GS as it will go towards Electricity. Taking this strategy further, we could build our own Great Scientist to dramatically reduce the research time and ensure we win the race to Physics then when we learn Physics the free Great Scientist can be expended on Electricity. These two Great Scientists would move us a whopping 2800 beakers down the Mass Media Path and as soon as we were close to Electricity we would be able to trade Physics around but still be ahead in the race to Radio/Mass Media/UN.
Here's the plan in short form:
1a) Trade Philosophy to Cyrus - Wait a turn to reveal Theology. Its not worth anything like its nominal 1794 beakers as everyone else has it.
1b) We can also renegotiate our rice deal with Cyrus from +5gpt to +6gpt to snag a few more gold pieces before we double-cross him
.
Likewise we can sell gems to Gandhi for 3gpt. Normally a bad move but probalbly OK for the 3-4 turns until we DoW with Cyrus which will break the deal.
2a) Trade Paper (1345) around - Wait a turn to see what this reveals (A short post at this point would be great!)
2b) Trade Education (4036) around if team agree/time is right/only to selected Civs. It's expensive so should buy us all techs on the table at the time. We should get parity with everyone apart from Gandhi with this.
2c) AI techs on table: Monotheism (268), Literature (448), Music (1245), Guilds (2242), Engineering (2242)
2d) AI Other techs: Theology (HC, Chrisitanity; Saladin, Theocracy), Divine Right (Gandhi, Islam), Nationalism (Gandhi), Astronomy (Gandhi), Banking (Gandhi, Merchantilism).
3) Wake the sleeping Libyan stack in 1328AD and redeploy to the south. Option to leave the C1 Mace, Crossbow and Medic as rear guard to capture the Persian worker and do some pillaging. Delay DoW until Trade round complete & redeployed units in postion.
4) We have a workboat that will not survive combat of the SW coast of India. This should make port in an Indian city, return home or be disbanded.
5) Giza is running 2 citizen specialists but the extra hammers are not needed for Lighthouse in 3. One should be working the cottage (growth in 1). I would personally make the other a Scientist for the next 3 turns (3 beakers) then switch to the coast when the Lighthouse is complete (2f2c).
Giza is obviously an economic city but is hammer poor so should build only econonic buildings and the odd ship, no land units.
6) Short term research path is Military/Economic. Guilds/Banking/Rifling.
NB Rifling will make HC's Chichen Itza obsolete so maybe we target Saladin before a mass attack on HC's cities.
7) Long term research path is UN: Astronomy-Sci Method-Physics-Electricity-Radio-Mass Media
8) Printing Press is on both paths and should be prioritorised as it provides an instant economic boost to our villages and towns.
9) Great People. We need more of these. Artists essential vs Gandhi. Scientists/Engineers/Merchant useful.
10) Victory condition UN. Friend TBA but probably Gandhi. Opponent probably FDR.
11) Capture the Persian holy city of Persepolis for +1gold per Buddhist city.
12) Ignoring HC, we have no permanent negative relations modifiers with anyone except poor old Cyrus -1: "You made an arrogant demand!"
@BrianS & other notes
a) I looked at the save. See what you mean about the border cities. Gordium (Marble) and Susa are under intense cultural Pressure from Gandhi. However, its not so bad at Bactra. I think the force at Libyan should target Bactra. Using Valmiki for a culture bomb will snag Incense and Pig for us.
b) One Citizen at Thebes is working a forest grass but could be working something else as the odd hammer does not contribute towards Research. There's no suitable tile at the present. It could work the rice but that would mess up the nice balance at Heliopolis. We could farm or cottage the tile 1W of the fresh water lake. The tile 1NW of the rice should be left for a farm which can be irrigated via 2 routes i) the plains NW of Heliopolis or ii) the forest/grass north of the cows.
c) As soon as we have Liberalism we get the option of Free Religion = +10% research in all cities and +1 happy per religion. No State Religion will also help us on the diplomatic/trade front with Gandhi (-3 Heathen modifier at present) but we would lose out with FDR and Cyrus (+2 Brothers & Sister of the faith). If we would rather cultivate FDR then we won't want to use Free Religion.
If we don't want Free Religion are we going to Use Free Speech and forget about vassalage. This wil greatly boost our economy but not be so good for the military.
If we don't intend to use either Free Religion or Free Speech we can delay Liberalism (at least until the AI has Education) we can then get something better than Astronomy as the Free Tech.
d) We have 1 Great Engineer sleeping in Thebes ready to part rush the UN. We also want at least 2 Great Artists, a Great Scientist, or Great Merchant or another Great Engineer would help but are not essential. We should build the National Epic and set up a GP farm to achieve this.
I recommend we turn Moscow into a Great Person farm. It is already running an Engineer and a Priest. It has 2 bonus foods, lots of scope for farms and no unhealthy flood plains, and the jungles can be converted to grassland farms.
Rosicky a worker is clearing a jungle there to build a cottage. The order should be changed to a farm.
Aaron, Apprentice and Leonardo are 2 turns from completing a farm. The forest chop due in 2 should be put towards the National epic not a military unit. The 3 workers will provide another farm for Moscow to use as they irrigate towards the rice at Alexandria. They can then chop the other roaded grassland forest at Moscow and farm that to leave 2 forests for health. Running 4 farmed grasslands we could support 6 specialists and still be growing (or use one of the mines) and we'd still be able to work the town. When the size reached 15 or more we could run the 5th farm to allow 7 specialists and work the village 2N of Moscow or 2 mines. The unimproved grassland hill should be moved into Alexandria's sphere of influence as Moscow will find it hard to work 4 mines.
As soon as we learn Literature we should start our National Epic in Moscow.
e.
We can use our co-religion modifier to stay on goodish terms with FDR at the moment (to further trade and ensure he is bigger than Gandhi) whilst not agreeing to anything anti-Gandhi. Meanwhile we should make as many deals with Gandhi as we can but minimise the benefit to him of these deals (ie he is the last person we would consider trading a tech to). Just before the UN completes we can change to one of Gandhi's religions and spam it to all our cities to get max Brothers & Sisters bonus. Does anyone know if the size of the bonus depends on how long you have run the religion for or how many cities you have?
I want to check what each AI thinks of the other. However, I am sitting in the garden at the moment using my laptop enjoying exceptionally fine weather and my kid larking around. I'll go indoors to the Civ4 desktop after sunset and will amend post in 4-5 hours after looking at the save.
OK. I've looked at the save again. We are doing pretty well in relations compared to the AI. Everyone is pleased with us
except Saladin who is cautious .
FDR and Cyrus are mutually pleased (does anyone know if FDR will think less of us for DoW on Cyrus?)
FDR and Gandhi are mutually cautious
FDR and Saladin are mutually cautious
Gandhi and Saladin are mutually annoyed
Saladin is friendly
, FDR cautious and both Gandhi & Cyrus annoyed with HC. I imagine this means HC might get Saladin to DoW on us but that should not be a problem given his weakness.
Gandhi is pleased with Cyrus but Cyrus is cautious most likely due to the closeness of their boundaries (ie cultural pressure mentioned in a) above).
f) I would like to try and capture the Sistine Chapel from Saladin and maybe the Parthenon. The SC will give us +2 culture per turn from specialists in our cities under Gandhi cultural pressure, the Perthenon will increase GP production by 50% in all cities ((obsolete with Chemistry though - Grenadiers).
Although Cyrus will give us engineering and monotheism OR literature, plus his WM and 20g for Philosophy and Paper. He wil give us monotheism AND literature, plus his WM and 20g just for just Philosophy. He's the only civ without Philosophy so we should do this then wait until the next turn before trading Paper to anyone as this will put Theology on the table and may make Music cheaper.
Like the idea of getting to Physics first to snag the free GS as it will go towards Electricity. Taking this strategy further, we could build our own Great Scientist to dramatically reduce the research time and ensure we win the race to Physics then when we learn Physics the free Great Scientist can be expended on Electricity. These two Great Scientists would move us a whopping 2800 beakers down the Mass Media Path and as soon as we were close to Electricity we would be able to trade Physics around but still be ahead in the race to Radio/Mass Media/UN.
Here's the plan in short form:
1a) Trade Philosophy to Cyrus - Wait a turn to reveal Theology. Its not worth anything like its nominal 1794 beakers as everyone else has it.
1b) We can also renegotiate our rice deal with Cyrus from +5gpt to +6gpt to snag a few more gold pieces before we double-cross him
.Likewise we can sell gems to Gandhi for 3gpt. Normally a bad move but probalbly OK for the 3-4 turns until we DoW with Cyrus which will break the deal.
2a) Trade Paper (1345) around - Wait a turn to see what this reveals (A short post at this point would be great!)
2b) Trade Education (4036) around if team agree/time is right/only to selected Civs. It's expensive so should buy us all techs on the table at the time. We should get parity with everyone apart from Gandhi with this.
2c) AI techs on table: Monotheism (268), Literature (448), Music (1245), Guilds (2242), Engineering (2242)
2d) AI Other techs: Theology (HC, Chrisitanity; Saladin, Theocracy), Divine Right (Gandhi, Islam), Nationalism (Gandhi), Astronomy (Gandhi), Banking (Gandhi, Merchantilism).
3) Wake the sleeping Libyan stack in 1328AD and redeploy to the south. Option to leave the C1 Mace, Crossbow and Medic as rear guard to capture the Persian worker and do some pillaging. Delay DoW until Trade round complete & redeployed units in postion.
4) We have a workboat that will not survive combat of the SW coast of India. This should make port in an Indian city, return home or be disbanded.
5) Giza is running 2 citizen specialists but the extra hammers are not needed for Lighthouse in 3. One should be working the cottage (growth in 1). I would personally make the other a Scientist for the next 3 turns (3 beakers) then switch to the coast when the Lighthouse is complete (2f2c).
Giza is obviously an economic city but is hammer poor so should build only econonic buildings and the odd ship, no land units.
6) Short term research path is Military/Economic. Guilds/Banking/Rifling.
NB Rifling will make HC's Chichen Itza obsolete so maybe we target Saladin before a mass attack on HC's cities.
7) Long term research path is UN: Astronomy-Sci Method-Physics-Electricity-Radio-Mass Media
8) Printing Press is on both paths and should be prioritorised as it provides an instant economic boost to our villages and towns.
9) Great People. We need more of these. Artists essential vs Gandhi. Scientists/Engineers/Merchant useful.
10) Victory condition UN. Friend TBA but probably Gandhi. Opponent probably FDR.
11) Capture the Persian holy city of Persepolis for +1gold per Buddhist city.
12) Ignoring HC, we have no permanent negative relations modifiers with anyone except poor old Cyrus -1: "You made an arrogant demand!"
@BrianS & other notes
a) I looked at the save. See what you mean about the border cities. Gordium (Marble) and Susa are under intense cultural Pressure from Gandhi. However, its not so bad at Bactra. I think the force at Libyan should target Bactra. Using Valmiki for a culture bomb will snag Incense and Pig for us.
b) One Citizen at Thebes is working a forest grass but could be working something else as the odd hammer does not contribute towards Research. There's no suitable tile at the present. It could work the rice but that would mess up the nice balance at Heliopolis. We could farm or cottage the tile 1W of the fresh water lake. The tile 1NW of the rice should be left for a farm which can be irrigated via 2 routes i) the plains NW of Heliopolis or ii) the forest/grass north of the cows.
c) As soon as we have Liberalism we get the option of Free Religion = +10% research in all cities and +1 happy per religion. No State Religion will also help us on the diplomatic/trade front with Gandhi (-3 Heathen modifier at present) but we would lose out with FDR and Cyrus (+2 Brothers & Sister of the faith). If we would rather cultivate FDR then we won't want to use Free Religion.
If we don't want Free Religion are we going to Use Free Speech and forget about vassalage. This wil greatly boost our economy but not be so good for the military.
If we don't intend to use either Free Religion or Free Speech we can delay Liberalism (at least until the AI has Education) we can then get something better than Astronomy as the Free Tech.
d) We have 1 Great Engineer sleeping in Thebes ready to part rush the UN. We also want at least 2 Great Artists, a Great Scientist, or Great Merchant or another Great Engineer would help but are not essential. We should build the National Epic and set up a GP farm to achieve this.
I recommend we turn Moscow into a Great Person farm. It is already running an Engineer and a Priest. It has 2 bonus foods, lots of scope for farms and no unhealthy flood plains, and the jungles can be converted to grassland farms.
Rosicky a worker is clearing a jungle there to build a cottage. The order should be changed to a farm.
Aaron, Apprentice and Leonardo are 2 turns from completing a farm. The forest chop due in 2 should be put towards the National epic not a military unit. The 3 workers will provide another farm for Moscow to use as they irrigate towards the rice at Alexandria. They can then chop the other roaded grassland forest at Moscow and farm that to leave 2 forests for health. Running 4 farmed grasslands we could support 6 specialists and still be growing (or use one of the mines) and we'd still be able to work the town. When the size reached 15 or more we could run the 5th farm to allow 7 specialists and work the village 2N of Moscow or 2 mines. The unimproved grassland hill should be moved into Alexandria's sphere of influence as Moscow will find it hard to work 4 mines.
As soon as we learn Literature we should start our National Epic in Moscow.
e.
I think the more rational/peaceful a leader is the more likely they will vote for their friends so Gandhi always makes a better friend than FDR.
We can use our co-religion modifier to stay on goodish terms with FDR at the moment (to further trade and ensure he is bigger than Gandhi) whilst not agreeing to anything anti-Gandhi. Meanwhile we should make as many deals with Gandhi as we can but minimise the benefit to him of these deals (ie he is the last person we would consider trading a tech to). Just before the UN completes we can change to one of Gandhi's religions and spam it to all our cities to get max Brothers & Sisters bonus. Does anyone know if the size of the bonus depends on how long you have run the religion for or how many cities you have?
I want to check what each AI thinks of the other. However, I am sitting in the garden at the moment using my laptop enjoying exceptionally fine weather and my kid larking around. I'll go indoors to the Civ4 desktop after sunset and will amend post in 4-5 hours after looking at the save.
OK. I've looked at the save again. We are doing pretty well in relations compared to the AI. Everyone is pleased with us
except Saladin who is cautious .FDR and Cyrus are mutually pleased (does anyone know if FDR will think less of us for DoW on Cyrus?)
FDR and Gandhi are mutually cautious
FDR and Saladin are mutually cautious
Gandhi and Saladin are mutually annoyed
Saladin is friendly
, FDR cautious and both Gandhi & Cyrus annoyed with HC. I imagine this means HC might get Saladin to DoW on us but that should not be a problem given his weakness. Gandhi is pleased with Cyrus but Cyrus is cautious most likely due to the closeness of their boundaries (ie cultural pressure mentioned in a) above).
f) I would like to try and capture the Sistine Chapel from Saladin and maybe the Parthenon. The SC will give us +2 culture per turn from specialists in our cities under Gandhi cultural pressure, the Perthenon will increase GP production by 50% in all cities ((obsolete with Chemistry though - Grenadiers).
Gonna have to request a skip guys, RL has gone a bit hectic and these turns look too important to rush through. Short term plan looks good, but we need a definite team decision on whether we're making friends with FDR or Gandhi. Diplo needs a concrete plan. Should be available again in a couple of days, sorry about this!
Perugia
Prince
OK there have been some really good posts recently to discuss medium and long term planning. I've tried not to regurgitate them but just condensed some into numbered points in post #497 below with a few comments of my own that I hope are non-contentious.
I've followed up with some thoughts that I'd like to include in the plan if the team like them. These are labelled a), b), c) etc in post #497.
So as not to crowd the post I have not looked at the tactics of the war with Cyrus.
BTW Merum is now up, read on for reasons....
Meanwhile Merum & Dolphan are swapped on the last posted turn order.
Yea! we now have the bones of short term and long term research plans thanks to BrianS & Merum (Now added to my summary plus more thoughts which are open to debate).
I think we should hold-fire on trading paper one turn and trade Philosophy to Cyrus first for Monotheism and Literature + WM & 20g. This will put Theology on the table when we offer Paper. This will add Theocracy to our Civics selection which means we have more flexibility in maintaining newly created +6XP units without screwing the economy.
I'm still looking at the Diplo side and have not checked all cities. This is now complete. . I think we should make Gandhi our friend as he is more sensible than FDR and will vote for us if we butter him up whereas I believe FDR is more likely to abstain for the same attitude towards us. The other reason is that if we are short a few votes with FDR as the rival we can DoW on him to pare some away but that's no option with Gandhi as the enemy.
Remember keep your rivals close but your enemies closer. The key to limiting Gandhi is going to be culture, culture, culture and artists, arstist, artists. I think Moscow should be designated a Great Person farm.
BTW I again noticed some workers near Moscow farming in a forest. As I said some time back, please, please do not chop forests by giving workers orders to farm/cottage/workshop etc, give them the explicit chop order instead. This gives the city the forest bonus much more quickly, if you used the implied version the bonus is not given until both tasks complete. You should also normally use the explicit clear command in jungles even though there's no bonus for secondary reasons. The only exception is in a war where the worker is defended by a combat unit that can benefit from the defense of the forest/jungle.
I have done some research. Gandhi already has Banking. He is running Mercantilism civic so we have no trades routes with him. At least these will not change so much when we DoW on Cyrus.
I've followed up with some thoughts that I'd like to include in the plan if the team like them. These are labelled a), b), c) etc in post #497.
So as not to crowd the post I have not looked at the tactics of the war with Cyrus.
BTW Merum is now up, read on for reasons....
I need to absorb the recent posts and add some more on the Dilpo front. I've short term skipped you. Once the war with Cyrus starts we should have a victory plan and I hope you'll find it easier to pick up.Dolphan said:
Meanwhile Merum & Dolphan are swapped on the last posted turn order.
Yea! we now have the bones of short term and long term research plans thanks to BrianS & Merum (Now added to my summary plus more thoughts which are open to debate).
I think we should hold-fire on trading paper one turn and trade Philosophy to Cyrus first for Monotheism and Literature + WM & 20g. This will put Theology on the table when we offer Paper. This will add Theocracy to our Civics selection which means we have more flexibility in maintaining newly created +6XP units without screwing the economy.
I'm still looking at the Diplo side and have not checked all cities. This is now complete. . I think we should make Gandhi our friend as he is more sensible than FDR and will vote for us if we butter him up whereas I believe FDR is more likely to abstain for the same attitude towards us. The other reason is that if we are short a few votes with FDR as the rival we can DoW on him to pare some away but that's no option with Gandhi as the enemy.
Remember keep your rivals close but your enemies closer. The key to limiting Gandhi is going to be culture, culture, culture and artists, arstist, artists. I think Moscow should be designated a Great Person farm.
BTW I again noticed some workers near Moscow farming in a forest. As I said some time back, please, please do not chop forests by giving workers orders to farm/cottage/workshop etc, give them the explicit chop order instead. This gives the city the forest bonus much more quickly, if you used the implied version the bonus is not given until both tasks complete. You should also normally use the explicit clear command in jungles even though there's no bonus for secondary reasons. The only exception is in a war where the worker is defended by a combat unit that can benefit from the defense of the forest/jungle.
I have done some research. Gandhi already has Banking. He is running Mercantilism civic so we have no trades routes with him. At least these will not change so much when we DoW on Cyrus.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Ok, I'll try to play tonight, else it will be tomorrow.
I'm concerned that if we trade philosophy to Cyrus for the two lesser techs, that we won't have enough value in paper alone to get engineering. Thoughts?
I'm concerned that if we trade philosophy to Cyrus for the two lesser techs, that we won't have enough value in paper alone to get engineering. Thoughts?
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