SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Perugia]

Ok, I'll try to play tonight, else it will be tomorrow.

I'm concerned that if we trade philosophy to Cyrus for the two lesser techs, that we won't have enough value in paper alone to get engineering. Thoughts?

Good point.

Well Engineering has been somewhat devalued as several AIs know it. I would put Paper and Engineering on the table and ask Cyrus "What would make this deal work?" Try the same deal with other leaders as well.

An all up deal with Cyrus might actually be available as the AI will sometimes settle for less than they offer. I would also put Paper, Philosophy, Engineering, Monotheism and Literature on the table and ask the same question. He might agree for our WM and some gold.

If the only way to get Engineering is from Cyrus and for Paper & Philosophy then we must do that. In this case it's tricky to decide if Mono or Lit is better. Literature is nominally more valuable and needed to build the National Epic but Monotheism reveals Theology on our tech tree.

As both Mono and Lit are heavily devalued I'd personally go with Mono and hope to pick up both Lit and Theology from other civilizations later in the turnset.

 

[Dolphan]

Guys, we qualify for the first spoiler thread now, right? Who here is a master of narrative?

Oh, and has anyone noted the provisional 8th August deadline?

 

[Perugia]

Guys, we qualify for the first spoiler thread now, right? Who here is a master of narrative?

Oh, and has anyone noted the provisional 8th August deadline?

Doom train has volunteered to draft something. This will be pm'd for comment.

Thanks for the deadline that's news to me!

 

[Goodenuf]

A big thx to Doom Train too for volunteering to start the draft summary

 

[Groin_Apologist]

I am going to be out of town for a couple of days with no internet access, so I'm afraid I will need to request a skip this round as well.

 

[Merum]

Pre-Flight Checks
Paper is not enough to get engineering on its own. We need it, so I make the deal with Cyrus: Philosophy and Paper for Engineering, Monotheism, his WM, and 20g.
Suddenly, now FDR will -not- trade us Music for paper+WM. Ghandi will still do so, and so I make the deal.

Liberalism in 13. Not fast enough! Can't trade Education until we're closer, or somebody will research it out from under us.

Change priest/Engineer combo at Moscow to two scientists. Lib in 12 now.
Also change citizens at Giza to scientists. No impact on production, but we'll get some spare beakers to roll into something else, plus GS points.
Put a scientist on at Heliopolis, causing mild starvation. Lib in 11 now. We'll be able to switch back before we lose the pop.
Give the galleys an order to move up and get ready to pick up the troops.
Send the Libyan stack less the C1 mace, the medic, and the crossbow down to 1NW of Gordium. 5 turns to get there. Valmiki will go to Madras during the war.

I decide to hold paper for a turn, hoping that it will not get traded to FDR on the IT.

The turns

Spoiler :

Turn 1 1334

Holding paper pays off! I trade it to Saladin for Theology + 20g.
I decide to hold education for a couple, to boost our liberalism advantage. Ghandi will pay through the nose for education.
There's a Caravel in Persepolis. Badnews for our galleys. We'll have to scoot in and unload the minute we DoW on them.

Turn 2 1340
Time to begin moving the troops out in preparation for war.
Small problem. All the coast tiles next to persepolis belong to Cyrus. That means when we DOW on him, our galleys go bye-bye. I have no choice but to land the troops,move them to India, and bring them back overland.

Turn 3 1346
Wait, I think I see a way. I'll move the galleys W of Persepolis and them land on the hill at the DoW. We'll have to try to take the iron with a Chariot.
Music to the Salad-man for Lit+20. He's now pleased with us.
The war drums are beating. I'm going to trade Education around immediately before declaring. Getting a little nervous, heh.

Turn 4 1352

Everything is in place. The balloon is about to go up.
Cyrus has guilds, and we shouldn't wait any longer. However, I'm going to trade him education for it before we come down on him. It won't help him nearly as much as Ghandi or FDR. They'll get it a turn later.

Turn 5 1358

I cut the deal with Cyrus, and he becomes friendly with us. Makes me almost feel guilty. Cancelling our deals brings him back to Pleased. I feel better now. I declare WAR!

...And Promptly crash. Fortunately, I had just opened the save, so all I have to do is re-do the deal.

OK, the war is on. I bomb Gordium, and get the troops moving

Turn 6 1364

Thebes, Giza, and Memphis all took happiness hits as soon as the war started. We'll need more MPs there. Movement points took up this turn, so the real fighting doesn't begin yet.

Turn 7 1370

Education to FDR for Banking, 20g, WM.
Ghandi won't trade us anything but Divine Right because "He has his reasons". Stupid wonder-building jerk.
Cyrus is upgrading mounted units to knights. This could turn into a nasty fight.
Heliopolis is now unhappy too. This better be a short war.
Gordium falls! We get some much needed gold for the treasury.
Sidon falls and our empire grows by another city. 94 gold to the treasury.
Persepolis is going to be a tough nut to crack.
Our chariots are getting torn up by Cyrus' units. Having trouble getting to the iron, where there's a longbow.

Turn 8 1376

Persepolis falls, much easier than I thought it would. Amazing luck on our bombarding cats. We net 147g + a worker.
Persepolis has the Mahabodhi.
We are outgunned at Arbela. Need reinforcements.
Cyrus attacks Gordium with a knight, killing a wounded maceman healing there. I kill the wounded knight with a cat, and bring it back into the city.
Ghandi's culture is already pushing around Gordium
We have overtaken FDR for 2nd place in score!

Turn 9 1382

Cyrus sends another knight against Gordium, killing the other mace in there. He wants it back, and badly. Only a cat left to defend. The knight is down to 5.2, he might not have the juice to take the cat, I dunno. Cross your fingers.
I unload on the coast NE of Tarsus, trapping a worker on the peninsula there.

Lost a maceman on an 84.7% battle at Arbela. Damn. The spearman there isn't strong enough to take on the longbow. I wait a turn.

I finally realize that I can cut off the iron by cutting the roads around it (dumbass) and move a mace to do so.

Turn 10 1388

Cyrus attacks with the knight, and retakes Gordium. Damn.
I respond to this by taking Arbela.
I grab the trapped worker, and bomb Tarsus.
Saladin asks us to cancel all our deals with Ghandi. I decline, and he becomes cautious.

Time to stop.

I don't feel like I did too well on these war turns. :/ Losing Gordium took the wind out of my sails.

Valmiki is in a caravel in Calcutta.
War weariness is getting bad.
Next player might consider switching to theology. I thought it was too expensive.

Liberalism comes in on the first turn of the next set. Need to decide what to take.
Use the maceman N of Persepolis to cut the iron roads.
Have to decide whether to retake Gordium at this time or wait til next war.

I'm off to Florida, back in a few days. I'll be following the discussion here.

The save

 

[BrianS]

It might be a little late for this, but it might make sense to move the ex-Libyan stack to Bactra. Taking and establishing Bactra will be key to our holding Susa later.

 

[Goodenuf]

Make sure the Great Artist has some protection while in India... the Indians won't defend him, and I would guess that Cyrus and Ghandi have an OB agreement. That means a horse archer or knight can attack our units in India.

I had a similiar thing happen to me in a game about a month ago. I left a GA in a "friend's'" city alone while i attacked one of the border cities of a common neighbour. When I declared war, the enemy took a knight to the "friend's" city and killed my GA. I had forgotten to check if an OB was set between them.

You probably have this covered, but just in case...

 

[gskur]

@Merum #506
I remember moving a couple of caravels for each of the galley fleets to protect them from hostile caravels, so that landing of our troops could be made on the coast, with precision. What was the problem with that, I wonder...

 

[Merum]

The problem is that where the galleys are placed, there is no tile where they can sit when we declare war and all our units get moved out of persian territory. That means they'll be teleported far away from the target. So, I had to position them to a spot where I could control the movement.

Based on requested skips, Perugia, you are UP.

Perugia (Up)
goodenuf (On Deck)
BrianS
Doom_train
gskur
Dolphan (skipped)
Merum(resting)
groin_apologist (skipped)

 

[Perugia]

The problem is that where the galleys are placed, there is no tile where they can sit when we declare war and all our units get moved out of persian territory. That means they'll be teleported far away from the target. So, I had to position them to a spot where I could control the movement.

Based on requested skips, Perugia, you are UP.

I'll look at the save tonight. Will play a little tomorrow and complete Friday afternoon when I finish work early.

There was a coast spot off the S of Persia, I guess you had to move the fleet so it would jump there on DoW.

Great Artist is OK in India as its boarded on a Caravel (ref post #506)

Losing the units in Gordium was a bummer but it was under culture pressure from Gandhi anyhow. I'm not sure if I'll try and retake it or go for Bactra instead which was my & BrianS's preferred target amongst the border cities.

 

[gskur]

@Merum #510

The problem is that where the galleys are placed, there is no tile where they can sit when we declare war and all our units get moved out of persian territory. That means they'll be teleported far away from the target. So, I had to position them to a spot where I could control the movement.

You, Merum, did very well with your turns, no doubt, but your aswer to my question is so much off that I am just wondering whether you are actually reading all the posts or just skimming... Why did I ever bother with this one, for example?

The main force heading for the capital I would like to position in neutral waters loaded on galleys 2S of the mountain, 4W from Persepolis. The secondary force—in neutral waters 2SE of Sidon. The galleys from the secondary force, after unloading, can quickly (in 3 turns) return for the second load and get to Tarsus, unloading on the 4th turn.

I see this as our biggest problem, by far: we do not play as a team, we are disorganized, we do not listen to each other. There've been many examples, and it is not getting better. To be fair, everyone on the team is guilty of this, to a various degree. It is clear that the forum's format is not conducive to retention and summarization of our discussion points. Do we need to start making detailed summaries for strategy and tactics, and check lists for each player’s turn on a regular basis? Just having an idea or a fact expressed is inadequate: most get missed by most… Any good ideas, guys? Or are we just going to continue towards the finish line as is? It is a reasonable alternative, though, for it is easy, we are doing reasonably well, and it is still fun to participate... So what if we could have done better?

 

[Doom Train]

I ve looked at save here are my suggestions for war:

1- First priority should be cutting iron. This will prevent Cyrus to train more Knights. As Merum said it can be done by destroying roads around it.


2- I think key of winning this war is to capture Tarsus and Pasargadae first, it can be done by our current units in Persia.

2a- With forces around Tarsus it shouldn't be much problem to capture Tarsus thanks to catapults.

2b- Unload units from navy S of Pasargadae to hill and let wounded units to heal. There is 1 healty catapult it can bombard city defences until others fully healed. When iron is disconnected move that maceman to join this force. (Also mace in Persepolis that has city attack promotions can help just in case). This should surely enough to capture Pasargae even Cyrus whips another longbowman.

3- Our Knights should be ready after we capture Tarsus and Pasardagae. I think it will not be a problem to capture remaining cities with knights...

4-Don t forget to fortify maceman NE of Libyan.

@gskur
All of us playing our first SG excluding Perugia. MAybe we could do better in next SGOTM if Fifth Element continues. I liked your idea about " Check lists for each players turn", my suggestion is: player that finished his or her turnset should prepare checklist for next player after reading suggestions about current turnset. Alternatively this job can be done by Perugia as he is good at summarizing main points...

@All
I ve started writing first spoiler. I ll pm it everyone when it finishes. So check your Pm box regularly.

 

[gskur]

We will have to take care of Libyan eventually, because, as long as even one Persian city remains, we will have trouble assimilating the captured ones, esp. on the border with India. If Gandhi does not take it himself, we should go there (by land or sea) and rase is, or, maybe, take it and give it to Gandhi.

@Doom_Train

player that finished his or her turnset should prepare checklist for next player after reading suggestions about current turnset.

I like this very much. I would like to add a second round of disscussion and modifications to the submitted plan, after it is submitted and before the next turnset is started, and have Perugia (our captain) issue the final tunset "orders."

 

[Goodenuf]

Just a reminder that I am away Jul 6 thru Jul 10; available again on Jul 11. I see that Perugia is up before me, but if you are done before the 10th (and someone else can get in a turn set), then by all means drop me by one position on the turn order.

 

[Perugia]

gskur is right that we are disorganised and the player up is often not addressing the suggestions or plan made by the team which is irritating. I'm sure this is not intentional and agree that the forum's format is not helping.

I agree with the idea of a 'checklist' as proposed by Doom Train and seconded by gskur. Historically in SG the player resting provides a turn summary at the end of their log and looks ahead to the next turnset. It makes sense that they absorb everyone's suggestions and write a more complete 'checklist' for the next player.

I second the idea that the captain issue the final set of 'orders'. This is an attempt to identify what has been agreed and adopted as a 'plan' and what remains a suggestion.

Expanding on these ideas, I tried to generate a 'checklist' in my turn but found there there are several issues which need to be addressed if its going to work.

1) Differentiating between the 'agreed plan' and 'suggestions'
2) Identifying the so called 'checklist' and 'agreed plan'
3) Making sure all contributions get considered
4) Ensuring the player up addresses all contributions

1) Differentiating between the 'agreed plan' and 'suggestions'.

I think that the checklist should be located in a single post which is maintained by the player resting. This contains a summary of all topics under discussion in the current turnset. The player maintaining the checklist should edit the post with the latest thinking and the amount of agreement on any points raised by the team. All suggestions should be covered so that the player up has to address them in some way in the following turn.

The checklist does not have to go into detail on all points but can just cross reference the relevant posts (especially if no further comments are received).

However, when a point has been agreed it should be copied into the checklist in the agreed form.

At a suitable cut off point, the captain should then extract from the checklist the agreed items. These should be posted in the plan for the forthcoming turnset along with the general orders that had been in the previous plan.

The agreed items can then be changed back to summary form in the checklist (hidden in a spoiler I suggest).

2) Identifying the so called 'checklist' and 'agreed plan'

I recommend we use the Title: feature to do this and also for the turnset log. Any post without a title is just a suggestion and not expected to be acted or even commented upon in the turnset (it has to get into the checklist to be acted or commented upon in the turnset.

3) Making sure all contributions get considered

The checklist must cover all points raised. If it doesn't then the point should be raised again.

4) Ensuring the player up addresses all contributions

In the turnlog the player up MUST address every issue in both the 'plan' and 'checklist'.

The player should follow the plan unless they can come up with a powerful justification why a deviation is necessary.

The player is not obliged to follow any suggestion in the checklist although they must mention it in their turnlog and explain what they did instead. If you fail to discuss a suggestion the player(s) who made it is/are very likely to get irritated.

In conclusion if we adopt this method of organisation there will for any turnset be three easily recognisable and titled posts amongst the general 'chit-chat'. Firstly, the player resting will provide a summary of the the general suggestions floating around from various individuals as a result of their previous turnset. Secondly, the captain will post the agreed plan. Finally, the turnlog will be posted and it will be expected to mention every point raised in the first two posts.

Can someone comment on and/or second this post please?

 

[Goodenuf]

An excellent plan and well stated, Captain! I second it emphatically.

Certainly as a player learning the finer details of the game, I will find the checklist a great thing to have when starting in on a turnset. Otherwise it can be painful to find all of the details discussed, especially in the midst of a set of turns.

Let's get it done.

 

[Perugia]

1) Maceman NE of Libyan. We can spare one turn to pillage the mine while the Persian knight in the city is preoccupied with healing (6.4/10).

2) WW is really biting. We have a load of starvation and need more happy faces. We can trade Gems for Gandhi's Silk to gain a happy citizen in 10 cities. Capturing

A revolution to slavery may be in order to convert some unhappy/unhealthy faces into happy and get our granaries working again. Catapults are our cheapest mp now at 60 hammers and its always handy to have ample in reserve but it will cost us support. Otherwise I might build happy producing buildings if there are enough idle citizens to sacrifice.

3) The hill fortified longbow on the Persian iron mine will be bypassed and the iron disconnected by blocking or pillaging the roads.

4) Tarsus will fall in 1 or 2 turns with one catapult used for collateral damage. That will disconnect Cyrus's horses.

5) Knights are due in 5 in Moscow & Pi-Ramesses but switching to slavery will rush these in 1 turn at a cost of 2 unhappy pop. I can also chop an odd forest at Pi-Ramesses.

6) We have an unguarded missionary just west of Persepolis, maybe it's bait? Thank goodness Cyrus doesn't seem to have any offensive units left except the wounded knight in Libyan. Othewise we would lose Arbela.

7) I'll bring up as many reinforcemtns as fast as possible to capture Pasargadae and one of the border cities.

8) We have 2 workers improving a sugar location 3 tiles from Moscow that no city can work. I guess the plan is to have another sugar available to trade when we get Astronomy. I'd have thought 1 would do the job as there is plenty of other work. Watch the turnset for details.

9) Liberalism. We are tech parity with all AI except Gandhi. The options I would be happy with are Astronomy for Observatories, ocean trade with FDR & Sally or Economics for Free Market (+1 trade routes per city) and a Free Great Merchant.

10) HC border at Vilcabamba has expanded so his galleys can cross to our mainland!

 

[BrianS]

Another option to get happy is +10% on the culture slider - will help with cities with theatres.

 

[Doom Train]

@perugia #516
Perfect guideline for our new system. I am sure we will play better if this system implemented correctly.

Now Merum should create a checklist for Perugia based on his experience in recent turnset and our comments. Then all of us will make suggestions about checklist. After all corrections completed turnset will start.(of course captain should accept it)