SGOTM 01 - Peanut

[DaviddesJ]

Galleys upgrade to galleons or frigates - you can't upgrade them to caravels.

Oh, that's right. Now I remember why this upgrade strategy didn't work the last time I tried it.

We should plan to pop-rush or chop-rush some caravels immediately after reaching Optics. (A few turns of delay probably doesn't make a huge difference, but every turn does count.)

 

[Phabuk]

ok i am ready to play. Sorry that Paulk won't play anymore...

To answer your question Daviddesj, I think it is a good thing to have discussion. I don't participate too much because I have not such a good experience of the game than many of you here, and not enough time to make my own tests and calculations... So I try to follow and learn strategies from your discussion: it's good for me and I thank you very much for that.

Now I think I will play within the next 36 hours, perhaps tonight if I find the time for that.

There have been a lot of posts recently and I need to sum up some ideas:

- our economy is better now but we must try to do best by working the cottages
- we must prepare a bunch of caravel with explorator to reach others civs. but in which direction? I will send to the north-west a big expedition, and another one to make a world tour.
-we must develop GP in thebae and memphis
-moscow must spread religion and grow
-trade with gandhi

what else ?

 

[MailMan]

I was out for only a few days and about 45 posts have appeared and only 1 turnset was played.

On that subject - I really think that discussion is very important for the team success.
However my native language is not English and therefore I do not like to read long posts. I prefer short and to-the-point posts (preferably using points - like previous post)

My thoughts:
- there is no real urge to take out Cyrus, he is too crippled now to cause any problems and we do not gain anything from capturing his land (or even gifting them to India).
- we need to send caravels ASAP. there is no point in waiting for explorers. I find them very unusual in most cases. If we produce an explorer from inland city in time - we can load it, but I would not aim for this.
- we should re-check all deals with India. I gave them our last crabs for calender happiness resource, we already has calender and we will probably need the health bonus.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I have trouble being brief, but I'll do my best.

Important points for the next 10 turns:

- Build Colossus in 2 turns: shift citizens after next turn, to make sure we have enough hammers in St Petersburg after growth.

- When we have Colossus, take advantage by working coast tiles where we have lighthouse (but not to neglect hamlets or villages, or where we don't have lighthouse).

- When Memphis builds Aquaduct, consider starting Hanging Gardens there.

- When Thebes and Heliopolis build Forge, consider adding engineer specialists to the existing 2 scientists in each city.

- When we have accumulated enough gold, raise research to 100% to finish researching Machinery. Want to have enough gold to fund economy for the remaining turns of research needed.

- If Cyrus researches any techs we don't have (unlikely), then trade one of our older techs for them.

- Current resource deals should be ok. I connected a second Crab resource during my turns, so no need to take back the one we gave to Gandhi. Finish building Spice plantation and connecting road. If Gandhi has a new resource for trade (e.g., Wine) then we can try to get that in exchange for one of the resources we're now giving for free.

- It's a long time still before we can build Caravels. When we do have the chance, the quickest way to discover new lands will probably be to sail east from Heliopolis. Building another to sail northwest from Elephantine, and maybe one to sail southeast from Novgorod or Pi-Ramesses, will also be worthwhile.

- Micromanagement of pop rushing is the most important development tool, but it's impossible to describe briefly all of the strategies involved. Generally, if a city has no unhappiness from past pop rushing, and it's at its current growth limit, and it has something useful to build, it's often a good idea to pop rush something. In cities with forge, it's an especially good idea to rush things that need 45-54 more hammers.

 

[Phabuk]

save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0350_01.Civ4SavedGame

pre turn: incensetopia --> mv citizen to spice

215 AD:
nothing much

230 AD:
- we've built colossus! --> lighthouse
- WC in Pi-Ramses for garrison
- MM of the cities to improve income (+70 GPT)

245 AD:
- memphis finish acqueduct --> gardens
- moscow finish misionnary --> misionnary
- we have a new gold source near elephantine
- plantation finished near moscow --> plantation north
- forest chopped in persepolis and incensetopia
- give sugar to gandhi
- poprush forge in elephantine

260 AD:
- lighthouse in incensetopia --> library
- imhotep is born in a foreign country
- forge in thebae --> acqueduct
- forge in elephantine --> harbour
- working boat in nov --> library
- +1 engineer in thebae, disease in thebae
- chop forest near moscow
- plantation in incensetopia
- research to 100% (machinery in 5 turns)
- judaism in St petersbourg

275 AD:
- nabu-rimanniis born in new delhi
- heliopolis (disease, +1 engineer) --> forge finished --> harbour
- forest chopped in thebae
- poprush acqueduct in thebae

290 AD:
- granary in alexandrie --> axeman, change cit for growth
- lighthouse in persepolis --> library
- acqueduct in thebae --> explorator
- taoism founded in jaipur
- novgorod extends
- forest chopped in piramses

305 AD:
- lighthouse in St peter --> harbour
- nothing much

320 AD:
- missionary in moscow --> missionary

335 AD:
- we have machinery --> optics
- research to 0% (+84 GPT)
- capac gets hereditary rules
- trade machinery with gandhi against currency and monarchy
- +100 gpt

350 AD:
- harbour in piramses --> library
- poprush harbour in heliopolis
- change for market in thebae


I didn't optimize goods trade with gandhi, perhaps we can earn money... we also must think about revolt to monarchy and organized religion.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Changing to Hereditary Rule should be automatic: it costs us nothing (over Despotism) and gets us at least +1 happiness everywhere. We have avoided Organized Religion so far, because it gives us bonus hammers but costs us commerce. We could reconsider that, as our economy grows.

 

[DaviddesJ]

We need to send a worker to build a road to our new gold source!

We've got so much happiness now, health is more of a constraint almost everywhere. We should be cautious about chopping forests; i.e., only where there's a real benefit.

I see that Huayna Capac has Optics. We should hurry with maximum speed to make contacts. It looks like we can get Optics ourselves in about 6 turns.

 

[civ_steve]

I'm out of town on travel for my company; I'll be back in 24 hours and can play in 36, so I'll post a 'got-it'.

Getting caught up - very sorry to hear that you can't play anymore, PaulK! Please let me know if there was anything I or the Team could have done to facilitate your continued involvement; I would appreciate the information. Otherwise, it's very understandable if RL doesn't allow the time to participate.

Regarding discussions - they are very welcome, IMO! I appreciate the information (still learning). They could be more concise (ala MailMan, and Phabuk as well, I'm sure), but that is tough to keep in mind and be as precise as possible. Please keep the discussion coming!

OK, need Optics ASAP, keep the GPP's accumulating, get ready to build Caravels from scratch (possible chop or pop-rush), connect Gold, Hereditary Rule, continue to develop empire.

Do we need some Crossbows soon to counter HC and his possible Macemen. Perhaps not; he would still need Astronomy to reach us. We also want Explorers on our Caravels, I assume?

 

[MailMan]

- we have a new gold source near elephantine

+2 happiness and extra commerce !!! that's a great news.

trade machinery with gandhi against currency and monarchy

more great news.

I haven't looked at the save, but it seems that we should be able to assimilate more cities into our empire.

we should check each turn for Gandhi's spare gold. I am sure that we will make better use of it than him.

 

[Phabuk]

I thought that there was already a road to the gold... and I didn't revolt to monarchy to avoid the turn lap (I didn't pay attention to the fact that we are spiritual, sorry about that!)

Since our economy is quite good now, i think we should go to organized religion and to monarchy.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Organized Religion costs us 8 gpt (I think) and only benefits 4 cities (for now). It's borderline and I don't have a strong opinion either way. It does help us spread Judaism more.

We could expand but it's not clear where. Taking Cyrus's inland city may make sense soon. The marble city will be an economic drag in all likelihood. I'll look more closely at that. There's a decent city site west of Moscow which we might settle on soon. And also east of Memphis.

Realistically, we aren't going to gain much from expansion. We have enough economy now to conquer the world, I think, if we can get tech parity (or perhaps a slight advantage) on Huayna Capac.

We don't need any defensive troops, imho. HC is probably some ways from Astronomy, and if he does get it we should still be able to see him coming. Obviously, it helps to find out where he is (and to get the circumnavigation bonus if we can, which is a reason to send ships both east and west). I like putting Explorers on the Caravels, myself, but it's really only a minor issue and not a high priority.

 

[civ_steve]

My trip has been extended a day; I'll be returning Thursday night and can play Friday morning, California time. Or, if ainwood wishes to take it, I'll switch with him. (If he doesn't post I'll play Friday morning.)

 

[DaviddesJ]

we should check each turn for Gandhi's spare gold. I am sure that we will make better use of it than him.

How are we going to get him to give us his gold?

 

[ainwood]

My trip has been extended a day; I'll be returning Thursday night and can play Friday morning, California time. Or, if ainwood wishes to take it, I'll switch with him. (If he doesn't post I'll play Friday morning.)

You go for it - we can wait a day.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I'd vote for more swaps if we could play faster.

 

[ainwood]

I'd vote for more swaps if we could play faster.

Actually - friday morning is saturday morning our time.... I guess I can go now.

ANy last-minute instructions?

 

[DaviddesJ]

ANy last-minute instructions?

You'll have to decide what to research after Optics. (Even though your research rate will be 0%, it's still important because we'll accrue beakers from specialists.) My suggestions are either Feudalism (on the path to Guilds), or Astronomy (because we know we'll need points in the latter eventually, in addition to a GS). I'd suggest Astronomy just because it seems like there's a good chance that Gandhi will research Feudalism for us (or maybe someone else we contact will have it).

Key point, again, is to get some Caravels out soon after Optics. Pop rushing in a single turn is too expensive (you pay double if you have no production in the project yet), but building for one turn and then pop rushing may be viable in some cases. We have so much extra happiness now that health is more of a constraint, still, I don't like to overdo the pop rushing. As mentioned before, in cities with forge it works especially well to pop rush when you need 45-54 beakers (i.e., for a Caravel when it reaches at least 36/90 and no more than 45/90): in that range you pay 1 pop and get 88 hammers.

Another thing you might want to do is create a couple of task groups of galleys to destroy Huayna Capac's caravels if they show up off our coasts. It might take as many as 3 galleys to kill a caravel?

 

[ainwood]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0500_01.Civ4SavedGame

Ok - Aim is to get optics ASAP, then chop-rush some caravels.

We have 174 gold.
If we put research at 50%, we get optics in 6, at -12GPT (net -72)
At 60%, we get it in 6 at -34 GPT (net -204)

If we wait 1 turn, we get +102 gold, giving total of 276.
We can then research optics in 5 turns (6 overall) at -57 GPT.

In summary - this shows that our beaker-multipliers are better than gold multipliers - delaying does no good. Set to research optics in 6 at -34 GPT, and hope to pick-up a turn with extra growth etc.

I revolt to hereditory rule.
MM memphis to get HG in two.
I also halt forest chop near novgorod => will use it for caravel instead.
I then realise I can sell Cyrus monotheism for 110 gold. This allows optics in 5.

Turn 1:
Heliopolis Harbour=>explorer. Work mines to get explorer in 5.
Spread judaism in elephantine.

Turn2:
Thebes explorer => explorer.
Memphis HG in one, so move back to work cottage. Optics in 3.

Turn3:
Cyrus cancels open borders.
Complete HG. Start market.
Moscow => Missionary => missionary.
Fishing boat reaches fish near persepolis.

Turn 4:
OPtics in one, so I back-off research to make a profit.
Gold is hooked-up.

Turn 5.
Finish optics. Start astronomy, but back-off research to zero (+88 GPT)
Elephantine harbour => caravel (6)
Novgorod: Switch to caravel, and max-out hammers (6 turns, but will get a couple of chops)
Ditto pi-ramesses.

Turn 6:
St. Petersburg Harbour =< Caravel
Helipolis: Explorer => caravel (but food biased. Still unhappy, but how long can that last?)
Get literature & drama +70 gold for optics from gandhi. He won't give-up hbr.

Turn 7:
Moscow Missionary=> missionary.
Chops completed in pi-ramesses (caravel in one) and novgorod (also in one)

Turn 8:
Persepolis library => harbour.
Pi-Ram caravel => library.
Novgorod => caravel => caravel (chop means we get it in 3)
Chop completes in elephantine - caravel next turn.

Turn 9:
Elephantine caraval =>caravel.
Incensetopia library => harbour.
Start market in thebes. Should we build the national epic & heroic epic somewhere?

turn 10
Pop-rush caravel in elephantine.
Land sighted! Looks uninhabited, although it unfortunate that it was found by a caravel without an explorer.
We can pop-rush another caravel in helopolis - although the old happiness hasn't subsided, it is still fairly happy!
Changed moscow back to explorer - should not have start market, or could have rushed an explorer to sail on the boat from heliopolis.
Caravel in St. Petersburg will finish next turn as well.

Gandhi has fuedalism & philosphy. We could research code of laws in two turns @ 100%, and give ourselves a trading option - plus get some courthouses built.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Sounds pretty good---I'll try to load the save up tomorrow and send more comments. I think it might have been better not to trade Optics: we could delay Gandhi's contacts, which might be more important than getting a couple of minor techs (Drama isn't doing anything for us, and Literature not much). Meeting other civs before he does could be quite important.

Code of Laws might make sense---I would certainly like to build courthouses---but Gandhi isn't going to give us Feudalism or Philosophy for that, because it's too cheap. I guess he might give us some spare gold. If we can find someone else in a few turns, we might be able to just trade for it. We also want to have a gold reserve as when we meet someone we may want to spend gold to buy a tech to then resell.
Still the cost is low enough that it seems very reasonable to just do it ourselves, at this point.

For pop rushing, you can see how long the current unhappiness will last by hovering over the poprush button. If it says "+1 unhappy for 30 turns", that means the current unhappiness will expire in 15 turns (subtract 15). It also means you're buying "twice as much" unhappiness as if you wait.

We don't want to get too carried away with building caravels: I think you may have too many going now. They cost money to maintain and once we've found the remaining civs they aren't worth much.

It's impressive to see on the status page that we're staying well ahead of all other teams in our score. They may well have significant advantages that aren't well reflected in score, though.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I browsed through the current save. Mostly looks pretty good. I saw several places where cities should be placing a higher priority on food, rather than commerce or hammers. I'd also wish that we had at least one more city generating GPP: after our 3rd GP, it looks like it's going to be a long time to a 4th one. Since we have Literature now, we should also think about the best place for Heroic Epic, as part of our GP strategy.

Going to 100% research for COL in two turns looks reasonable to me. I definitely think we have enough caravels in production (probably too many), so everyone should shift back to other stuff when these are done. (They may be useful for patrolling/fighting HC at sea, though.) Also, perhaps we overdid the chopping a little as some cities lost useful health points.