SGOTM 01 - Peanut

[civ_steve]

Part of my ongoing education with CIV. So the ability to enter Ocean is tied to the unit - Galleys and Workboats can't (unless cultural radius allows it) and the other naval units can. So Optics, which provides Caravel, allows Ocean travel by permiting Caravels.

So if we build Colossus, Astronomy will cancel it out, so it may be worthwhile to research other useful Techs while we explore with Caravels to keep the Colossus benefit. Getting a 2nd GS can help us to dictate the timing for this. If we research Optics after Machinery, the 2nd GS would give us Astronomy for Free. (So Optics next sound good.)

Other Techs that lead us to Communism is the Theology - Paper - Printing Press route. Printing Press is required for Scientific Method (after Astronomy), which leads to Communism.

Communism requires Liberalism. From Paper, Education then Liberalism. Liberalism grants a Free Tech, which could be Communism.

If we can lead Gandhi down this path, that would be great! Machinery should gain us a Couple of Gandhi's Techs, and at each new Tech we can do more trading. We look to be on track to make contacts soon (after Machinery and Optics) - very good progress, and the Commerce game is coming under control.

PaulK - you're UP!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Astronomy is too expensive for a GS: the GS will give us a credit toward the cost of Astronomy, but not all of it.

The most important thing is going to be conquering the rest of the world. If we do that, we'll have a choice whether to try to achieve Domination by extending our culture over virtually all of that territory (not too hard with Drama, if we shut down research), or trying to get the Permanent Alliance, in which case we won't need to control nearly as much territory.

 

[ainwood]

The creative trait helps, too. Once we have optics, should we either try to get currency and/or code-of-laws (trade?), or go for astronomy? Any other things we'd like? (Eg. monarchy for hereditory rule?)

 

[DaviddesJ]

I wish we had Currency. We could get gpt from Gandhi for those resources we're just giving him for free now. But I don't want to research it now. And I definitely don't want to research anything that Gandhi already has. I think we should head directly for Optics and then make overseas contacts (we should pre-position our Galleys, preferably with Explorers onboard, so that we can upgrade them and set off immediately when we get Optics). If we're lucky, we can trade for lots of techs when we make contacts.

When we get Machinery, we should be able to trade that for multiple techs from Gandhi. Of what he presently has, I would prioritize Literature, then Monarchy, then Drama. (We will want Horseback Riding for Knights and Cavalry, eventually, but in the short term we want to avoid it because WCs at $37 are better than HAs for $75.) But Gandhi will probably research other stuff that we may want more. Since we're at least 10 turns from Machinery, we should be able to discuss this after the next cycle.

 

[ainwood]

Thoughts:

Thebes should switch from rice to mined, and from floodplains farm to mine. This gives us forge in 3 (currently 6) for the loss of one gold. It should then build an aquaduct (as there will be -1 health with the forge), and assign an engineer. Spreading judaism there should be a priority as well, as happiness is maxed-out.

Memphis will finish an aquadust soon - then what? Not many options. Research? Has both forge & library, so could start working towards a GP?

St. Petersburg can be MM'd to get colossus in 2. Lighthouse & harbour are already queued - looks good.

Moscow should stay on missionaries, although I think we could work farms instead of cottages, and perhaps build another farm next to the lake - it still has a lot of growth potential.

Heliopolis is about to grow. Then can start working mines, and finish forge faster. How many cities do we want to go for GP in? This already has 60 GP points, so I think we should try and get the forge ASAP. It still has whip unhappiness, but can finish the forge in four-five turns if hills are worked.

Elephantine - I think we should prioritise harbour over forge - especially if we can get currency 'soon'.

Alexandria - should finish granary, then harbour? Maybe chop the forest to help?

Persepolis - perhaps wait two turns to grow, then work mines for a few turns to speed lighthouse? Then maybe build its own workboats (travel time from novgorad is quite a few turns!)

 

[Paulk]

"Got it"
I'll play in the next 16-24 hours.
So we have some time to discuss.

 

[civ_steve]

Cities that have a religion already can build Temples. This would allow the assignment of a priest, so with Library, Forge and Temple, these type of cities would generate 12 GPP/turn. Perhaps Memphis can do this after finishing Aquaduct.

I have no argument with ainwood's suggestions for Thebes, Memphis and St. Petersburg. Moscow - Growth yes, but I'd also like to see more Cottages being developed.

Heliopolis also needs a Missionary sent to it, and lots more Buildings, such as Harbor and Temple. (And more Cottages)

Elephantine - harbor ... currently would add 1 cpt; with Currency, possibly another cpt. And more health. Forge would add more Happiness, and shields. Really needs both. Perhaps Forest chops now?

Alexandria - Granary, then ... harbor is OK, so would be Library.

Persepolis - faster Lighthouse is good; allows faster growth afterwords.

Novgorod - definitely needs a lot of development, so a Forge soon followed by other buildings. Cottages as well.

Pi-Ramses - lots of building to do; suggest Forge for long term building benefit.

PaulK - I believe you are up! Phabuk is on deck.

(edit - crossposted with PaulK; he's 'got-it')

 

[DaviddesJ]

Thebes should switch from rice to mined, and from floodplains farm to mine. This gives us forge in 3 (currently 6) for the loss of one gold. It should then build an aquaduct (as there will be -1 health with the forge), and assign an engineer. Spreading judaism there should be a priority as well, as happiness is maxed-out.

You're consistently overestimating the value of hammers compared to food. One food is worth quite a bit more than one hammer; extra food can be converted to hammers by pop rushing. It's also not as if there is a big hurry to get the buildings. We're going to get +3 happiness in the city soon (forge, spices) so the missionary is not urgent either.

Memphis will finish an aquadust soon - then what? Not many options. Research? Has both forge & library, so could start working towards a GP?

Hanging Gardens, is what I suggested above.

Moscow should stay on missionaries, although I think we could work farms instead of cottages, and perhaps build another farm next to the lake - it still has a lot of growth potential.

You really don't gain by working farms for +1 food instead of the +3 gold (more or less) from cottages. If you work out how many extra tiles you get to work from the extra growth, it's less benefit than just working cottages right away. Assuming you do have some bonus food, which we do.

Heliopolis is about to grow. Then can start working mines, and finish forge faster. How many cities do we want to go for GP in? This already has 60 GP points, so I think we should try and get the forge ASAP. It still has whip unhappiness, but can finish the forge in four-five turns if hills are worked.

This was my plan, too: growth, then finish the forge. I already chopped the forest nearby to help, I think. It still has residual unhappiness, so pop rushing isn't so good here.

Alexandria - should finish granary, then harbour? Maybe chop the forest to help?

If we get granary and Colossus, then that will be the time to switch the citizen from the silver mine to a coast (-2 gpt in the short term, but more growth in the long term).

Persepolis - perhaps wait two turns to grow, then work mines for a few turns to speed lighthouse? Then maybe build its own workboats (travel time from novgorad is quite a few turns!)

Eventually we will need to work mines (at least, the iron mine), but the improved food resources, and probably the lake+lighthouse, are worth more for growth (especially if we get Colossus). There's one workboat en route, and another under construction, but it may want to build one, after Colossus. We can also chop remaining forests.

The MM of the cities is good but it's not as important as overall strategy, at this point. (E.g., managing research and trading, positioning ships for upgrades and exploration, probably building some explorers.)

 

[ainwood]

You're consistently overestimating the value of hammers compared to food. One food is worth quite a bit more than one hammer; extra food can be converted to hammers by pop rushing. It's also not as if there is a big hurry to get the buildings. We're going to get +3 happiness in the city soon (forge, spices) so the missionary is not urgent either.

So what's the harm in getting the forge finished sooner c.f. letting the city grow (and spending a few turns unhappy?). The forge sooner gives the happiness bonus sooner, as well as letting us start on an engineer sooner. My suggestion was to get the forge, then go back to growth - I agree that growth is the most important factor. Judaism is still worthwhile, because the forge happiness only buys us a finite period of happiness.

You really don't gain by working farms for +1 food instead of the +3 gold (more or less) from cottages. If you work out how many extra tiles you get to work from the extra growth, it's less benefit than just working cottages right away. Assuming you do have some bonus food, which we do.

+2 food, if they're irrigated - which is why I suggested the one next to the lake. I spent quite a lot of time a few weeks back doing direct comparisons on whether it was better to grow the city before working cottages, or try to do both at the same time - the clear winner was growth. I even played around with discount factors (gold "now" being worth more than gold in the future), and growth was STILL the best option. I'm not suggesting pushing growth to sacrifice working the plantation or gems, but seeing as moscow is still well below the happiness and health caps, I think we should get it as big as possible, as fast as possible.

 

[DaviddesJ]

+2 food, if they're irrigated - which is why I suggested the one next to the lake.

I think you have some misunderstanding about how farms work. Except for food resources, the only tiles that can be farmed (without Biology) are "irrigated" tiles: i.e., those with access to fresh water, or, after Civil Service, those adjacent to other irrigated farms. The farm (with irrigation) adds +1 food to the tile. Just look at the farms we already have.

In a case like Moscow, where the city already has +7 food from the city center, rice, and cows (and soon will get another +2 from the sugar), you aren't going to get more commerce from working additional farms for growth than you will by working cottages. It's not a big difference though, certainly not something that's going to have a noticeable effect on our results. I do try to MM and shift from a cottage to farm when the +1 food will get us to the next growth step 1 turn sooner. But not because I think it's really important.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Heliopolis also needs a Missionary sent to it, and lots more Buildings, such as Harbor and Temple. (And more Cottages)

You can't have more of everything: they are mutually inconsistent. More buildings requires more hammers, which means we're working less food tiles, which means either slower growth or more farms instead of cottages.

The city was hurt by too much pop rushing many turns ago, and we're only coming out of that now. When we get back to being able to pop rush at reasonable cost (i.e., only 15 turns of unhappiness), we'll be able to add buildings rapidly.

In cities with Forge (for +25% production bonus), it's very beneficial to pop rush when the current project needs 45-56 hammers. Then you get +88 hammers for the cost of only 1 pop (bug). I didn't get to use this during my 10 turns, because I did hardly any pop rushing: we needed to grow. But it can be a big advantage over the next several turns.

 

[ainwood]

I think you have some misunderstanding about how farms work. Except for food resources, the only tiles that can be farmed (without Biology) are "irrigated" tiles: i.e., those with access to fresh water, or, after Civil Service, those adjacent to other irrigated farms. The farm (with irrigation) adds +1 food to the tile. Just look at the farms we already have.

Sorry - of course, you're right. We need to build next to the lake, not because of irrigation, but because we can't build a farm away from it.

In a case like Moscow, where the city already has +7 food from the city center, rice, and cows (and soon will get another +2 from the sugar), you aren't going to get more commerce from working additional farms for growth than you will by working cottages.

I redid the numbers - and you're correct. I did quite an analysis a few weeks back, and found the exact opposite - although the analysis was for a city without a granary, and on "normal" as opposed to epic.

For me, this therefore suggests that the decision on growth then cottages; or cottages then growth is a "depends". I was going to write a strategy article on it, and now that I've done this further analysis, I think its worthwhile.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I'd like someone to do a small test for planning purposes:

1. What are the exact circumstances where one can upgrade a Galley to Caravel (I think it just has to be within cultural borders?).

2. Does having an Explorer-type unit on a Galley keep it from being upgraded to Caravel?

To maximize our exploration we want to have a couple of ships ready to be upgraded and go, at appropriate points along our coast. If they have Explorers on board, and they can be upgraded in that situation, then that will help us make additional contacts when we reach overseas lands (and/or, possibly claim huts, on uninhabited islands).

 

[Paulk]

I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.
Paulk

 

[ainwood]

My 0.02:

* For the workers, get more cottages built.
* As to which to work? Generally, go for the higher commerce, but it depends on whether the village / hamlet is on grassland or plains, and whether the city has a lighthouse.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.

Sorry to hear that. Phabuk, then?

Remaining people: anything we can do to make this more fun and less stressful for everyone? Would less discussion/analysis be better---just let everyone do their own thing??

 

[DaviddesJ]

P.S. I think working a 2f 1c cottage is generally better than a 2f 2c coast. In only a few turns, the cottage will improve to equal the coast, so you're sacrificing 15g (at most) for a long-term payoff of a higher output.

The tradeoff between a 2f 1c cottage and a 2f 3c coast (with Colossus) is less clear. My inclination at this point in the game would be the latter, figuring that commerce now is worth more than commerce later. And that we're not worried about the very long term (i.e., space race timeframe).

 

[DaviddesJ]

P.P.S. We're definitely at the point in the game where we have more workers than we really need. This often seems to happen. I was almost tempted to disband a couple, when I took my turns, but I resisted the impulse (perhaps wrongly). I just figured there wasn't that much money to be saved, and there are some advantages to having extra workers. I do miss the option (from Civ3) to join them to cities.

If we are feeling really generous, we could continue the Gandhi-fest by gifting some to him. The AI is less efficient than we are at development, and he could probably use more workers.

 

[ainwood]

I cant play anymore, ever. Im sorry.
Paulk

Sorry to hear that.

 

[ainwood]

I'd like someone to do a small test for planning purposes:

1. What are the exact circumstances where one can upgrade a Galley to Caravel (I think it just has to be within cultural borders?).

2. Does having an Explorer-type unit on a Galley keep it from being upgraded to Caravel?

Galleys upgrade to galleons or frigates - you can't upgrade them to caravels.

Looks like we need to hammer-rich coastal cities.