SGOTM 01 - Peanut

[DaviddesJ]

Note: I will play in about 24 hours from this post; if you have any comments, please post them by then. I'm particularly interested in comments on whether I should set up for an immediate repeat attack on Cyrus, or withdraw WCs to our home continent while disbanding warriors (I lean toward the latter). Also, I want feedback on the idea of gifting Susa to Gandhi (I'm leaning toward it, unless I hear a contrary opinion).

 

[DaviddesJ]

P.S. Susa has access to wine, so that's a possible reason to keep it (but is it enough to justify 15 gpt?). I wish we had razed it and could then build later.

 

[civ_steve]

Let me start by saying its a crime to have St Pete's and Moscow at Size4, when they can be as high as Size11. Our Commerce problem is due to not growing our cities and not building and using Cottages. I would put Moscow on strict growth regimen, using Rice, Suger, Cows and Gems (growth in 1), and go from there. (So agree with #7 but with emphasis on growth). Monastery is OK, but secondary.

Also, we need several Workboats right away to work Persepolis' bonus spaces once it expands. I would use Novgorod for this, delaying Barracks for later.

Specific responses

#1 We get GS in 4 turns; if Susa and Compass is required for Calendar, I would trade it at this time. Long term it benefits us, but only if we build Cottages everywhere we can. Wine is a ways from benefitting us, since we're nowhere near pop limit anywhere (I guess that can be fixed fairly quickly)

#2 I like the plan. See #1 about using Susa also if Compass isn't enough to get Calendar. Definitely behind since another city wasn't generating GPP; 2nd GS is delayed 10 turns.

#3 Colossus? Not sure if I like it. It expires when we learn Astronomy (which is 3 Techs away, once our economy is restarted). Right now it only gets us an additional 6 Commerce/turn; we'll get more once Persepolis is online, but probably at most about +20 or so. I can go either way, but we should build it as fast as possible if we go for it.

#4 Yup

#5 See above; I prefer it help Persepolis get started by building Workboats. Cottages and Lighthouse are good additions (better than Barracks since we're high on units right now)

#6 It will want a Forge at some point; Lighthouse makes Colossus more valuable. Needs some cottages as well. Probably suggest Lighthouse first, then finish Forge, and focus on Growth.

#7 Agreed

#8 I'm inclined to dispose of Cyrus right away. It wont be until the next set of turns in either case, but we have the units to do it (at least the 2 nearby cities, probably leaving his Western cities). Don't mind disbanding any extra garrison troops we may have, but Unit costs are not our main issue.

So, focus on Growth and commerce generation is my main input.

 

[ainwood]

Persepolis already has two work boats, so I don't think getting more is ultra-urgent, although agree that the more, the better.

I'd like to get rid of cyrus straight away - we have enough units to do it, and have open border with gandhi, so can get to phonecian. Units costs will decrease if we lose a few as well...

As for our economy, it is pretty-much nerfed! We're going to have to go for a great-person research strategy, because I think it will take us a long time to recover. On this, I think that giving-away susa is a good option, although it does make us more reliant on the permanent alliance.

One thing to consider is that if we're going to commit ourselves to the permanent-alliance victory, then we will have to research further down the tech tree (otherwise, stopping at macemen + galleons was an option), although given how advanced that mans musa will be, this will probably turn-out to be the correct call anyway.

In terms of turning our economy around - I agree that getting to the pop limit is the key, with cottages (note that you're better to grow to the max on high-food tiles & farms, then switch to cottages - the effect is even higher if you have granaries; rather than work cottages early to grow them).

I'd also like to get code-of-laws. SOme courthouses would be very useful!

I like the suggestions for moscow - grow it - with rice & cows, as well as a farm, it can grow reasonably quickly. Seeing as there are forest to be cleared, is there anything wrong with chopping them (to build the monastry & then monks?) then cottaging the area.

Re the colossus - no strong feelings either way. I would probably stick to commerce (and maybe emphasising growth) - if we lose it, we at least get cash, which could be worth a lot to our cause.

 

[Phabuk]

I vote for Cyrus destruction right now!

I agree to give susa to gandhi if it helps to trade for calendar.

Nothing more... just the fact that we need to grow our population, it is the base of our economy.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Giving Susa to Gandhi won't get us any benefit in terms of trading for other things. The Civ4 model doesn't allow trading cities for tech---too exploitable.

I am quite surprised that everyone wants to attack Cyrus now given that everyone also agrees that we have an economic burden. If we attack Cyrus now, and keep his cities, that will further damage our economy, with little benefit to us any time soon. If we raze his cities, then Gandhi will claim that land, and the direct benefit to us is minimal. (Or we can capture them, and gift them to Gandhi, with similar effect.) Meanwhile, just fighting the war is very expensive in the short term (support for away troops, maintenance for more units), and will take quite some time if we want to march all the way to the west coast just to raze that city so that Gandhi can rebuild there.

Why not just leave Cyrus alone and grab his remaining cities when perhaps we've built up enough infrastructure that the additional cities aren't such a burden?? I guess I don't see the benefit that others are seeing, from attacking him again soon. The purpose of the last attack was to grab resources (which we did), the prime site of Persepolis (which we did), and cut off Cyrus from metal (which we did). What's the purpose of the next attack?

P.S. Our costs (for civics) are about 0.5-0.6 gold per pop, I think. So growing our pop does help our economy, but not as much or as quickly as some might think, as we also have to develop tiles for those citizens to work.

 

[DaviddesJ]

#3 Colossus? Not sure if I like it. It expires when we learn Astronomy (which is 3 Techs away, once our economy is restarted). Right now it only gets us an additional 6 Commerce/turn; we'll get more once Persepolis is online, but probably at most about +20 or so. I can go either way, but we should build it as fast as possible if we go for it.

We could also build 99% of the Colossus, then put it on hold until someone else completes it. Result is that we get 375 gold right away, as opposed to a commerce benefit from sea/ocean tiles which is probably in the range of 10-20 gpt for 50-100 turns. The latter is worth more in the long run but the former gives us an immediate benefit which we can leverage.

Either way it's worth building the Colossus (i.e., if we try to build it ourselves, but someone finishes it before us, that's good too).

Don't mind disbanding any extra garrison troops we may have, but Unit costs are not our main issue.

Being at war costs us probably something like 20 gpt for 20 turns. It's quite a lot.

 

[civ_steve]

I still have in my mind the Civ3 model for combat, and haven't fully incorporated the Civ4 costs of holding a larger empire.

With that in mind, and since we want the Marble city most likely, and Persepolis has nice Rivers and Forests we can use, I've switched my mind to delaying the attack on Cyrus to later. This would be more consistent with growing our economy; resuming the war will cost our economy even more at this time, and we really need to get back on track. Cyrus is mortally wounded and will not be a problem in the future.

Colossus discussion makes me feel better about this build.

Regarding Permanent Alliance - don't know if this is the way to go until we locate the rest of the AI and see what we're up against. If Susa is costing us 15 gpt (I see 8 in the city window; is the other 7 due to cost for the extra city spread over the empire?), gifting it would benefit us, short term, as much as completing Colossus would. But it would tip us towards the Permanent Alliance option (not necessarily a bad thing). I can go either way (probably a bit towards gifting it to Gandhi; need some research now!). Didn't know that Cities for Techs weren't an option. Don't know a lot of things about Civ4 yet!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Colossus discussion makes me feel better about this build.

At a minimum, Colossus will get us roughly 10 gpt, even if we work no water tiles except the ones with resources. So it's clearly worth building.

If Susa is costing us 15 gpt (I see 8 in the city window; is the other 7 due to cost for the extra city spread over the empire?), gifting it would benefit us, short term, as much as completing Colossus would.

Yes, that's right---the city has a cost itself, plus it increases the maintenance for all other cities, and also increases our civics cost a bit. My estimate of 15 gpt is based on the increment in total city maintenance from capturing the last two cities. We should subtract from that about 5 gpt that the city can easily generate (2 from trade, 1 from city core, 2 from additional tile), so the net cost of the city is about 10 gpt. It's not that hard to get this city to a rough balance, over a few tens of turns, but it's never going to be a big net contributor. In the long run, the only things it's going to give us are wine and territory (for domination).

 

[DaviddesJ]

By the way, if we were going to re-attack Cyrus soon, then we could gift Susa back to him now (perhaps after pillaging the copper mine), instead of gifting it to Gandhi. As long as we re-attack before he can hook up the copper, there wouldn't really be any downside for us. And we could raze it the next time we capture it (I think).

 

[civ_steve]

That sounds even better! I would hate to give away Wine Permanently. I would think Cyrus could wait roughly 20 to 30 turns; or maybe until we have Machinery just about in the bag.

 

[civ_steve]

Just thinking about this some more. We don't have Open Borders with Cyrus. If we gift Susa back to Cyrus, does it regain the Cultural Radius it had prior to us capturing it? If so, was it big enough to isolate Persepolis? If the answers are yes - yes, maybe not a good idea.

 

[ainwood]

My view on attacking cyrus was linked to the statement about being committed to needing a permanent alliance to win.

I don't mind waiting to attack cyrus - its just that I don't want to get stuck in a half-way house: paying maintenance on an attack force that we're not using, only to have them go obsolete before we attack - if cryus gets fuedalism, that's exactly where we'll be.

 

[Phabuk]

at least we could take parsagades and then make peace, and disband units to reduce the expanses. Cyrus will then really be down on his knees.

 

[DaviddesJ]

We don't have Open Borders with Cyrus, but I believe he would accept if we offer, so we would still connect our cities. He could revoke it at some future time, which might be a hassle.

I don't like gifting Susa back to him because in 30-40 turns he can likely connect copper and build spearmen and axemen. We can still kill him, though, so maybe that's not a huge issue. I can't imagine him getting Feudalism in time to matter, with his empire virtually destroyed.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I'm going to try to play my turns soon, and probably going to gift Susa to Gandhi. One further observation: given the wine location, we might actually be able to found a city nearer to the wine than Susa, and thus gain control over it culturally. Note that it will take Gandhi longer to expand his cultural borders, because he's not spiritual, although he does get 1 culture/turn from Judaism. Also, I do plan to pillage the copper mine (which gives us money? or does it have to be in someone's cultural borders?).

 

[ainwood]

Well, the comments re cultural borders are only really valid if we found a city "soon", but founding such a city would put us right-back in terms of maintenance - might as well just keep susa.

I think we should just forgo the wines - for now.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, the comments re cultural borders are only really valid if we found a city "soon", but founding such a city would put us right-back in terms of maintenance - might as well just keep susa.

Why? I think that if we have a city generating 5 culture/turn (let's say we chop a library, and bring in a jewish missionary) that's adjacent to the wine, and he has a city that's only generating 1 culture/turn (it would take him a long time to build a library, although maybe he will eventually) and is two spaces away from the wine, that it won't take us long to gain control of that space, even if he has controlled it for 30-40 turns and built up some influence there. Indeed, I think I've done this before.

Indeed, we might even get the wine without discovering Monarchy, if we can get him to build a winery there, and then push his borders back. (Does that work?)

Another possibility is that Gandhi may have a 2nd wine and be willing to trade us this one, as he did with the other resources we need.

 

[Phabuk]

I am leaving for the WE.
I 'll be back on monday, just in time to play after paulk...

 

[DaviddesJ]

200 AD save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_AD0200_01.Civ4SavedGame

I did my best to get our economy back on track. I decided not to disband very many units (because we might need them, and it's cheaper to keep them than rebuild them), so we're still at -11 gpt Unit Cost. But we're running a net +42 gpt (at 0% research), and +14 bpt (from specialists), so that's not too bad. I think we can get Machinery in about 10 turns (i.e., 4 more turns at 0%, then 6 turns at 100%).

My plan to gift Susa to Gandhi didn't work out exactly as expected; he apparently did a culture bomb there a few turns later, so he's got a lot of territory from it (but not territory that we particularly want or need). We aren't going to get the Wine, though.

We look good for getting the Colossus in 2 turns (with some micromanagement next turn). This will be a significant economic boost (especially in the short term). Gandhi got the Great Library (good---better than Huayna Capac getting it). I didn't start on the Hanging Gardens, but I suggest that Memphis do that next (after finishing the Aqueduct).

Unfortunately, we're 40 turns from a second GS in Heliopolis, although we can accelerate our GPP by building a forge and allocating an engineer soon (or perhaps by trading for Literature and building Heroic Epic somewhere). In less than 40 turns, i'm sure we can research Optics directly, so we may want to do that and then use our next GP toward Astronomy. Note that we're not necessarily in a big hurry to get Astronomy. Optics is very important, for making contact with Caravels. Getting Astronomy, to actually cross the oceans in force, is less important, unless/until we're ready to actually conquer people. I just started accumulating toward a third GP in Thebes (but PaulK can reverse that, if he wants).

I can't tell how we're actually doing in the team competition. We're #1 in score at 200 AD, by a lot. We've also turned Gandhi into a real superpower. Wiping out Cyrus primarily benefited him, I think. Not to mention all the resources we've given him. So, if we can get him on our side very strongly, that should be a big advantage. Note that we don't need to discover Communism for a Permanent Alliance (or Military Tradition for Defensive Pact); we just need Gandhi to discover those techs! That might be much easier!

Turn 170, 50 AD: Memphis citizen from hill/mine to floodplain/cottage
Turn 170, 50 AD: Moscow citizen from hill/mine to gems
Turn 170, 50 AD: Moscow citizen from hill/mine to sugar
Turn 170, 50 AD: Thebes citizen from town to farm
Turn 170, 50 AD: Heliopolis citizen from farm to scientist
Turn 170, 50 AD: Heliopolis citizen from desert/mine to scientist
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from forest to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from mine to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Elephantine citizen from quarry to coast
Turn 170, 50 AD: Novgorod build lighthouse after barracks
Turn 170, 50 AD: Pi-Ramesses build lighthouse before forge
Turn 170, 50 AD: Persepolis citizen from forest to lake
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in Alexandria
Turn 170, 50 AD: Pi-Ramesses axeman move toward Thebes
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in St Petersburg
Turn 170, 50 AD: Disband warrior in Moscow
Turn 170, 50 AD: WC pillage mine near Susa (15 gold!)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Gift Susa to Gandhi
Turn 170, 50 AD: Novgorod builds Barracks, begins Lighthouse.
Turn 170, 50 AD: Thespis has been born in a far away land!

Turn 171, 65 AD: Disband warrior in Thebes
Turn 171, 65 AD: Moscow citizen from mine to lake
Turn 171, 65 AD: Persepolis build granary before workboat
Turn 171, 65 AD: The borders of Persepolis have expanded!

Turn 172, 80 AD: Cyrus wants open borders: I agree
Turn 172, 80 AD: Gandhi has Drama
Turn 172, 80 AD: Persepolis citizen from lake to fish

Turn 173, 95 AD: Thebes citizen from farm to quarry
Turn 173, 95 AD: Xi Ling Shi has been born in Thebes!
Turn 173, 95 AD: Incensetopia builds Granary, begins Lighthouse.
Turn 173, 95 AD: Judaism has spread in Incensetopia.
Turn 173, 95 AD: Persepolis builds Granary, begins Work Boat.
Turn 173, 95 AD: The Great Library has been built in a far away land!

Turn 174, 110 AD: You have discovered Compass! (via GS)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Thebes scientist to rice
Turn 174, 110 AD: Thebes scientist to farm
Turn 174, 110 AD: Moscow sugar to cottage
Turn 174, 110 AD: Incensetopia spices to cows
Turn 174, 110 AD: Novgorod builds Lighthouse, begins Work Boat.

Turn 175, 125 AD: You have discovered Calendar! (trade for Compass)

Turn 176, 140 AD: Disband warrior in Memphis
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi has Monarchy
Turn 176, 140 AD: Pi-Ramesses builds Lighthouse, begins Work Boat.
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 177, 155 AD: Peace Treaty with Cyrus expires (no action taken)
Turn 177, 155 AD: Persepolis builds Work Boat, begins Lighthouse.

Turn 178, 170 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 54 $ for Memphis.

Turn 179, 185 AD: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!

Turn 180, 200 AD: Gandhi has Horseback Riding
Turn 180, 200 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 $ for Heliopolis.
Turn 180, 200 AD: Allocate 2 scientists in Thebes