SGOTM 01 - Peanut
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
DaviddesJ
Deity
More than a bit late for the Oracle, Huayna Capac built it in 1120 BC! That's how he got Civil Service, remember?
Thanks for the clarification on declaring War. You were concerned about marshalling our forces for optimal impact, hence the 2 turns delay. (I confused that 2 turns delay with leaving the Worker out building roads, not the case).
Good Luck, MailMan! Hope the 'purples' are feeling like trading.
And I agree that we should pick the pace up; Phabuk, you're next so be ready to 'get it' when MailMan posts his turns.
Good Luck, MailMan! Hope the 'purples' are feeling like trading.
And I agree that we should pick the pace up; Phabuk, you're next so be ready to 'get it' when MailMan posts his turns.
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Yeah - I remembered that this morning - 'cause they got bureaucracy as well. Hopefully that means they didn't get fuedalism, but IIRC, there was actually a bit of a gap between the oracle & civili service.DaviddesJ said:
DaviddesJ
Deity
ainwood said:
We don't know when he got Civil Service. There was a gap between when he built the Oracle, and when he switched to Bureaucracy. This could be because he wasn't able to (or chose not to) go through anarchy right away, or just because he spent several turns in anarchy.
Why so it is - Happy Birthday, DaviddesJ! 
Hope its 
Hope its 
MailMan
delivering
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the 565BC SAVE
summery:
early - met India, conquer Russia, trades for sailing
middle - research IW
late - trade IW for 3 techs
preturn
move chariots near Russia
1. 685BC
barb warrior showed up SW of capital
capital: axe --> WC
Memphis: library --> worker (let it grow to wear off happiness issues)
meet India and make a trade
which raises our relations:
I also traded cows for pigs and sign open borders treaty
We can not declare war on India!
I declared war on Catherine, took her worker and set it as bait.
Changed production in Alexandria to lighthouse
2. 670BC
Catherine did not took the worker bait.
we have 6 WC against her 3 archers:
the battle went like this:
1xp WC at 21.1% loses to archer (0.4 left)
combat III WC at 62.6% loses (1.2 left)
combat I WC at 28.3% retreat. the archer left with 1.9
combat II WC wins at 89.1%
combat II WC wins at 99.6%
combat I WC wins at 100%
Russia eliminated
set science to 100% (306g -38gpt). IW in 6
3. 655BC
St. Pete: library --> galley (transport for future settlers)
Moscow will be a great producing city. build a farm near it
4. 640BC
the barb warrior that showed up on the first turn tried to attack a WC and perished
Cyrus wanted alphabet. I said no
rushed barracks at Moscow. worker is next in line
5. 625BC
rushed granary at Heliopolis. lighthouse is next
6. 610BC
nothing really happened
7. 595BC
HC adopted OR
lower science to 20%
8. 580BC
game crashed reloaded from autosave
we got:
queue up metal casting. forges will give us 2 happy. set science to 0%
I connected the silver
there is iron SW of the capital, outside our borders.
Cyrus offered only myst for IW. it means that he is very close to researching it himself.
I made the deal in order to get more techs from India next turn.
Judaism spread to Moscow. I did not revolted to it since it will give us nothing at this point and ruin our relations with Cyrus.
if India request us to adopt it, we should accept.
9. 565BC
trade IW to India for poly + hunting.
switch Moscow to worker.
I thought I played 10 turns, but played only 9, so next player, can play 11.
summery:
early - met India, conquer Russia, trades for sailing
middle - research IW
late - trade IW for 3 techs
preturn
move chariots near Russia
1. 685BC
barb warrior showed up SW of capital
capital: axe --> WC
Memphis: library --> worker (let it grow to wear off happiness issues)
meet India and make a trade
which raises our relations:
I also traded cows for pigs and sign open borders treaty
We can not declare war on India!
I declared war on Catherine, took her worker and set it as bait.
Changed production in Alexandria to lighthouse
2. 670BC
Catherine did not took the worker bait.
we have 6 WC against her 3 archers:
the battle went like this:
1xp WC at 21.1% loses to archer (0.4 left)
combat III WC at 62.6% loses (1.2 left)
combat I WC at 28.3% retreat. the archer left with 1.9
combat II WC wins at 89.1%
combat II WC wins at 99.6%
combat I WC wins at 100%
Russia eliminated
set science to 100% (306g -38gpt). IW in 6
3. 655BC
St. Pete: library --> galley (transport for future settlers)
Moscow will be a great producing city. build a farm near it
4. 640BC
the barb warrior that showed up on the first turn tried to attack a WC and perished
Cyrus wanted alphabet. I said no
rushed barracks at Moscow. worker is next in line
5. 625BC
rushed granary at Heliopolis. lighthouse is next
6. 610BC
nothing really happened
7. 595BC
HC adopted OR
lower science to 20%
8. 580BC
game crashed reloaded from autosave
we got:
queue up metal casting. forges will give us 2 happy. set science to 0%
I connected the silver
there is iron SW of the capital, outside our borders.
Cyrus offered only myst for IW. it means that he is very close to researching it himself.
I made the deal in order to get more techs from India next turn.
Judaism spread to Moscow. I did not revolted to it since it will give us nothing at this point and ruin our relations with Cyrus.
if India request us to adopt it, we should accept.
9. 565BC
trade IW to India for poly + hunting.
switch Moscow to worker.
I thought I played 10 turns, but played only 9, so next player, can play 11.
Spoiler turnlog :
DaviddesJ
Deity
MailMan said:
I think it's better to send in the 4th level WC later, when it has an 80-90% chance, to advance it toward level 5 so we can build West Point eventually. Plus having an extra high-level unit is worth losing a lower-level unit. But not a big deal and I'm glad we won!
I would have interrupted this as soon as IW was available, in order to go help clear jungle and build mines near St Petersburg. You could always come back to finish the farm later. (I'm not convinced we'll need the farm, but I'm not sure. Certainly we don't need it right away. Note that, even without Calendar, we could get a 3f tile just by clearing the jungle on the sugar near Moscow.)
You didn't switch the citizen in Alexandria to work the silver mine! We should do this asap.
Are you sure? Maybe he just doesn't like us much (we declined to give him Alphabet, etc.).
Agree with that, in the long term we are likely to adopt Judaism to cement relationship with India. Cyrus will almost surely be our next target.
By the way, I think Novgorod should be building/chopping for a granary, not library. And lighthouse after granary. The biggest problem here will be growing the city. The library will take a long time and benefit will be minimal especially if the city has no granary or lighthouse and remains small.
ok i got the save.
good job mailman! we can now turn our eyes to the cyrus empire and make our people prosperous...
I will play the 11 turns in about 24 hours so please don't hesitate to give me your suggestions. I will already take into account Davidjes remarks.
My policy is to enhance production and trade to be strong enough for a good research level, to prepare a future invasion of cyrus.
concerning the galley, i'll go south and explore the unknown part of the cyrus coast.
we also should found a city, west of moscow, near horses and rice, with the new settler...
good job mailman! we can now turn our eyes to the cyrus empire and make our people prosperous...
I will play the 11 turns in about 24 hours so please don't hesitate to give me your suggestions. I will already take into account Davidjes remarks.
My policy is to enhance production and trade to be strong enough for a good research level, to prepare a future invasion of cyrus.
concerning the galley, i'll go south and explore the unknown part of the cyrus coast.
we also should found a city, west of moscow, near horses and rice, with the new settler...
DaviddesJ
Deity
Phabuk said:
Perhaps before that we should build a city near our iron deposit (either 1E of the iron, or 1E 1S), which can connect up iron for us, plus work the iron mine, rice farm, and eventually sugar plantation. This will be a strong production city.
By the way, I think the workers near Alexandria are wasting their time. We can chop down those forests, but why? The city will never do much, even with granary and lighthouse (and how long would it take to build all that?). Better to send them somewhere else where we need them more.
DaviddesJ
Deity
P.S. To elaborate on Alexandria, even if we had a Lighthouse right now, I'd still argue that we should work the silver (and not grow) rather than the coast. Five commerce in hand beats two now and the potential for more later.
Eventually we could come back and chop those forests, but we might as well wait until after Mathematics. If we have a Lighthouse and a Granary, eventually, then I could be swayed in favor of working the coast. The way to get there is to accumulate hammers by working the silver mine, and to save the forests until we have Math.
Meanwhile, improving other tiles (e.g., the rice farm near Thebes, a mine near Elephantine, maybe more cottages near Memphis, clearing jungles all around) look more important.
P.S. Also, shouldn't we be converting the farm near Thebes to a cottage? That looks much more useful than the farm NW of Heliopolis, which won't be needed for a long time. Eventually, I guess Heliopolis will be our GP center (unless we capture Cyrus's capital first), and we may want farms all around it. But it's quite a while before those will be needed.
Eventually we could come back and chop those forests, but we might as well wait until after Mathematics. If we have a Lighthouse and a Granary, eventually, then I could be swayed in favor of working the coast. The way to get there is to accumulate hammers by working the silver mine, and to save the forests until we have Math.
Meanwhile, improving other tiles (e.g., the rice farm near Thebes, a mine near Elephantine, maybe more cottages near Memphis, clearing jungles all around) look more important.
P.S. Also, shouldn't we be converting the farm near Thebes to a cottage? That looks much more useful than the farm NW of Heliopolis, which won't be needed for a long time. Eventually, I guess Heliopolis will be our GP center (unless we capture Cyrus's capital first), and we may want farms all around it. But it's quite a while before those will be needed.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Phabuk said:
I don't think we need much research to invade Cyrus. I think we should expect that we're going to roll over him with a big pile of swordsmen, and a sufficient number of galleys to get our troops there. Our research isn't so great (because of our high maintenance costs, which will only go higher), but our production is certainly unmatched by Cyrus and when you combine that with more intelligent battle tactics, we should be able to completely chew him up with swordsmen and axemen and our existing WC force. St Petersburg might build nothing but galleys (except perhaps a Lighthouse), as we'll want several of them both to transfer our forces over, and for rapid coastal redeployment. I think we should seriously consider hitting Persepolis in the initial wave of attacks---it's easy to attack from the sea, not on a hill, etc.
It would be great if we can get India to join us in the war. I don't have a lot of experience with diplomatic manipulation (it's not usually the part of the game that interests me the most), but here I think we should be thinking in terms of making India our really, really good friend (conveniently, we can convert to Judaism) and getting him to war to distract Cyrus. But is Gandhi too peaceful to be persuaded in this way?
Of course, massive further expansion through conquest will slow our research even further, in the short term. Yet, if we remain friendly with Gandhi, we can keep up through trading, and eventually we'll be a superpower so that we can quickly rule the world once we do get Astronomy.
My guess is that our initial workboat will finish circumnavigating the Cyrus/Gandhi continent soon, and that other lands won't be reachable without Optics. But that's just a guess.
If we find a way to make further contacts, then that's even a stronger argument for attacking Cyrus sooner rather than later. (The more people we have to trade with, the less we mind slowing our own research somewhat.)
We should pay close attention to all of the places where it might be possible to cross to a new continent. E.g., the tile 6W of Elephantine could theoretically be Coast. Also, the tiles 5S 3W of Madras, and 7S 1W of Madras, are worth revisiting at some point. (But, let's definitely finish the current circumnavigation first.)
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Not necessarily. If cyrus & gandhi are different religions, there will be tension. Cyrus is fairly aggressive - so they may not like each other much (although a check on the diplo screen should confirm this). As such, we may be able to either get him to join us in a war on cyrus, or, if that's not possible, he may be convinced to dog-pile once we take a city or two (although, that's a bit late...)DaviddesJ said:
DaviddesJ
Deity
ainwood said:
That's true. Gandhi is currently cautious toward Cyrus (+1 for peaceful relations, -3 for different religions).
I think that's not necessarily too late. Suppose we attack from the sea and grab two cities quickly (Persepolis and the one farther north, just inland from copper). Then we convince Gandhi to declare war. This could serve the main purpose, of drawing Cyrus away from harassing us further, and perhaps getting him to make peace with us down the road. We probably aren't going to have enough forces to completely roll over all of his cities without pausing, we're going to want to eat him up in two gulps, like Catherine.
I haven't attempted to draw up an actual production schedule, but I imagine we could do this in as few as 30-40 turns from now. Build up several galleys, transport our WCs over to the new continent and explore it all (using open borders to our advantage), then park them just outside his territory and declare war while landing stacks of swordsmen and axemen to make war along with the WCs. If we only need enough troops to grab two target cities, this won't be that hard to do.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Phabuk said:
P.S. Don't forget to transport some WCs to the new world. You can use them to explore all the interior, while the ships check out the coastal areas and look for new lands. On the other hand, limit the number somewhat, so we don't pay unnecessary unit support costs. (We get free supply for 4 units outside our borders.) Growing our city population as much as possible will also help with unit support costs, if we keep building our armies. (This is the main reason I started building axemen instead of WCs; dollar for dollar, the WCs are probably better, but they also cost more to maintain, which adds up while we're not at war. Similarly, when we hook up iron we should build primarily swordsmen, for the same reason.)
P.P.S. Unit maintenance formulas are here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141475
There's a lot to digest right now, and it's been a long day ... so I'll put that off for now! I did have one question - MailMan said that he couldn't declare on India. I'm assuming this means we are in locked peace with India. One thing that occurs to me is that this will make Domination much more difficult if there's an entire race whose cities we can't capture! Especially if Gandhi occupies a significant chunk of real estate. Perhaps a strategy (once we know where everyone else is and their status) is to use Gandhi as front line troops, let him get beat about and lose cities to our enemies, then swoop in to capture them ourselves. Hope this makes sense, and this is future stuff to think about, rather then something to take action on immediately.
DaviddesJ
Deity
I don't think it's going to be hard to achieve Domination without being able to fight Gandhi. He's got 11% of the land area now, he's likely to get up to 20% or so by taking his half of the continent and some of Cyrus's land, but he's not going to go much higher. When we overrun Huayna Capac we'll be able to get effectively 80%; it will just take a while.
Since Permanent Alliances are enabled, we can also form a PA with Gandhi to achieve domination. But my goal is really to win before Communism/Fascism.
Realistically, it looks like Huayna Capac was given a huge head start (a big land mass to himself, and a bunch of huts?), so winning the game essentially comes down to conquering him.
Since Permanent Alliances are enabled, we can also form a PA with Gandhi to achieve domination. But my goal is really to win before Communism/Fascism.
Realistically, it looks like Huayna Capac was given a huge head start (a big land mass to himself, and a bunch of huts?), so winning the game essentially comes down to conquering him.
DaviddesJ
Deity
By the way, my plan to attack Cyrus from the sea works better if we maintain Open Borders with him (in order for our galleys to be able to position themselve s offshore from his cities we want to attack, they will have to move through some of his territory. So we should think carefully before doing anything to upset him (e.g., adopting Judaism as our religion). On the other hand, I agree with MailMan that if Gandhi asks us to convert to Judaism (or for almost anything else, within reason) we should agree to it, as it's more important to maximize his happiness with us.
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