SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[mushroomshirt]

At the risk of being controversial, I have been doing some thinking (dangerous, I know)... I wonder if we really do a good job churning out troops now, can we just find and kill any civ around with sheer numbers? Maybe we should think about turning off the tech and just killing HC and everyone else as fast as we can. He will be the toughest and the other civs should fall easily after him.

This SGOTM is about speed, so imagine that we turn off tech and rely on money from conquests to keep us afloat. I don't think there is anything stopping us from taking down HC with maces and catapults and just rolling over everyone else to get to the domination limit.

I have never done this too successfully, but I did manage a domination victory in ~1550 last GOTM with knights. I could have done even better if I had a coherent strategy like we have the opportunity to put together. My guess is with proper turning off tech and switch to police state & military emphasis we could win this game in 50-75 turns.

This talk about communism & PAs make me a little nervous. I don't think we need them. All we need is astronomy, a military industrial base & enough conquered cities w/ spammed cottages to keep us from crashing economically while we deficit spend at 0% science until we win.

My guess is that the team that wins this SGOTM will take exactly this path. I know I have suggested infrastructure techs as our next path in the past, but I am starting to think that we really don't need them. By switching to all military mode now we give ourselves the best shot of winning quickly.

In any case, I think the test we need to apply to any strategy is "how does this strategy help us achieve a domination win faster?" I would argue that post-Astronomy, military build up and 0% tech spending is the most efficient way to reach our goal. I think that's definitely the simplest plan & less can go wrong with simple plans.

 

[Danthor]

Before undertaking any such drastic path, I say we should explore the world. Know where are the other civs and how big their continents are.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Before undertaking any such drastic path, I say we should explore the world. Know where are the other civs and how big their continents are.

I think what you are saying IS part of the path. We need to explore before we conquer. In fact, let's apply my "test" to your suggestion:

Q: How does exploring the world and knowing where other civs are and how big their continents are help us achieve a domination victory faster?

A: We need to know where they are and what tactics to employ before we conquer them.

In fact, it is most important to know where HC is, where his cities are and what his continent looks like. Based on the power graphs, HC will be our toughest challenge. After taking him out other civs (like Cyrus) will fall like dominoes.

I'm not sure it's drastic to undertake the strategy that most directly targets our objective which is domination as fast as possible. No one can argue that is what we are all trying to do. The only thing we can argue about is the WAY we go about doing it. If you know of a faster way to domination victory at this point than 100% focus on military, then that's what we should do - no argument from me.

Edited because Cyrus is actually stronger than HC and before meeting other civs, I'm not sure I can predict that HC will be toughest. Still we are at permanent war with HC and probably should take him out first per some previous analysis by Grogs, others.

 

[Grogs]

What you say has some merit. Certainly most of the really fast conquest/domination write-ups I've read in the GOTM's shut off research at a certain point. I think we should grab a few more techs before we consider heading that route though, specifically: guilds (after we trade for HBR & Feudalism with Cyrus,) engineering, and drama. We may be able to pick engineering and drama up from Ghandi after we discover Astronomy (assuming he doesn't beat us there.)

 

[mushroomshirt]

What you say has some merit. Certainly most of the really fast conquest/domination write-ups I've read in the GOTM's shut off research at a certain point. I think we should grab a few more techs before we consider heading that route though, specifically: guilds (after we trade for HBR & Feudalism with Cyrus,) engineering, and drama. We may be able to pick engineering and drama up from Ghandi after we discover Astronomy (assuming he doesn't beat us there.)

I have a feeling that people are going to get sick of this, but let's apply my test to this tech path:

Q: How does picking up Guilds, engineering and drama help us achieve a domination win faster?

A: guilds give us knights which have a 2 movement which can help us conquer faster and could return the investment we make in picking up this tech. Likewise engineering give us an extra movement along roads, so ditto for that one.

I can see a pretty good argument here for these two techs (guilds and engineering). Grogs, I know you are a big drama fan. Can you argue that drama helps us achieve a domination win faster like guilds and engineering does? I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just not a big user of drama in my games so I'm inexperienced in judging its benefits.

 

[Grogs]

I can see a pretty good argument here for these two techs (guilds and engineering). Grogs, I know you are a big drama fan. Can you argue that drama helps us achieve a domination win faster like guilds and engineering does? I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just not a big user of drama in my games so I'm inexperienced in judging its benefits.

Theaters are a big help when it comes to dealing with war weariness. You'll get +1 happiness straight off with dye (which we're getting from Ghandi) and +2 for every notch of the culture slider. Our biggest cities are running pretty close to the happiness limit right now, so even a little WW can start making unhappy citizens. With the culture slider, we can compensate for that. Without it, we may start seeing our cities starve down and our production and commerce dwindle.

 

[llib_rm]

I have a feeling that people are going to get sick of this, but let's apply my test to this tech path:

Q: How does a bee line to Chemistry help us achieve domination faster?

A: Frigates & Grenadiers! nuff said?



I will play tonight...

 

[mushroomshirt]

Theaters are a big help when it comes to dealing with war weariness. You'll get +1 happiness straight off with dye (which we're getting from Ghandi) and +2 for every notch of the culture slider. Our biggest cities are running pretty close to the happiness limit right now, so even a little WW can start making unhappy citizens. With the culture slider, we can compensate for that. Without it, we may start seeing our cities starve down and our production and commerce dwindle.

OK- makes sense, although I have never run into this problem running police state or hereditary rule. (I don't have a lot of experience with representation). I also have little experience with the culture slider. It always seemed like a bad investment to me to crank up the culture slider on your whole economy just to get another happy in one city. I guess if your happiness problem is widespread, this makes sense though. Do we have temples in our largest cities yet? This could help, too.

I would make the following suggestions though:
1) Police state can help significantly with war weariness and build our military production. The switch from representation would lose two happy in our largest cities. I think we should really consider making this switch after we have scouted out some other civs and can trade for their happiness resources to make up for the loss. Increased military production will directly help meet our objective.
2) we aren't at war now so we won't have a war weariness problem until we go to war with someone who is not HC (looks like we aren't affected by war weariness from him). Since we don't need theaters immediately, sounds like the right tech priority is the way Grogs had it in the original post: guilds, followed by engineering, then drama. If we can trade for these techs so much the better.

After those three techs, is there anything else that will help us reach the domination limit faster?

 

[mushroomshirt]

Q: How does a bee line to Chemistry help us achieve domination faster?

A: Frigates & Grenadiers! nuff said?



I will play tonight...

I'm with you provided we can't already walk all over all our opponents. Once we scout folks out and see if they are equal or ahead of us in tech, I'm right there with you. Until then, I'm not sure we can't take everyone out with macemen & maybe knights.

 

[Danthor]

OK- makes sense, although I have never run into this problem running police state or hereditary rule. (I don't have a lot of experience with representation). I also have little experience with the culture slider. It always seemed like a bad investment to me to crank up the culture slider on your whole economy just to get another happy in one city. I guess if your happiness problem is widespread, this makes sense though. Do we have temples in our largest cities yet? This could help, too.

Hmmm, I have never ever used Police State and only use Hereditary Rule when I'm beaten to the Pyramids. Representation rules, then I switch to Universal Sufferage once I get Free speech, emancipation and Free Market.
The culture slider is useful for rapid border expansion of your newly conquered cities.

 

[Danthor]

Q: How does a bee line to Chemistry help us achieve domination faster?

A: Frigates & Grenadiers! nuff said?



I will play tonight...

Indeed! Plus, if we train enough maceman with raider I & II, then upgrade them into Grenadiers when we get Chemistry (grenadiers can't promote to Raider path) we won't need Catapults at all!
This needs a bit of money though.

 

[mushroomshirt]

The culture slider is useful for rapid border expansion of your newly conquered cities.

Not to belabor the point, but I understand that the culture slider is useful, it just feels like a blunt instrument to me. While you are expanding culture or increasing happiness in your target cities you are doing the same in cities where you don't care about happiness or culture. It could be the type of game I usually play, but I prefer more focused ways to solve the happiness problem or culture. Missionaries work great for culture when you aren't running caste system & have artists. Pop rushing and city improvements work for happiness. These remedies have always seemed better to me since they are more focused on the one city where you need the help.

 

[Grogs]

Indeed! Plus, if we train enough maceman with raider I & II, then upgrade them into Grenadiers when we get Chemistry (grenadiers can't promote to Raider path) we won't need Catapults at all!
This needs a bit of money though.

Yep. If we're going to go all military 0% science, we definitely want to retool the specialists in Elephantine to try and produce merchants. They're probably worth 1500, if not 2000g for a trade mission to Dehli by now.

Not to belabor the point, but I understand that the culture slider is useful, it just feels like a blunt instrument to me. While you are expanding culture or increasing happiness in your target cities you are doing the same in cities where you don't care about happiness or culture. It could be the type of game I usually play, but I prefer more focused ways to solve the happiness problem or culture. Missionaries work great for culture when you aren't running caste system & have artists. Pop rushing and city improvements work for happiness. These remedies have always seemed better to me since they are more focused on the one city where you need the help.

It is a blunt instrument, to be sure, but right now some of our cities have tapped out every happiness building they have. And we'll lose 2 happy faces right off the bat when we switch to Police State, which will make Thebes and maybe a couple of other cities unhappy. It's just a few cities, yes, but it's our most productive, highest commerce cities, not to mention our GP center.

 

[mushroomshirt]

It is a blunt instrument, to be sure, but right now some of our cities have tapped out every happiness building they have. And we'll lose 2 happy faces right off the bat when we switch to Police State, which will make Thebes and maybe a couple of other cities unhappy. It's just a few cities, yes, but it's our most productive, highest commerce cities, not to mention our GP center.

Makes sense. Thanks to you and Danthor for helping me understand the benefit of this. The way I am hearing what you're saying is that by cranking up the culture slider (and sacrificing a few gold per turn) we can keep producing merchant specialists in Elephantine and get 1500-2000 gold out of the deal from a trade mission to Delhi. This seems like a great return on investment to me and we get the collateral effects of having other cities get happy, too.

 

[ungy]

Found my way to a computer and thought I'd check in--much to my disappointment. I think it is disrespectful to seven teammates to take the helm without reading the posts and totally redirect the strategy--especially when that redirection is based on some fundamental misconceptions.

 

[ungy]

As to where we go now--don't have the save so not sure where we're at but my guess is that we need grenadiers at least to take the world. All these wars take time and HC will surely have longbows and probably Knights. Is a big difference with some tech superiority. As for research path I would go the chemistry route for sure--although in slower games I usually go rifle, here getting the gunpowder units quicker is important, and we may also need frigates.

I would not attack Cyrus until we know what else is out there--he will be easy now and easy later. It is possible there is a more tempting target close to the east. I'm guessing later we can easily manage a two front war but now we're one at a time.

I would build the FP in Moscow--later on another continent may be better but I think it is a classic civ mistake (civ3 too) to delay the FP too long to get a better location. The value is its effects times the number of turns you get them--and sooner is more important than later. Moscow is not ideal but we lose lots of time by stalling. We could make a palace jump if someplace good not too far to E anyway.

Circumnavigation is huge--we will surely be conducting major overseas operations--I think we still likely to get it. I would send 2 caravels east and one west immediately.

 

[ungy]

Promotions--
on grenadiers the city raider path is somewhat overrated--we will be attacking longbows in cities so -25% to them is better, but not hugely so compared to +10% to us. We also get a lot better vs. knights with the combat promo.

 

[ungy]

General strategy-
I would pretty much give up on the PA and plan on max units and conquest with grenadiers. I think while it would pretty much end the game--way too distant and uncertain.

HC see what he's got--hard to decide anything in the dark. My experience(although mostly on higher levels) is that he tends to build a lot of units. I'd give some thought to the decoy strategy and two waves if we go for him first.

 

[Danthor]

Promotions--
on grenadiers the city raider path is somewhat overrated--we will be attacking longbows in cities so -25% to them is better, but not hugely so compared to +10% to us. We also get a lot better vs. knights with the combat promo.

No way! Don't forget we are talking about lvl 3 units (that is, with 2 promotions), so a unit with Raider I & II gets +45% attacking a city instead of 20% with Combat I&II, or 35% with combat I and the promo vs. Archery.
Knight don't receive defensive bonuses, so they are crappy city defenders and on the field we can take them easily with halberdiers.

It is much better to have a specialized army than a homogeneous all-around one.

 

[mushroomshirt]

HC see what he's got--hard to decide anything in the dark. My experience(although mostly on higher levels) is that he tends to build a lot of units. I'd give some thought to the decoy strategy and two waves if we go for him first.

Power graph shows HC is well below us and even below Cyrus! This is encouraging for conquest. Your decoy strategy sounds like a good one, but I wouldn't be surprised if HC goes down easier than we are thinking now.