SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[Grogs]

Oki dokie! I'll try to have it finished before the World Cup starts, otherwise I'll finish it Monday/Tuesday. Have you read the other team's spoilers yet? Team VQ SUCKS and Team One looks similar to us.

I just took a look at it myself (I was busy writing up my first spoiler for GOTM07.) You're right, VQ is hurting. 1325 AD and they're researching Civil Service. I think, though my spanish isn't the greatest, we researched that in 680 AD. Write up the spoiler whenever you have a chance. There's no real hurry.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I assume everyone agrees war with H.C. is the next step. He has stagnated and now he and Saladin are the best targets. I didn't check if the FP was built in Moscow but if not then move the build site to Incan land.

I agree. Incas should go first.

For our final techs I would propose engineering, music (culture slider for war weariness), gunpowder, chemistry, and possibly banking. This is going to be a long series of wars with a very stretched empire we may need to build some banks to upgrade CR2 maces. Any thoughts on other techs, attack orders? Do we want to push to communism for an alliance with Ghandi or just try to keep him stuck with Cyrus on their continent?

We actually don't need music. It's drama that enables culture slider adjustment and we already have this.

As far as techs, I think we should be very careful to justify the return on investment of any tech path at this point. I think Lmtoops has pointed out that the path to communism is long. Even if we get there, it's not a sure thing to get a PA with Gandhi. I think this makes the communism path a poor investment right now.

As for banking, this one may be worth it if we run into economic problems, but it is cheap to research and maybe we'll be able to trade for it if we do need it. I think we have a good shot at not needing banking if we take civs down pretty much in tact (only pillaging strategic resources like iron) and then cottaging the hell out of the conquered civs ungy style while we build military on our core continent. So I would put this lower on the priority list.

What do people think about racing to chemistry, followed by turning off tech and a switch to vassalage and police state? A lot of people have argued for chemistry, so I see the light on that one & can see how it will help us achieve domination faster.

So, I would propose war with H.C., war with Saladin, and finish with Teddy. I don't think Teddy will get that many techs from trade but he is now the most powerful civ. We will probably need grenadiers before attacking Teddy since the distance is too far to quickly shuttle maces into a meatgrinder of a war.

As for a target after HC, I actually think Roosevelt is the one to go for. As you point out he's the strongest (after us and Gandhi, though) and he's closer to gunpowder. Add the fact that he's a financial civ and we could be in trouble if we wait! The distance is daunting, but we can always use Gandhi's continent as a staging area, shuttle troops over there via a galleon bridge and then from there over to Roosevelt's continent via another bridge.

 

[Grogs]

We actually don't need music. It's drama that enables culture slider adjustment and we already have this.

Music lets you build culture, which is quite a bit less useful than the culture slider. It is on the path to MT though (Music->philosophy->nationalism->MT + Gunpowder = cavalry) so if we could get it in a trade that would be nice.

As for banking, this one may be worth it if we run into economic problems, but it is cheap to research and maybe we'll be able to trade for it if we do need it. I think we have a good shot at not needing banking if we take civs down pretty much in tact (only pillaging strategic resources like iron) and then cottaging the hell out of the conquered civs ungy style while we build military on our core continent. So I would put this lower on the priority list.

I hate pillaging. It's fine if you're going for a conquest win, but pretty sorry for domination. Like you, I only pillage strategic resources, and even then I may not if I can just park a unit on top of it for a few turns until I capture the nearby city. My understanding of the 'fast domination' strategy is that we build a CH, barracks, and maybe a granary in each captured city, then units, units, units.

What do people think about racing to chemistry, followed by turning off tech and a switch to vassalage and police state? A lot of people have argued for chemistry, so I see the light on that one & can see how it will help us achieve domination faster.

I've never been a big fan of vassalage. Switching out of Bureaucracy will hurt us quite a bit financially and make Thebes a much more average production city.

As for a target after HC, I actually think Roosevelt is the one to go for. As you point out he's the strongest (after us and Gandhi, though) and he's closer to gunpowder. Add the fact that he's a financial civ and we could be in trouble if we wait! The distance is daunting, but we can always use Gandhi's continent as a staging area, shuttle troops over there via a galleon bridge and then from there over to Roosevelt's continent via another bridge.

Yeah, HC->Washington->Saladin was the order I was thinking of as well. Washington is close to Ghandi tech-wise, while Saladin is more on Cyrus's level. We'll probably face the same strength defenders going after Saladin as we face going after Washington using that route. If we go after Washington last, he'll have riflemen, and maybe even infantry guarding his cities.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I hate pillaging. It's fine if you're going for a conquest win, but pretty sorry for domination. Like you, I only pillage strategic resources, and even then I may not if I can just park a unit on top of it for a few turns until I capture the nearby city. My understanding of the 'fast domination' strategy is that we build a CH, barracks, and maybe a granary in each captured city, then units, units, units.

Not so sure about granaries. These are good for score, but can hurt in maintenance costs and score doesn't count in this game. I'm with you on CH barracks and unit spam. (side note, I used your recommendation CH, barracks and granaries in my GOTM06 win & got some comments on the granaries. Here's a link to the post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4071656&postcount=61)

I know in a "pure" fast domination you wouldn't need cottages, but I've never been able to pull this off properly. If we shut off science we will probably be deficit spending while running 0% science at some point. Cottages would be a good buffer in case we need our economy to recover a little at some point. Still, we could probably get the same effect from running merchants or getting lots of great merchants, so maybe cottages should be out in captured lands (unless already there of course) in favor of unit development.

I've never been a big fan of vassalage. Switching out of Bureaucracy will hurt us quite a bit financially and make Thebes a much more average production city.

For me this is like the culture slider discussion, but here I am on the other side in favor of the blunt instrument (vassalage). Bureaucracy gives a great benefit, but it only applies to one city. If we are building lots of units in lots of cities, the +2 experience is spread over a lot of cities, with enough cities spamming units, the +2 experience can be a bigger benefit than building military a little faster in Thebes. Also lower unit support costs for a big military will help across the board and at some point this could outweigh the +50% commerce in Thebes. Of course I haven't done the math on the support costs, so I'm not sure where the break-even point is, but it must be there!

PS (EDIT) - looks like from a post in the maintenance thread and the screwy score graph on the results page that Team One has won in 1610, so I guess we need to target at least being faster than that. I really think we have a good shot at ending this very soon if we focus on military & war.

 

[Grogs]

Not so sure about granaries. These are good for score, but can hurt in maintenance costs and score doesn't count in this game. I'm with you on CH barracks and unit spam. (side note, I used your recommendation CH, barracks and granaries in my GOTM06 win & got some comments on the granaries. Here's a link to the post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4071656&postcount=61)

Yeah, I was quoting from your GOTM write-up. That's what gave me the idea. Granaries are probably pretty situational. If we capture a city that's size 2 or something and we've got free wrokers who can chop out buildings, it might not be a bad idea. A granary would grow the city and let it become a better production city faster.

I know in a "pure" fast domination you wouldn't need cottages, but I've never been able to pull this off properly. If we shut off science we will probably be deficit spending while running 0% science at some point. Cottages would be a good buffer in case we need our economy to recover a little at some point. Still, we could probably get the same effect from running merchants or getting lots of great merchants, so maybe cottages should be out in captured lands (unless already there of course) in favor of unit development.

We'll have to look at how many workers we've got too. We'll have quite a few thigs to do in our captured cities, i.e., chop CH's/barracks/etc, build roads to the next city to be invaded, and so forth. We may not have a lot left over for massive cottage spamming.

For me this is like the culture slider discussion, but here I am on the other side in favor of the blunt instrument (vassalage). Bureaucracy gives a great benefit, but it only applies to one city. If we are building lots of units in lots of cities, the +2 experience is spread over a lot of cities, with enough cities spamming units, the +2 experience can be a bigger benefit than building military a little faster in Thebes. Also lower unit support costs for a big military will help across the board and at some point this could outweigh the +50% commerce in Thebes. Of course I haven't done the math on the support costs, so I'm not sure where the break-even point is, but it must be there!

Assuming we're running 0% science, I guess the break-even point would be the point when the Bureaucracy bonus to commerce is producing less gold than vassalage (minus the increased civic cost) would save us. Considering the +2 experience, maybe a bit before that.

PS (EDIT) - looks like from a post in the maintenance thread and the screwy score graph on the results page that Team One has won in 1610, so I guess we need to target at least being faster than that. I really think we have a good shot at ending this very soon if we focus on military & war.

They edited the graph before I saw it, but yeah, they definitely sound like they've fininshed. Actually, they come right out and say it, so not much mystery. 1610 is about 85 turns ahead of where we're at I believe.

 

[ungy]

got back--just taking a look at the save and reading posts.

A few thoughts: seems natural to take out HC here. Can't think of a reason to go another direction so I will move in for the attack. As distances are short will scout a bit with one galleon and proceed accordingly.

Settling-will settle the fur/deer island. Not sure if we should settle the 2 fish island immediately--I think maybe send a worker over first for a few quick chops. I think settle so we can pick up the whale too--I guess is better than both fish.

HC war: as HC has guilds I think eng a priority but I don't think worth trading asto to Roosevelt for. I will start building knights--I think they will be very useful against HC.

Tech: I think we surely need grenadiers--remember it will be a lot of turns before we get to Roosevelt and knights alone are too vulnerable to pike. So I figure build the knights now and then switch to gren when avail (some pike in between). So maybe go gunpowder next and then eng (if no good trading opportunity).

Looking at the info screen we don't have a huge army or a tech lead so will have to play carefully vs. HC. Don't think we just waltz in there and walk over him. I think if I can find a good spot I will try landing a decoy force to lure his army to destruction.

As for another team finishing already, my guess is we are not on track for a first place finish whatever we do but let's not let that get us down.

I am planning on playing tomorrow night--all comments welcome especially as I have been out of the flow these last few sets.

 

[ungy]

long term I think we win by domination so I think we drop the tech at some point. Is chemistry enough?--let's see how the next set goes. I should get there or almost and we can evaluate position. I will not research past chemistry.

 

[ungy]

Vassalage/ vs bureaucracy
+2 exp +17g (units)? -5g cost, -around 11h and around -37g in thebes
am I understanding the tradeoff correctly? I think if that is the cost I would leave us as is.

 

[ungy]

War strategy: I think it is a good gamble that Cyrus does not attack us--we are way stronger and pulling away from him as well as friendly. Not sure I have ever been attacked in that position especially by an AI that is not too aggressive. So until someone else has astro I think can send our best to HC and leave obsolete garrisons.

 

[ungy]

I hate pillaging. It's fine if you're going for a conquest win, but pretty sorry for domination. Like you, I only pillage strategic resources, and even then I may not if I can just park a unit on top of it for a few turns until I capture the nearby city. My understanding of the 'fast domination' strategy is that we build a CH, barracks, and maybe a granary in each captured city, then units, units, units.

Agree completely

 

[ungy]

Cottages-
I think that ship pretty much sailed. I don't think we're looking at too long a game and they take a while to get going from here. So I would figure chopping CH and units better or just focusing on production.

 

[Grogs]

Sounds like it's time to square our shoulders and go kick some AI butt. I'll adjust my mental slider from empire building to domination, though I admit that can be difficult at times. The good news is that while Roosevelt (and Ghandi) has more military than we do, we've got a lot more production, not to mention the AI's will continue building banks, universities, etc, while we will be building mostly units.

I'm not even sure we need to do a decoy force on HC, per se. We've got a big enough force right now that it can probably take a few cities. We should try and land it in some woods beside a city, where it will draw a counterattack while it bombards away the city defenses, then goes on to take a city or two. Once we have more galleons / the original ones have returned, we can land another attack force on the other side of HC's continent. Foot sloggers take a long time to get from city to city, especially when the AI has large cultural borders, so let's use the faster speed of the galleons to speed that up by attacking from more than one place - go after the big, productive cities and cripple him as quickly as possible.

 

[mushroomshirt]

As for another team finishing already, my guess is we are not on track for a first place finish whatever we do but let's not let that get us down.

We don't know this for sure. Let's get aggressive with HC and take him down as fast as possible. When we have dealt him a severe blow but haven't killed him, let's start moving against roosevelt. Let's not wait until we have totally destroyed him to start our next war. Vassalage may not be necessary, but Police state is what we need now, I'm convinced of it. It may slow us down a little researching chemistry, but we really won't need that until Roosevelt.

Let's at least do our best to beat 1610!

 

[ungy]

I'm not even sure we need to do a decoy force on HC, per se. We've got a big enough force right now that it can probably take a few cities. We should try and land it in some woods beside a city, where it will draw a counterattack while it bombards away the city defenses, then goes on to take a city or two. Once we have more galleons / the original ones have returned, we can land another attack force on the other side of HC's continent. Foot sloggers take a long time to get from city to city, especially when the AI has large cultural borders, so let's use the faster speed of the galleons to speed that up by attacking from more than one place - go after the big, productive cities and cripple him as quickly as possible.

Yeah wasn't planning a formal decoy--just since we don't have a unit yet that can stand against a knight in the open I'm not going to charge in. Our force is large, but not that large that we can squander units. I'll get a few pike in a hurry and try and bleed him from a good defensive position in the meantime.

The info screen shows us with 8 mace and 11 weaker melee units. As we are against longbow, the mace are more or less even money (assuming no hill), and we're in trouble vs. a hill. So we need upgrades to get the numbers we need, which will slow grenadiers considerably. I think the weaker units are pretty much useless w/o upgrade. We also need to defeat his counterattack force--we will have no bonus in a new city so even a few knights are serious trouble.
Don't worry, I think we make progress on my watch but I just don't want people to think we roll over the AI with what we have.

I think we have a huge edge in mobility with our navy and I intend to use it.

 

[ungy]

Vassalage may not be necessary, but Police state is what we need now, I'm convinced of it. It may slow us down a little researching chemistry, but we really won't need that until Roosevelt.

Well as for not needing chemistry not sure I agree with that--a huge difference in losses between mace and gren. Is important that we don't decimate our army vs. HC so we can keep going quickly.

As for Police state, I agree with you. We are currently running 6 specs, and the cost is 4g more. We can handle the unhappy and soon we will have fur. Nearly all our production will be units so getting the 25% bonus is worth it I think.

 

[llib_rm]

I think we have a huge edge in mobility with our navy and I intend to use it.

Rule The Sea

We should give consideration on how, if at all, Ghandi can be best used. We will need his land for staging & sustaining an assault on Teddy. Getting him to declare against an opponent (except Cyrus) may be to our advantage.

 

[Grogs]

The info screen shows us with 8 mace and 11 weaker melee units. As we are against longbow, the mace are more or less even money (assuming no hill), and we're in trouble vs. a hill. So we need upgrades to get the numbers we need, which will slow grenadiers considerably. I think the weaker units are pretty much useless w/o upgrade. We also need to defeat his counterattack force--we will have no bonus in a new city so even a few knights are serious trouble.
Don't worry, I think we make progress on my watch but I just don't want people to think we roll over the AI with what we have.

HC hasn't had Feudalism too long, so I doubt he'll have that many LB's yet. I wouldn't waste galleon space on swords and axes if there are better units available, but they can certainly do a good bit, especially after a couple of cats go in to weaken the defenders. Speaking of cats, we need more, quite a few more. After we've researched the techs we think we *really* need, then we should upgrade.

Rule The Sea

Exactly. We probably need to overbuild on galleons, since this is a rather screwy time where galleons are our best offensive, defensive, and transport unit (and naval combat is usually 50/50 anyway.) We'd much rather have a couple of empty ones scouting ahead of our invasion forces, since losing an empty galleon is much less painful than losing one with 3 knights onboard.

 

[ungy]

Cat attack strategy: what do people think vs. longbows? I've had some bad experiences and soured to it but maybe I was unlucky. Seems like it should still be worth it if 3 or more defenders.

 

[ungy]

On the upgrades my gut feeling is unless HC is pretty weak I'm thinking skip the upgrades and hurry to chemistry. If I think I can get him with what we have I will upgrade a bunch.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Cat attack strategy: what do people think vs. longbows? I've had some bad experiences and soured to it but maybe I was unlucky. Seems like it should still be worth it if 3 or more defenders.

I've had the same luck. Just bring down the walls on the lightly defended cities. I usually end up just doinig collateral damage to a spear or archer I don't care about and still have to sacrifice a mace to take the longbow. If there is only one good defender, I often have better luck leading the attack with a knight. As long as H.C. doesn't have pikes, the longbows will defend before spears against a knight and the knight has a reasonable chance to win or at least badly damage the primary defender. If there are 3 good defenders, then cats; 2 good defenders I think is a toss up, maces, knights, or cats, someone is going to die.

I've rolled over civs without horses with CR2 cats and cover units but they become fodder as soon as longbows appear. They are great against archers, axes, spears, and chariots but their window is over.