SGOTM 01 - Smurkz

[Methos]

Okay, I understand now. Look at the score graph and than the culture graph and you'll see how Xteam is doing it. They used their settler to explore, or atleast haven't settled yet. I'm still curious how you can have a score of 40 without having a city founded. Must have popped a hut or something. Interesting.

 

[dojoboy]

one remark coming from strat about the warriors: I would take the 1 warrior out of your sequence. Why? I only use them for scouting but not for MP early on. The animals and barbs do not cross your borders. The same do the other AI's as long as you have peace and no open borders. So MP is no issue. Because of that I do not build a warrior before the second settler, cause the warrior I have from the start goes a little exploring.

What then allows barbs to cross borders? Is it the moment "open borders" are agreed upon with another civ?

 

[Methos]

What then allows barbs to cross borders? Is it the moment "open borders" are agreed upon with another civ?

Barbs can cross borders whenever they want. Animals cannot cross borders. Since typically all you get is animals in the earliest part of the game its okay to leave the city undefended. But just make sure we have some defense there when the barb warriors show up.

I'm not sure when the barbs appear.

 

[McLMan]

What is everyone's preference on the warrior? Any preferred direction to explore?

I think the warrior should explore counter clockwise around the city site to see the lay of the land. Make a half circle then head West.

What's everyone's opinions on our builds and tech research? Several great options have been brought up lately.

I think we should start with another warrior for more exploration, then start a rax until the city grows to size 2 and switch to worker. Start the 1st settler a few turns before BW is researched & help it out with a chop at the end.
For research I think Animal Husbandry -> Pottery (maybe) -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Pottery (maybe)

 

[zyxy]

I have calculated several scneario's to about turn 70. Scenario's starting with worker, scenario's starting with warrior+growth, scenario's witha focus on early settler, focus on early growth, etc. In each case, settling on green circle, research AH, no other research assumed. General picture:

- By turn (approx) 70 every scenario has two settlers, one worker and a varying number of warriors (between2 and 6). Scenarios that focus strongly on early settler, like "warrior-worker-settler-..." and "worker-settler-warrior-..." have grown the capital to size 4 and generated some 730 gold in 70 turns. Other scenarios like "worker-warrior-settler" or "warrior-worker-warrior-settler" have grown to size 5 and generated around 800 gold.
- The second settler appears around turn 65 in each scenario. The first as early as turn 39 ("worker-settler") or as late as turn 54 ("warrior-worker-warrior-settler"). Scenarios "warrior-worker-settler" and "worker-warrior-settler" are the compromise scenarios and both get the first settler at turn 45.
- As a general rule, a "delayed worker" (i.e., start with one or two warriors) or "early settler" scenario delays growth and hence production later on. But of course the early warriors or settler also have advantages.
- The main advantage of an early warrior would be hut popping IMO. Although huts are pretty benign, I'm not sure if this is worth it. Early contacts are not that necessary, there's nothing to trade anyway.

My conclusion is that it is best to start with a worker - the early warrior is not worth it. Both the worker and AH come in in turn 18, perhaps Methos can pause at this point and we can decide where to go from there. Based on the info we have now I would favor warrior - settler after that, this seems to have the best midrange advantage as the warrior would allow us to grow the capital to size 2. It will delay the settler by 6 turns.

Btw, irrigated fp's are not just useful for growth, but also for settler production. And we can always change some to cottages later.

I agree that scouting the immediate surroundings of our HQ is best.

EDIT:

Unless we're still unsure of how to proceed, I'll probably play either Saturday night or sometime Sunday.

How do you want to proceed?

 

[Methos]

Great work zyxy!

Early contacts are not that necessary, there's nothing to trade anyway.

In case you didn’t know, knowing AI’s does affect the cost of techs being researched. For every AI we know who already knows that tech we gain a bonus in our beakers researched. The cost of the tech is the same, we just gain a bonus.

How do you want to proceed?

My preference has always been worker first, and head straight for Pottery. IMO getting Pottery first and getting those cottages built will speed our research up a lot, especially if we get them early. Pottery should finish prior to the Worker, and than we can start AH. Once the worker is finished he immediately begins putting up cottages to get them to start growing. We should be able to get at least one cottage up, possibly two, before we can improved the cow.

After both Pottery and AH I’d probably agree with heading for BW.

IMO getting the cow improved first isn’t worth it. It grants food equal to a fp as well as three hammers. This early in the game IMO production isn’t nearly as important as research is. Getting our commerce up quickly first is more beneficial than getting production up.

 

[Methos]

Deciding to test my suggestion, using this map:

View attachment 126584

Please note, the below is not my turn set, but notes from my test game.

Turn 2, 3970 BC: Settled on the plains hill. Started a worker (due in 18) and began research on Pottery (due in 14).

3850 BC: Borders expand.

3550 BC: Pottery learned, and research begun on AH (due in 17).

3430 BC: Worker is complete, a Warrior is started. The worker moves to a fp and starts on a cottage (due in 8). AH is due in 13.

3220 BC: Cottage is finished. AH due in 6.

3190 BC: Worker moves to another fp and begins a cottage.

3100 BC: Warrior complete, start on another warrior. AH due in 2 and cottage due in 5. Residing cottage will become a hamlet in 11.

3040 BC: AH learned, start on Mining (due in 8).

2980 BC: Second cottage complete.

2950 BC: Worker moves to cow.

2920 BC: Worker begins a pasture (due in 6). Thebes will grow to size 3 in 4.

2830 BC: Warrior complete, start on a barracks.

2800 BC: Mining learned, start on BW (due in 15).

2770 BC: First cottage grows into a hamlet, and the pasture is complete.

2740 BC: Worker begins work on a road to connect the cow.

2530 BC: Second cottage becomes a hamlet. Cow is now connected and worker moves to the grass forest with fresh water. BW due in 5.

2500 BC: Switch production to a settler, complete in 14. Start road on forested grass (due in 3). BW due in 4. I should have invested a few turns into a fp cottage instead, but wasn’t thinking.

2380 BC: BW learned, start on Writing (due in 11). Worker begins chopping.

2260 BC: Chop complete, settler due in 3.

2170 BC: Settler complete.

2050 BC: Writing learned.

Here’s Thebes at 2050 BC:

View attachment 126583

Not to for sure about all the warriors I built, so that could easily be changed. Changing to a worker would have adjusted things too as well. I’ve also attached my map if you all would like to mess with it.

Edit: It won't upload, so I need to create a 4000 BC save real quick. Okay, added a 4000 BC save. Only problem is it plays like an actual game unfortunately. Meaning you'll win a conquest victory shortly. My test game had all victory conditions turned off and me as the only civ. Hopefully you modders can adjust the 4000 BC save I've provided. My apologies.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Great work, Methos

For comparison: Here is my favorite at 2050BC.



You have beaten me by 10 turns to Writing!
However, I have my 2. city already at size 3 (with a smaller capital) But the value of this we cannot really judge before we know the surroundings.

Since we agree on the worker first, I think you should start with that worker and go lifting the fog with the warrior and come back for discussion after that with a screeny.

Have you done an analysis, what would be the outcome in your approach with the cottages, if you start with AH and go to pottery second?

 

[zyxy]

In case you didn’t know, knowing AI’s does affect the cost of techs being researched. For every AI we know who already knows that tech we gain a bonus in our beakers researched. The cost of the tech is the same, we just gain a bonus.

Thanks for the info! So: we cannot trade techs, we cannot see what techs the AI has, but still our research cost for these techs decreases .

--- -------- --------- ----

Now we still need to decide what to research first. There seem to be two approaches: pottery first, for increasing the gold supply, or AH first, for the cow and a strategy focussed on growth/production. The first will maintain fast research but postpone settlers, the second builds quick settlers.

If we first research AH, and use the worker to first irrigate an FP and then improve the cow, then this gives enough time to research Pottery. If we first research Pottery, and use the worker to build two cottages, then this gives enough time to research AH (I think).
So: does it matter much?

I should also mention that my calculations are off. FP's are apparently more difficult to irrigate than grassland, contrary to what I thought, and so my computations on worker turns are wrong. The effect is not enormous I think, but it means the turn numbers may be slightly off.

 

[Niklas]

FWIW with my limited knowledge and experience, I'm inclined towards Methos' alternative with Pottery first. I've always been a fan of (and good at) Civ3 research games, and the quick commerce increase from cottages is alluring. It's not only the fact that they are built that much earlier, but also that they grow to give even more commerce that much earlier.
I'm assuming that the forests in range will help us with health issues until we can get the cows hooked up. Also what Methos says makes sense, about research being more important than production in the early game, since we cannot trade for techs until Alphabet.

Consider this my (inexperienced) vote for Pottery first.

 

[Methos]

If we first research AH, and use the worker to first irrigate an FP and then improve the cow, then this gives enough time to research Pottery. If we first research Pottery, and use the worker to build two cottages, then this gives enough time to research AH (I think).
So: does it matter much?

Cottages grow as they are worked from cottage/hamlet/village/town. I believe I'm missing one. Anyway, each state takes a certain amount of turns until it grows. When it grows it than earns an additional commerce each turn. Getting cottages up early causing the city to be able to research faster earlier.

Comparing my test game with MA's he has two cities at size 3 and I have two (one at size 4 and a settler). I also am ahead of him on Writing by ten turns. In a few more turns my two hamlets will expand to the next level thereby increasing my commerce by two more (without having to grow any population points), thereby also increasing research.

Having a second city also helps though, and I agree we need one out quick. In my test game I should have switched to a settler earlier, maybe just after size 3.

So what is our research path. I can't continue on without knowing everyone's vote. Zyxy is nuetral, Niklas is Pottery, MA is AH, and I'm unsure on either dojoboy or McLMan.

Unless anyone objects, I'll follow MA's suggestion of exploring counter-clockwise with the warrior. Worker first appears as agreed upon, so research is the only question.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Hm, that is not such a big issue, Methos IMHO. You are in charge of starting us out. I only wanted to give you something to think about. Nothing more. You have argued your case and you are aware of my input. So if you feel to go with pottery, That's ok with me. And the captain has supported you.
What hurts me more is loosing the free weekend I had without being able to discuss the more important decisions between 2000BC and 500BC. The next week and the weekend ahead I am very busy in my profession and my participation in the discussion will diminish to a very limited time. So from my point, please just start out with pottery and show us the surroundings.

 

[McLMan]

For research I think Animal Husbandry -> Pottery (maybe) -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Pottery (maybe)

Since I originally said this, I'm leaning more torward Pottery in the 2nd spot. Knowing where the copper is could help with expansion decisions, or lack of copper could influence research decisions.

 

[dojoboy]

So what is our research path. I can't continue on without knowing everyone's vote. Zyxy is nuetral, Niklas is Pottery, MA is AH, and I'm unsure on either dojoboy or McLMan.

Methos, I favor Pottery followed by Animal Husbandry. I'll check back later today. It's Mother's Day, and I've got a day full of activity for a beautiful woman and our 2 sons.

 

[Methos]

You have argued your case and you are aware of my input.

After rereading my posts I realize I am pushing my opinion way too hard. I apologize to everyone for that.

What hurts me more is loosing the free weekend I had without being able to discuss the more important decisions between 2000BC and 500BC.

Again my apologies. Since this is a SGOTM I hate to push ahead without having everything nailed down. Plus Team Smurkz has always discussed at length. I'll play my 20 now.

 

[Methos]

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Move the Settler SW on the plains hill.

Turn 1, 3970 BC: Thebez founded, begins work on a Worker (due in 14). Research on Pottery begun (due in 18). Here’s our immediate surroundings:

View attachment 126690

Turn 4, 3880 BC:
IBT: Cultural borders expand.

Turn 5, 3850 BC: It appears we have located the northern tip of our landmass.

Turn 7, 3790 BC:
IBT: Lions appear near the eastern coast.

Turn 13, 3610 BC: Our warrior moves within sight of some lions in the far west.
IBT: The lions move adjacent to our Warrior.

Turn 14, 3580 BC: I move the warrior across the river onto the hill, but still adjacent to the lion. This will give us +25% defense from the hill, and +25% defense from having to attack us across a river. With any luck we survive.
IBT: We survive the lion attack with 1.4 health remaining!
Pottery>Animal Husbandry (due in 17)

Turn 15, 3550 BC: The Warrior is resting for now.

Turn 18, 3460 BC: Our Warrior is fully healed so continues exploring.
IBT: Thebez- Worker>Warrior

Turn 19, 3430 BC: Our worker moves to one of the floodplains and starts on a cottage (due in 8).
IBT: One of Catherine’s scouts appears from the southwest.

Notes:

• The Warrior will be finished in ten turns.
• The cottage will be complete in 7.
• Animal Husbandry (68/223) will be finished in 12 turns.
• There are lions east of Thebez.
• Catherine’s scout is in the southwest.

Within Thebez’s radius is a Cow, Rice, and Stone.

Here’s a global view of our surrounding lands:

View attachment 126691

Roster:
Methos- Just Played
zyxy- Up
dojoboy- On Deck
McLMan
Marc Aurel
Niklas

Here’s the 3400 BC save.

 

[dojoboy]

Great start Methos. I'll browse the save.

Edit: Okay, I just made a quick peek at the save. A couple things:

(1) What do you guys think about laying down our second city near the isthmus to creat a "by-land" choke point? The settler should use an escort for that distance.

(2) Research after AH. Did we ever settle on a VC? Regardless, should we grab a terrain improvement tech next? Perhaps Hunting or Mining. Also, I like to grab Metal Casting when possible for the production boost provided by forges.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Ya, great start Methos!
I absolutely concur that waiting, analysing and discussuing and finding a team solution is best. I know what I'm talking about, I suffered heavily from team Bede in SGOTM9 running along the game as fast as the wind. I only wanted to point out, that sometimes (after discussion) you have to move on with just a majority of the team to keep the momentum of the game process but I am very content with the result. And I always appreciate someone having a totally different idea, I wasn't able to think of. In this case it seems you have been terribly right with your yield for early cottages, since there are no gold, silver or gem ressources around. Strange, that we have the lot of 5 cows around Thebez.
But the important thing I want to remark in the situation is the topography. It seems that we have a good chance to block the Russians off at the isthmus in the SW. So we would not need to care for the Northern lands, if we do not have a brilliant idea on how to use them early on. I would scout to the SW to find the best blocking line. However not much is won by that, since we seem to lack many ressources on our very small half island landmass. OTOH we first need to be sure that SE of Thebez is no land bridge.
After that I would like to first use the settler blocking the other AI's in the SW. I see at least one position for another city in the North. We should make this a coastal one and get the fish, since we have so few food ressources in reach.

EDIT: Blocking is somewhat questionable cause of the mountain ridge in the east (Is that correct?) That is blocked for land units but galleys can move around. We would need two towns to block that - that's quite a lot. Hmmm - should we go for early sea exploring with a galley to determine what's lying beyond ourselves?

The stone - with the stone in our direct reach - the question of early wonders arise.
Stonehenge ? After blocking we would have possibly time for such thing.
Contra: we would have no benefit from the obelisks (some more culture, but we do not go for a culture victory)
Pro: we get a Great Prophet. If we found one of the midterm religions we have it's Great building right there giving us a lot of gold, if we send missionaries around

 

[zyxy]

Alright, good opening!

(EDIT: crossposted with MA.)

It seems we picked a good location for the capital, with cow, chow and rocks. Unfortunately with an unirrigated farm on the rice, but still the city has plenty of food to support miners, and cottages on the fp's was the correct decision it seems.

There are at least 3 decent sites for cities it seems: at the cow-and-river in the west, on the coast south of that, and east on the fp's. But I agree with dojoboy that blocking the choke as a priority may be a good idea. It depends a bit on how far away Russia is, I guess - perhaps we will need to block even further. Also we need to make sure that there is a single choke.

Btw, that's a strange mountain range to the east. I wonder if Capac is on the other side of it.

Are we playing ten turns each from here, or still 20? In the first case I have little to plan, so I can play quickly. Research project will take another 11 turns, city grows in 10 and makes warrior in 10, the worker can do another cottage after this one, and the warrior first explores the tiles inmediately east of it, and then passes through the choke.

For slightly longer term, we need to decide what to research next. Mining?
The second warrior can explore SE a bit - it seems lands end, but better make sure. Should Thebez start a settler after the warrior? Or do we want to grow to size 3 first?

After rereading my posts I realize I am pushing my opinion way too hard. I apologize to everyone for that.

Please don't. It did not come across as "pushing" to me, and conflicting opinions can only help. Cottages are probably the most powerful improvement on flatlands, and research speed seems to be the bottleneck of this game.

 

[Methos]

Unfortunately with an unirrigated farm on the rice,

I’ve never quit understood the difference between being connected through irrigation, and self-irrigated. What difference is it game-wise? Is it affected differently later in the game by something?

Are we playing ten turns each from here, or still 20?

We’re each playing 20 turns the first round, and than ten turns each after that.

Did we ever settle on a VC?

I believe the consensus was a Diplomatic victory.

Research after AH.

I believe Mining, Bronze Working, and Writing are next in line. Granted, this is subject to change as we learn more of our surroundings.

Hmmm - should we go for early sea exploring with a galley to determine what's lying beyond ourselves?

More than likely our next city will be coastal, so I agree Sailing should probably be moved into the lineup. I suggest we wait on it though until its benefits are needed. Plus by waiting the turns required to research the tech will be less as others will know it. We may need it prior to having Alphabet.

Btw, that's a strange mountain range to the east. I wonder if Capac is on the other side of it.

I think you’re right. Remember that G/COTM where the ‘Great Wall’ was put up? Every mountain had a pre-stationed spearmen or something. I believe we played as the Mongols in that game. HC is probably just on the other side.

I like your all’s choke point idea. If we can close Cathy off we can grab a fair chunk of land for ourselves.