SGOTM 01 - Team One

[blastoidstalker]

Good turns everybody.
for future research I am thinking we need BW and fishing next. BW to see where copper is and slavery, sailing
We talked about alphabet before, but if we knock off Cat then there will be nobody left to trade with at the moment. So I do not like going for alphabet until we have some real use of it.

We have stone, do we want to pursue one of the stone wonders if we can knock off Cat quick (pyramids or GL). This would require masonary

 

[Strobe]

Good job conroe.

Harok has an interesting point about alphabet. I never seem to have any luck getting tech from the AI, what do people think the odds of getting something from Cathy are ? If they are low then fishing & sailing would be better researched to get a galley on the move as soon as we finish war.

I like the pink dot for the third city also, our first two cities will be production so GP farm for the third ?

Knew Cathy would put the city there if only to annoy me ! It's on a hill meaning we need more chariots to break her, plus it would not be the position I would like for a city when we take it.

We won't be able to get the pyramids and take out Cathy. With two cities, one on a hill, we will need at least 8 chariots.

 

[Mutineer]

We migth demand a tech from Cathy just befior we attack.
If we have bigger military, AI will give up to demand.
Alphavit is a good tech to have even if we are not trade with anyone. It is open Dramma ( we usefull for as because of cheat theaters) and Dramma open Philosify (With Mathematic).

 

[amh52]

Good job so far.

I also vote to take out Cathy. It would be good if we could get one Civ out early. Plus she has some good land and will be harder to take out later.

I would go BW next for slavery and to see copper. Not sure afterwards but I would skip Alphabet unless we meet someone else. Fishing, Masonry? Do we want to try and go for a religion?

It would be nice to build a second worker before barrack as we have lots to do. What do you think?

 

[Doc TK]

I think strobe and amh is right about getting others Fishing, Sailing to find other AIs before we go for Alpha. But once we are going to find other folks, lets definitely jump on Alpha.

 

[Conroe]

Knew Cathy would put the city there if only to annoy me ! It's on a hill meaning we need more chariots to break her, plus it would not be the position I would like for a city when we take it.

Oh, I agree. Of all the places she could pick to put a city down, that hill is the last one that I would have picked. I really don't think she knew about the horses, otherwise she would have put that city 1 tile to the left.

... and take out Cathy. With two cities, one on a hill, we will need at least 8 chariots.

I was thinking closer to 10, maybe a dozen, chariots. Since Cathy is creative, those cultural defenses will grow quickly. Combined with those fortified Archers, that get a city bonus plus a hills bonus, those cities may be tough to take down. I would rather take enough troops so that we don't risk promoting those Archers.

for future research I am thinking we need BW and fishing next. BW to see where copper is and slavery, sailing

I could agree with Bronze Working and Fishing. I really don't think we need Sailing, at the moment, though. Fishing will give us a Work Boat, which has the same movement as a Galley. I feel that we can use a couple of Work Boats to sail around our island ...

With an early war and this research path, I assume that we are pretty much shelving any plans of an Oracle run?

 

[Strobe]

I was thinking closer to 10, maybe a dozen, chariots. Since Cathy is creative, those cultural defenses will grow quickly. Combined with those fortified Archers, that get a city bonus plus a hills bonus, those cities may be tough to take down. I would rather take enough troops so that we don't risk promoting those Archers.

Im normally fairly cautious so would go with 12 .

I could agree with Bronze Working and Fishing. I really don't think we need Sailing, at the moment, though. Fishing will give us a Work Boat, which has the same movement as a Galley. I feel that we can use a couple of Work Boats to sail around our island ...

I would rather have alpha if I could extort some tech but it never works for me, so I would go Fishing.
Maybe mutineer could give us some more info on how likely it is we can get some tech out of cathy ?

 

[Harok]

I've got it and will attempt to play tonight.

I was actually thinking of switching research off of Writing to BW (I wasn't sure what the rules for switching research and build orders are as I am a SG noob). Now that we have open borders with Catherine we don't really need it right away because if we are gearing up for war we won't have time to build a library as we will need to get a barracks and some chariots out there. Creative + both cities on hills is bad but if she has spears from bronze it will be down right ugly, especially if we can't even see where the bronze is to pillage it.

I would love to have at least one more worker but can't decide if it will be worth it before starting a barracks. I will have to check how long the build time is.

 

[Strobe]

I would finish writing for now. We have to build another city, barracks and 12 chariots so we have time to research other techs still.

Explore below Cathy to see what is there which may change our plan, i.e. If she extends south then maybe sue for peace after taking her capitol etc...

I would like to hear from Mutineer on how likely it is we can get some tech from Cathy before making a final decision.

If we don't think we can get tech from her then I'm okay with BW or Fishing.

 

[Harok]

If the AI only knows us they will not trade at all and you can't even demand techs because they will all be red on the trade screen. The only way to get a tech from her would be as a peace treaty.

 

[Conroe]

I was actually thinking of switching research off of Writing to BW

Personally, I think this is a pretty good idea, for the reasons that you have stated. We don't want to ignore Writing too long, since the invested beakers will begin to decay after awhile. Plus there is that Library thing ...

I would like to hear from Mutineer on how likely it is we can get some tech from Cathy before making a final decision.

I agree with Harok. I can't see Cathy trading techs with us, let alone allowing us to demand a tech. Now, once we meet another civ, she might ...

 

[Mutineer]

WE do not need Bronse working RIGTH NOW.
Researching it rigth now is not nessesary. WE can delayng it's research in order to move ahead of research tree.
There are 3 options open for as, as we dismiss early religion path.

Alphavit-Dramma-Philosofy (GS)
Mathematica-Currency-Col- Philosofy(GS)
Bronse working-mettalocasting-Mashinery-

From this 3 I prefure first one.
Cheap theaters will give as unlimited happiness.
Philosofy will give as Taoism and Pacifism as a civic.

AI does trade even if they do not meat any one.

 

[blastoidstalker]

Unlike Mutineer I think BW is essential right now for several reasons
1) Reveals copper which is a great production bonus and can effect city placement
2) If we can hook it up it gives us a second useful unit (axeman) that can be used with the chariots to speed up the war process.
3) Slavery will be very useful in this game as it is looking now, with lots of food resources and few luxuries will we take out Cat we can use it now.

Sorry about suggesting sailing I got sailing and fishing mixed up, we need fishing but after that we need to see.

I do think once we get past these developmental techs that Mutineers ideas on going the alphabet path to music philosophy etc are interesting. I am not sold on it, as it seems better to me for a builder and not a domination strategy. But we may not have another target for a while after Cat and it may be a way to jump ahead in tech and infrastructure




On the discussion of how many war chariots we need
Though we may eventual need around 10 chariots to take out CAT we do not need them all at once.
I played one emperor game with Hattie and started two wars in the war chariot era (with the Inca and the Americans) what I found was

1) To take a city and be assured you will do it you want to have twice as many chariots as archers/axemen in city. Usually you will lose 1 chariot for every two defenders
2) They are vulnerable to counter attack if your opponent has axes but not archers
3) the most effective promotions are flanking 1-2 (especially if the opponent does not have copper). Flanking one itself is not that impressive, but flanking 2 gives both a 20% increased chance to retreat and immunity to first strikes. The immunity to first strike is important as it makes them more effective against archers. They usually have some where between a 20-35% success rate and about a 65% survival rate (with retreat). The problem is the first time you use them to attack as (if you built barracks) they have only 1 promotion. You have to use them once, hope they survive (even by retreating) then you promote them to flanking two and they become very valuable.
Looking at our current situation I think Cats outer city should be relatively easy to take (even with the hill) we just need to get it before it jumps to 40%. The capital will take some work and we will lose some troops, hopefully by this time we have 1-2 axemen to help out.

All in all I think we should start our attack when we have about 4 chariots ready and more in the making. We take out the first city ASAP, stop any counterattack then march in and overwhelm Moscow or any other cities she foolishly starts.

 

[Mutineer]

No one argues that Bronse working is very usefull tech.
But Rigth now we do not need axes, as chariots will cheaper, have the same base STR and get to Cathy mach faster. But right now we will not use slavery to produce chariot army, we will not use higth food ties because Good Food Good shield Cow/hources ties and mines will be base of our production.
No one will claim cooper ahead of as, as we do not have any other competitors exept Cathy. So, in short term we do not have any use for Bronse working what so ever.

 

[blastoidstalker]

No one argues that Bronse working is very usefull tech.
But Rigth now we do not need axes, as chariots will cheaper, have the same base STR and get to Cathy mach faster. But right now we will not use slavery to produce chariot army, we will not use higth food ties because Good Food Good shield Cow/hources ties and mines will be base of our production.
No one will claim cooper ahead of as, as we do not have any other competitors exept Cathy. So, in short term we do not have any use for Bronse working what so ever.

My reasons for
Slavery- allows us to convert extra food into production which is very usefull right now. slavery will probably be for quick libraries or other building when # of people gets to high (2 pop) .

If you do have copper it makes a several hammer difference in production. this will add up over time. revealing the resource is my biggest reason.

Chopping in the non floodplain cities is a valid option to quicken expansion (city 2 to produce settler for city 3 or worker) it allows us to let cities grow while producing these types of units

axemen will also be used for barb protection (though I think this will not be a big issue with the apperent size of our landmass.

Cat often goes for BW early (We will know if she adopts slavery).

 

[Conroe]

WE do not need Bronse working RIGTH NOW.
Researching it rigth now is not nessesary.
...
Cheap theaters will give as unlimited happiness.
Philosofy will give as Taoism and Pacifism as a civic.

I think Theatres are going to be an important way for us to leverage our traits. They will certainly be needed to combat war weariness in the future. However, I just don't see that we need Theatres right NOW.

As for religion, I would rather found Confucianism (CoL) rather than Taoism. Code of Laws gives us access to Courthouses, which we will eventually need. True, Philosophy opens up the Pacifism civic. However, I'm not convinced of the usefulness of Pacifism as a war-time civic, given its double unit upkeep costs.

1) To take a city and be assured you will do it you want to have twice as many chariots as archers/axemen in city. Usually you will lose 1 chariot for every two defenders

Normally 2-to-1 is a good ratio; but in this situation, I think we should be planning on a 3-to-1 ratio. Keep in mind that both of Catherine's cities are built on hills. Plus she is creative, so that cultural defense will pop up quickly. A healthy, strength 3 Archer, fortified, in a city, on a hill, with a 20% cultural defense bonus, will have an effective strength of 7.35 after a 145% defense bonus. It's effective strength will be 7.95 with a City Garrison I promotion. Our War Chariot UU has a base strength of 5, or 5.5 with a Combat I promotion.

Make no mistake: This is going to be a tough war!

3) the most effective promotions are flanking 1-2 (especially if the opponent does not have copper). Flanking one itself is not that impressive, but flanking 2 gives both a 20% increased chance to retreat and immunity to first strikes. The immunity to first strike is important as it makes them more effective against archers.

The Egyptian War Chariot is already immune to first strikes. It has a 20% chance of withdrawl without any promotions. With Flanking II, that goes up to a 50% chance of withdrawl. If it does withdraw, it is going to have something like 0.2 health remaining ...

I think I would lean towards a Combat I promotion, with maybe Cover if it survives. City Raider promotions would be good if we had some Axe or Swordsmen.

But Rigth now we do not need axes, as chariots will cheaper, have the same base STR and get to Cathy mach faster.

War Chariots are my first choice, but I'm not sure that we can rule out Axemen. With only one promotion, a base 5 Axeman with City Raider I has an effective strength of 6, versus 5.5 for a War Chariot with Combat I. Plus, if Cathy has built any Spearman, then our Chariots will pretty much be useless.

 

[Harok]

Situation Assessment: After a lot of thought I decide to switch from Writing to Bronze Working. If we were not preparing for war or if Catherine hadn't just finished it and given us Open Borders I would have finished Writing. The only thing we are getting out of Writing at the moment is the ability to build libraries which we don't plan to do right now while Bronze allows us to chop which we might want to do, slavery which could be really helpful, to see where the bronze is.


Objectives: Explore the south and settle green dot.

Turn 0 - 2500BC: Change research to Bronze Working and move warrior in Thebes North to fog bust for Settler who will be done in 2 turns.

Turn 1 - 2470BC: Start the march through Russian lands and worker prepares to connect the 2 rivers which will speed up city/horse connecting.

Turn 2 - 2440BC: Settler is finished start work on Barracks currently due in 18.

Turn 4 - 2380BC: Found Memphis and start construction of a Barracks.

Turn 5 - 2350BC: I am walking through Catherine's land when suddenly....

...an unprotected worker in a spot where I should be able to make a worker steal without getting attacked on that same turn. And also a jungle covered hill one tile away that I can go to in the turn after to give me the edge in a battle with an archer. I gravely apologize if my play style is too aggressive but this opportunity to cripple Catherine looks too good to pass up so I start moving my warrior out of Russian territory.

Turn 7 - 2290BC Our warriors move into attack and defensive positions.

Turn 8 - 2260BC: Thebes grows to size 4, barracks will now complete in 8 turns.

The warrior is in position as the Russian worker mindlessly goes about his road building and I declare war and attack.



Turn 9 - 2230BC: Our warrior celebrates his worker win by moving to the jungle hill and prepares himself for an assault that may come next turn from Moscow.

Turn 10 - 2200BC: No attack comes and our warrior fortifies

Turn 11 - 2170BC: Catherine apparently had no idea where our warrior was even though it was in her land and moved a scout one square away from him.

I attack and win, but just barely with .3 life left. Perhaps she was just sacrificing scout to get me wounded.


Turn 12 - 2140BC: Memphis border expands putting the horse to include the horse in it radius. The worker will also complete the road connecting it to our capital this turn which means he can start the pasture next turn and as soon as it completes we will be able to pump out chariots from the capital which will have completed barracks and be at happiness limit with slavery available to whip one if we want.

Our brave nearly dead warrior doesn't get attacked and moves out onto the jungle hill and promotes to a Woodsman I.

IBT: HC adopts slavery so where ever he is he has now finished BW.

Turn 13 - 2110BC: Worker starts the pasture on the horse and will finish in 6 turns. Barracks will complete in 3 and we can build a warrior in 3 also so if we wanted we could get an extra defender/military happiness police built just in time to start our chariot push.

Turn 14 - 2080BC: zzzzzz

Turn 15 - 2050BC: Memphis grows to size 2. Catherine will now accept peace with us but doing so would trap our warrior and worker.

Final Thoughts: Barracks in Thebes will finish next turn as will Bronze Working. I suggest either fishing or go back and finish Writing next. I would probably do fishing and get at least one workboat out there looking for other people first then complete writing but that is just my opinion. I worked the stone tile to slow the growth of Thebes and to get the Barracks done quicker, we might want to switch that tile once we have an MP and can use the whip. Memphis also will need to switch tile usage around once the pasture is done.

I really had no intention of declaring on Catherine and I didn't get any of the exploration done I wanted to, but really felt the early worker steal/crippling effect was too good to let it go. We need a chariot down there as soon as possible to escort our worker home and get him developing our land as I didn't want to try to walk him home with just a single warrior.

The fact that no one came from the south (assuming Catherine would have signed Open Borders with them also) leads me to believe we are on an island alone with her but this could easily be wrong. It could be Tokugawa down there and he just didn't want Open Borders or it could be anyone and they just didn't make it through her land to where we were yet.

 

[blastoidstalker]

great set of turns Harok.
I will play my set tommorow, I agree with your suggestions and will try to follow them

My main question ios am I doing 15 turns or 10?

plan
tech BW- Fishing - finish writting
Production focused on chariots- first one will go down to escort the worker back and find out how many of the enemy is in St pPetersburg, the warrior will then move to destroy roads and mines near moscow to disrupt production

The assault will probably be in the lap of the player after me

If anybody has anything else to add, do so

 

[Doc TK]

Blastoid, your plan sounds right.

We are going to need to be careful to make sure we don't tank our economy after conquering. Let's make sure we get a couple of good commerce cities up and going and let's definitely head towards CoL as soon as we can. What's the best path from here?

 

[Strobe]

Soon as we have enough chariots I suggest a work boat to circle the island, then a third city at pink dot which the work boat can be used at.

COL then head to optics ?

Settle those gems for 4th city giving us a bit of a boost ?