SGOTM 02 - Memphis Blues

[ShannonCT]

Our science is only better off in the short term - once the city is producing more commerce as its maintenance costs we're better off researchwise. In terms of dealing with the barbs - if we settle and can get two hammers straight off the bat (if I'm not mixing my metaphors), then a warrior will be out in 12 turns (15base cost * 1.5 for epic = 23). So settling on say, turn 7 means we could have two extra warriors by turn 31, useful for exploration, fog busting and defence. They might even have a chance to get a promotion or two on some animals.

Oh, and thanks ShannonCT for the work on the maintenance re distance and population - very useful.

I think it will be quite unlikely that our 2nd city (or 3rd or 4th) will be able to pay for itself until we move the palace. In order to produce more commerce the city will need more population, but population increases result in higher maintenance costs as my table shows. The only way I can see out of this problem is if we are lucky enough to get a gold or gems mine. Working a lot of coastal tiles for commerce sacrafices production, and our 2nd city will only be able to work 4 tiles unless it gets a luxury.

Warriors can be surprisingly useful for barb defense. A warrior who can get the cover promotion (anti-archer) and who fully fortifies on a forested hill is getting a 135% bonus against archers. 2 * 2.35 = 4.7. That's nothing to sneeze at. Regardless of how long we wait to settle, building a barracks and then 2 warriors to put on forested hills is not a bad opening.

I think KingdomBrunel does have a point here. Postponing settling after we have found a good city site closer to Kyoto is to some extent just postponing the pain of the maintenance for a new city with little income. It's a phase we have to go through sooner or later. The main question here should be if we can use the extra food and hammers we get by settling early for any usefull purpose. In most of my testgames warriors were not all that usefull and most of them were eventually killed by barbarian archers or axemen. Barracks on the other hand might be useful and we can build them at reduced cost. Our 2nd city will only be able to pay for itself if we have some gold producing tiles available. Gold or silver bonus ressources are optimal but we may not be able to locate those and in that case coast tiles are probably the best since they produce 2gpt unimproved. One more reason for settling at the coast! And maybe a reason for researching sailing somewhere along the line and building lighthouses (Reduced cost). Building cottages is also an option, but not in the early phases before we have created a defensive perimeter around the city.

Assuming that Kyoto remains isolated until we learn astronomy I would say that an important goal is to build 3 cities on the continent our settler is on and build a Palace in one of them to cut down maintenance. After that we have a "normal" game and Kyoto will be the only city with an unusually high maintenance. In order to get there as fast as possible I would prefer not to delay founding our 2nd city for too long.

Right, postponing after we have found a good site closer to Kyoto only has a temporary benefit. Let's not postpone just for the sake of postponing. Postponing for the sake of trying to get closer to Kyoto has a long-lasting science benefit. Maintenance for a city that is 38 tiles from the capital has maintenance of -7, -9, -10, -10, -11 at Populations of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 respectively. That's two more per turn than a city 32 tiles from the capital, for every turn until we move the capital (which is going to take at least 100 turns).

Instead of building 3 cities on the continent, how about building 2 (or even 1 if we are lucky enough to get a metal on the first try) and then going for the nearest AI capital? The AI usually sends out parties of 1-2 archers and a settler at pretty predictable times and leaves the capital guarded by 2 archers. We could try to intercept one of the settling parties with some anti-archer axemen, level them up to get City Raider I, and then capture the capital. We can have three axemen for the price of a settler and capture a city that cold pop rush more axemen or a palace. And this would basically cripple our nearest rival and surely give us some workers.

I'm running some tests that I will write up later about the first 100 turns with various settling times.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Instead of building 3 cities on the continent, how about building 2 (or even 1 if we are lucky enough to get a metal on the first try) and then going for the nearest AI capital? The AI usually sends out parties of 1-2 archers and a settler at pretty predictable times and leaves the capital guarded by 2 archers. We could try to intercept one of the settling parties with some anti-archer axemen, level them up to get City Raider I, and then capture the capital. We can have three axemen for the price of a settler and capture a city that cold pop rush more axemen or a palace. And this would basically cripple our nearest rival and surely give us some workers.

I'm running some tests that I will write up later about the first 100 turns with various settling times.

Capturing our 3rd or 4th city is definitely something we should consider if the opportunity presents itself. I guess it will depend on the proximity and strength of our nearest neighbour.

Looking forward to your test results!

 

[ShannonCT]

Instead of building 3 cities on the continent, how about building 2 (or even 1 if we are lucky enough to get a metal on the first try) and then going for the nearest AI capital? The AI usually sends out parties of 1 archer and a settler at pretty predictable times and leaves the capital guarded by 1-2 archers. We could try to intercept one of the settling parties with some anti-archer axemen, level them up to get City Raider I, and then capture the capital. We can have three axemen for the price of a settler and capture a city that cold pop rush more axemen or a palace. And this would basically cripple our nearest rival and surely give us some workers.

I'm running some tests that I will write up later about the first 100 turns with various settling times.

I tested out the AI's regular settling times to clarify the ambush option. Most AI's have their first settler leaving their borders around the 40th turn + or - 3 turns. There are occassional stragglers who didn't get good bonus resources. The AI then either prepares another settler which it sends out around the 67th turn + or - 3 turns, or builds an improvement and sends out a settler around the 82nd turn + or -, probably depending on the land competition it perceives. So if we settled close to an AI, I would expect a quick second settler.

The other question I asked myself was, How long can my warrior and settler explore before being eaten? I restricted myself to keeping the settler and warrior joined after the 6th turn, running away from anything dangerous, and sticking to safe terrain where possible but going out in the open when necessary. The number of turns before I was eaten (B means barbs showed up before I was eaten): 27,38,39,B,B,B,31,B,B,B.

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, Here are a few 100 turn scenarios:

Scenario 1: Tokugawa's brother, let's call him Elvis, decides to explore west. After one turn, it looks like the continent is at its end and he decides to found Osaka on the spot on turn 2. It's not a great spot but it has a flood plain, a few grass forests and three coastal squares. He's 38 tiles from Kyoto and the maintenance will be -7, -9, -9, -10, for the first four population. He decides to start with a barracks and a couple warriors until archery comes in. The warrior escort goes exploring the countryside. Osaka works the flood plains and grows to size 3 quickly, and then works the forests. Osaka isn't generating much money. With a population of four, it can work a couple of coast squares and help a little. Hunting comes in after 13 turns, archery 32, mining 43, bronze working 62, pottery 78, and writing 96. Kyoto has a library and 2 scientists by turn 98. Osaka has managed to produce 2 warriors and 4 archers, which were all needed to defend (1 warrior was killed), since it wasn't getting any fog-busting help from a rival. Because of a lack of bonus resources, no worker or settler was produced.

Scenario 2: Elvis, with the help of his trusty warrior has found a more promising site to the NNE on a plains hill by a river. There are fish on the coast and some sheep and hills within the borders. Elvis exclaims, "Cool, I know how to fish!" and he settles on turn 2 at a distance of 39. Maintenance will be -7, -9, -10, -11 for the first four population. The warrior goes exploring and Osaka starts working the lone forest tile and building a work boat to get Osaka growing fast. Osaka's population grows to size 4 quickly after the fishnet is laid and it starts building defenses with as many as 6 hammers per turn before any improvements. After a warrior, a barracks, and 2 archers, Osaka thinks it can risk building a worker to build some mines. The barbs aren't quite as fierce as they were last time, and the worker is soon safely building two mines and later a cottage on the river. Hunting came in at turn 12, archery 26, mining 39, bronze working 58, pottery 76, and writing 94. Science was slightly better with this site generating a bit more gold. Osaka ends up producing 1 warrior, 5 archers, 1 worker, 1 settler, 1 work boat, a barracks, and improves the terrain with a fishing net, 2 mines, and a cottage. The settler could have settled by turn 85 but there was no bronze to be found. Bronze could have been online by turn 100. I might have detoured to iron working after seeing no bronze but I wanted to see when pottery and writing came in for comparisson.

Scenario 3: Elvis starts heading west and finds open country. He says, "see you later warrior. I'm outta here." After 7 turns, Elvis stops to rest on a forested hill and spies some fish on the coast, while his warrior has met Ghandi at a site south of Elvis. Elvis founds Osaka by the fish but on a useless grass tile in order to save the forested hill and to be next to a river and a flood plain. The Osakans will eat well. Osaka is only 28 tiles from the capital with maintenances of -5, -6, -7, -8. Elvis decides to get a barracks and a couple defenders up before building a fishing boat. A warrior and an archer are enough for now. With the ocean to the north and Ghandi to the south, there are only two approaches to Osaka. By the time the barbs start raging, Osaka will be able to whip archers. Hunting comes in at turn 9, archery 21, mining 32, BW 49, Pottery 65, Writing 81, and Sailing 98 (explained later). Bronze appears back east near the coast. Ghandi is settling like mad and puts Bombay east of Osaka but still west of the bronze. The barb threat is all but gone so Osaka whips a settler and skirts around Bombay to found Tokyo. Osaka whips a worker and heads straight for the bronze and begins a mine. Building a road around Bombay is too risky, so Elvis decides to learn how to ship the bronze along the coast. By turn 100, we have an axeman with two more a couple turns away. It looks like we've managed to snag the only metal in the area. Ghandi is screwed.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The is alive

An example from one of my own test games...

Scenario 4: The kings half brother, let's call him Bob Dylan, takes the advice of the Village People and decides to Go West. After a handful of turns he reaches the coast and decides to found Mobile. Unfortunately there is only one source of hammers - a grassland forrest - in the vicinity of the city. So allthough research is progressing fine building the first archer takes forever and he comes just in time to deny the first barb warrior access to the city. Barracks and more archers are slowly built and BW is researched - no copper is in sight . IW is put on the agenda by uncle Bob and after it is researched iron is discovered not far from Mobile. A worker is paving a way towards the valuable metal and a settler is nearly finished when a barb axeman appears to the north . So the settler has to stay at home with Mr. Zimmerman singing Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again.

I don't remember the exact turn numbers, but this scenario as well as the other three shows that we should be somewhat picky about where we found our second city. Finding the optimal site can really tip the scales in our favor. Of course we would like to go as far west as possible. And since we already know fishing and since mining comes early in our tech path sea ressources and hills are probably a "must have" as clearly demonstrated in scenarios 2 & 3. Gold, rivers and floodplains would be nice to have on top of that but probably we won't be able to get all of it.

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks very much for these scenarios ShannonCT and Frederiksberg.

I don't remember the exact turn numbers, but this scenario as well as the other three shows that we should be somewhat picky about where we found our second city. Finding the optimal site can really tip the scales in our favor. Of course we would like to go as far west as possible. And since we already know fishing and since mining comes early in our tech path sea ressources and hills are probably a "must have" as clearly demonstrated in scenarios 2 & 3. Gold, rivers and floodplains would be nice to have on top of that but probably we won't be able to get all of it.

Absolutely right. the resources near the settled cities seemed make a considerable difference.

 

[Mad Professor]

I've downloaded the start file. I'll play those first few turns sometime in the next 12 hours, and report.

 

[Mad Professor]

I've played two turns. This game has started with a real eye opener. I've never seen a map like this before. Then I've probably never played one that Gyathaar specifically designed to surprise either... I need some input here.

I opened the file, it's 4000BC, the start looks just like the advertised starting position, that's no surprise, but it's the end of the non-surprising stuff.

I set research to hunting, it says it will take 8 turns. We have 11 commerce, 100% research, and hunting needs 88 beakers. 8 turns.

I move the warrior 1E to get a view eastwards from that hill. Wow!! There's sheep and gems next to the rice, and grassland and fresh water! I move the settler 1SW then 1W (getting around that forest to the west) to have a look west with the settler as agreed. End of turn.

Turn 2: 3970BC:
Move settler 1S then 1SW - going around forest again, and getting us a view from a hill. Looks like we're at the western end of a continent fellas.... That's not surprising - someone commented that's just what Gyathaar might do.

Move warrior 1 SE to get a view from the next hill. Awesome!! Another gems, and some gold!! There's one spot we can settle which will give us 2 gems, gold, and rice within the fat cross as well as some grassland and good fresh water. There's even three forests around it at different points of the compass to help with defense! Incredible! It could only happen on a hand done map!

Here's some pictures of the situation at the end of these two turns:





What about settling among the gold, gems, rice and forest? Pros and cons? Maintenance will be high of course, but I don't think we're going to do much better without going east quite a distance, and the gems and gold will help pay the maintenance.

Let me hear your thoughts, and when we have some sort of agreement, I'll continue playing.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks like a plains hill that the warrior is standing on - can you confirm that?

It is surely a good city site in terms of early income, happyness and hammers and it would make a good capital as well when we move the Palace. Going west doesn't look like an option since we can only get a few tiles closer to Kyoto. I would suggest that you move the settler to the plains hill where the warrior is now and in the meantime push the warrior further to the NE. That would give us a little more info on the expansion possibilities in that direction.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

So we have what looks like no place to go and a peach of a site created for us here. My vote is to settle so that we have 2 of the 3 gold & gems in our initial 9 squares (we won't get any culture or a fat cross for a little while). However, we need mining first, so I think we should switch to this now, and not settle until we've got it (science would drop to 0%). Our first build in the city should be a worker.

I'm open to other gambits though.

 

[Mad Professor]

Looks like a plains hill that the warrior is standing on - can you confirm that?.

Yes, It's a plains hill that the warrior is standing on. It's a grassland hill to the NW of the warrior.

I had my eye on the plains to the NE of where the warrior is standing because it has both gems within one tile of it, and is in the middle of three forest tiles which would be good for drawing barbarians into fights to compensate for the fact that the city would not be on a hill. The downside of that is that archers defending the city would be much weaker not on a hill. That may be a good reason for settling on the plains hill which still gets the gold and one of the gems within one tile and stil lgets all those resources within the fat cross. In fact this might just make the plains hill the best spot.

 

[Mad Professor]

If we want to settle on that plains hill where the warrior is, it would be two turns moving the settler back to the start position then two turns through the forest to the plains hill. Four turns movement, then settling any time from 5 turns from now onwards.

 

[Mad Professor]

So we have what looks like no place to go and a peach of a site created for us here. My vote is to settle so that we have 2 of the 3 gold & gems in our initial 9 squares (we won't get any culture or a fat cross for a little while). However, we need mining first, so I think we should switch to this now, and not settle until we've got it (science would drop to 0%). Our first build in the city should be a worker.

I'm open to other gambits though.

We'd need mining as soon as we have a worker, but I wonder about producing a worker first? I'd prefer to have the warrior out exploring a little, so I'd like to produce a military unit first. The gems are on grassland tiles so they produce 2 food and 2 gold per turn without mines. This might be enough to go on with for a few turns.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I like the plains hill a lot. The extra hammer will be valuable if we decide to go for an early worker. The fat cross around the plains hill also looks good with all visible ressources (2 gems, 1 gold, 1 sheep, 1 rice) + 2 floodplain tiles and one oasis inside. At size one we would probably be working the oasis for 3 food and 2 gold. This means that science rate would be less than 100% but more than 50% - my guess would be 70%.

KingdomBrunels idea of switching to mining and going for an early worker is interesting. I don't think that we need to wait with settling until we have researched mining - we should be able to time it in such a way that the worker appears shortly after mining is discovered. We shouldn't forget, however, that we need archers to be able to defend our mines. I guess we might need to run a few tests before we can decide what is the best course of action. We need to convince ourselves that we still have time to produce a couple of archers before the first barbs appear.

 

[ShannonCT]

I like the plains hill a lot. The extra hammer will be valuable if we decide to go for an early worker. The fat cross around the plains hill also looks good with all visible ressources (2 gems, 1 gold, 1 sheep, 1 rice) + 2 floodplain tiles and one oasis inside. At size one we would probably be working the oasis for 3 food and 2 gold. This means that science rate would be less than 100% but more than 50% - my guess would be 70%.

KingdomBrunels idea of switching to mining and going for an early worker is interesting. I don't think that we need to wait with settling until we have researched mining - we should be able to time it in such a way that the worker appears shortly after mining is discovered. We shouldn't forget, however, that we need archers to be able to defend our mines. I guess we might need to run a few tests before we can decide what is the best course of action. We need to convince ourselves that we still have time to produce a couple of archers before the first barbs appear.

I agree that the plains hill is best from a productivity and gold stanpoint. And I think Brunel is right about starting with mining and a worker. It will take longer to get the worker than to get mining so we should settle as soon as possible. I will run a test to see how fast we can get defenses up going for this strategy.

 

[radiopill]

MadProfessor can you post us an overview screenshot of all the know land with the ressources, so I can have a better idea of the sitauation (and also do a dotmap... ).

 

[radiopill]

I agree that the plains hill is best from a productivity and gold stanpoint. And I think Brunel is right about starting with mining and a worker. It will take longer to get the worker than to get mining so we should settle as soon as possible. I will run a test to see how fast we can get defenses up going for this strategy.

I also vote for the plains hill, and for the research, mining seems to be a must, but it can probably wait, 'til hunting is finish (5 turns to let the settler reach the hill + the time for producing a worker)..?

 

[KingdomBrunel]

I think we have to discover mining before we found the city if we're going to found it here. Unless I’m mistaken (and that never happens - umm I mean please point out if I am) when we found this city our research rate will drop to 0% - we simply won’t have enough commerce to support our maintenance costs. If we have mining and bang out a worker, then we should recover quite quickly – not only will the worker prevent any growth while it is being built (and therefore any growth related maintenance), but mining the gems should give us back some science, whilst growing, and then mining gold should put us in profit with a pop 2 city. We should have time to build more defense before turn 42 and the barbs come round.

If we found Tokyo and then research mining it'll take an age to research it won't it? Or am I missing something...

 

[KingdomBrunel]

I also vote for the plains hill

Plains hill for me too.

 

[radiopill]

I think we have to discover mining before we found the city if we're going to found it here. Unless I’m mistaken (and that never happens - umm I mean please point out if I am) when we found this city our research rate will drop to 0% - we simply won’t have enough commerce to support our maintenance costs. If we have mining and bang out a worker, then we should recover quite quickly – not only will the worker prevent any growth while it is being built (and therefore any growth related maintenance), but mining the gems should give us back some science, whilst growing, and then mining gold should put us in profit with a pop 2 city. We should have time to build more defense before turn 42 and the barbs come round.

If we found Tokyo and then research mining it'll take an age to research it won't it? Or am I missing something...

You're right , switching immediately to mining and waiting before settling, make more sense... Netvertheless I'm not sure our science rate will drop to zero if we settle.