SGOTM 02 - Memphis Blues

[Frederiksberg]

Things to consider for the next turn set:

1. War plans. Capturing the two southern cities should be doable. Against archers I would suggest that we outnumber the defense by 3:2 before attacking like we did with Barcelona. Do we want to keep any of the cities?
2. Plans for expansion. We have an unused settler that should be put to work as soon as the palace is moved. But where? We have to consider both the resources available and the prospects of defending without tying up too many units.
3. Tech path. AH is usefull to speed up growth and development in Osaka and Tokyo. If we can't get the axe to leave Madrid we need cats and that speaks in favor of researching Math followed by Construction. Our next Great Scientist is due in 22 turns. Do we use him for discovering Math or for an academy in Tokyo? Right now I like the Academy best since it has a lasting effect throughout the game.
4. Civics. We have the option to switch to Caste System and hire lots of scientists. Before we do we should consider if there are still things we need to pop rush. Courthouses must be whipped first and maybe also warriors to keep happyness high in Kyoto and Tokyo. Caste System would also solve our problem of getting the first border expansion in new cities - it's only 5 turns with an artist working and it's quite valuable to reduce the space for barbs.

 

[ShannonCT]

Things to consider for the next turn set:

1. War plans. Capturing the two southern cities should be doable. Against archers I would suggest that we outnumber the defense by 3:2 before attacking like we did with Barcelona. Do we want to keep any of the cities?

If that east coast city only has two archers like Barcelona did, I think we can send our swordsmen in. They're stronger than the axeman we lost in attacking Barcelona and one or both of them will heal with a promotion next turn. If we wait for one more attacker, there will probably be another archer. That east coast city might be keepable. If we capture it it two turns, by the time it comes out of revolt, the palace will be built and maintenance will be low. From what we can see, it's a pretty worthless city, but maybe there is some seafood that we cant see that would make it worth keeping. We wont know that until we capture it. If it does have some seafood, then it would have the food support to work the stone and two hills in the fat cross. If no seafood, then it would be struggling until calender, which is quite a ways off.

I really hate where Issy put that southern city. No coast, no river tiles.

So I would vote for razing Issy's southern city and keeping the east coast city only if there is some seafood there.

2. Plans for expansion. We have an unused settler that should be put to work as soon as the palace is moved. But where? We have to consider both the resources available and the prospects of defending without tying up too many units.

A city 1S or 2S of the copper would be nice. A second border expansion there would defog the east coast. I also like that forested hill where our warrior is currently fortified. We need more coastal cities and that one would have wheat, fish, and iron. That hill site would be a good fog buster and be easy to defend.

3. Tech path. AH is usefull to speed up growth and development in Osaka and Tokyo. If we can't get the axe to leave Madrid we need cats and that speaks in favor of researching Math followed by Construction. Our next Great Scientist is due in 22 turns. Do we use him for discovering Math or for an academy in Tokyo? Right now I like the Academy best since it has a lasting effect throughout the game.

Maybe we can speed up the Great Scientist if we can finish our whipping and switch over to Caste System to hire more scientists in Kyoto. As as far as how to use him, it's a tough question. Running at an ambitious 70% average science rate, Tokyo would get 5 extra beakers from the academy. When Tokyo grows and has some improvements like a lighthouse and harbor, it could run as many as 5 scientists and get 10 extra beakers from the academy. Mathematics costs 559 beakers. So it would take between 112 and 56 turns for the academy to be better than taking Math right away. Actually, I think the choice should really be between using the GS for a tech or using him as a super scientist in Kyoto, which is worth 6 + 25% Library + 50% Academy = 10.25 beakers per turn right away for the rest of the game. (I have to check whether the super scientist really does get those bonuses). The super scientist would then earn the 559 beakers back in 55 turns. I think we'll have to wait and judge our chances of taking Madrid without cats. Taking Math would get us to Construction faster and let us build more units with better chopping. Taking the super scientist will help us get to astronomy and CS faster.

4. Civics. We have the option to switch to Caste System and hire lots of scientists. Before we do we should consider if there are still things we need to pop rush. Courthouses must be whipped first and maybe also warriors to keep happyness high in Kyoto and Tokyo. Caste System would also solve our problem of getting the first border expansion in new cities - it's only 5 turns with an artist working and it's quite valuable to reduce the space for barbs.

It would be nice if we could wait to switch until Madrid is captured with all its whippable popultion, but I think its going to take a while there. Osaka and Barcelona dont have any population to whip, so as soon as we have the courthouses and a couple warriors in Kyoto and Tokyo, I think we should switch. They can build more warriors and a lighthouse in Tokyo the old-fashioned way.

 

[ShannonCT]

Actually, I think the choice should really be between using the GS for a tech or using him as a super scientist in Kyoto, which is worth 6 + 25% Library + 50% Academy = 10.25 beakers per turn right away for the rest of the game. (I have to check whether the super scientist really does get those bonuses). The super scientist would then earn the 559 beakers back in 55 turns.

I can confirm that a super scientist in Kyoto would get the 75% bonus from the library and academy. He also gives us 1 hammer.

 

[BSouder]

As far as Izzy's axe goes, to me the counter for him is our own axes. He's got the hill and culture on his side, but our axes will negate his + to melee and should have an easier time than swords in knocking him down a couple of pegs to make him killable. Especially if we promote the axes with shock and then city raider. Save the swords for the archers and send a few more axes up there and we could take it without catapults, but it would hurt some.

1. War plans. Capturing the two southern cities should be doable. Against archers I would suggest that we outnumber the defense by 3:2 before attacking like we did with Barcelona. Do we want to keep any of the cities?

At first glance I don't know that either of her southern cities are worth keeping right now. Remember that the more cities we have the more it raises maintenance across the board to some degree. Even with courthouses in Kyoto and Tokyo we need to be careful not to tank our economy. We are planning to keep Madrid when we can capture it, and settling a city of our own also.

2. Plans for expansion. We have an unused settler that should be put to work as soon as the palace is moved. But where? We have to consider both the resources available and the prospects of defending without tying up too many units.

I still favor getting more of a coastal presence and I think we have a very nice spot utilizing the fish and iron to the west of Osaka. It's often hard to find good coastal production centers, but that one would be a really nice place to pump out galleons eventually.

3. Tech path. AH is usefull to speed up growth and development in Osaka and Tokyo. If we can't get the axe to leave Madrid we need cats and that speaks in favor of researching Math followed by Construction. Our next Great Scientist is due in 22 turns. Do we use him for discovering Math or for an academy in Tokyo? Right now I like the Academy best since it has a lasting effect throughout the game.

In general I still favor beeline strategies towards catapults, maces (samurai) and galleons. However, we are soon going to need either agriculture or AH to be able to support our production. I would hope to not have to research both ourselves, but I am not sure we are going to be able to pull that off. If we were to only research one near term, AH would give us the biggest immediate bang while agriculture is the most flexible (can build farms a lot more places than you can build pastures).

Shannon's numbers have convinced me that using the next GS as a super specialist is probably the way to go.

4. Civics. We have the option to switch to Caste System and hire lots of scientists. Before we do we should consider if there are still things we need to pop rush. Courthouses must be whipped first and maybe also warriors to keep happyness high in Kyoto and Tokyo. Caste System would also solve our problem of getting the first border expansion in new cities - it's only 5 turns with an artist working and it's quite valuable to reduce the space for barbs.

I really like Caste System in this situation for a couple of reasons. The biggest of those in my mind is the easy border expansions. Not only do they let us use some nice resources in some cases, but it's free fog busting. Of course, there is also the science implications in Kyoto and Tokyo. The downside of it is that Barcelona is going to suck production wise without the whip.

I would say we need to switch to Caste System, but not just yet. Osaka will expand it's borders on it's own with culture from the Palace. An artist for a quick culture expansion in the coastal city west of Osaka would be nice though (assuming we did settle there). I would say to let Kyoto and Tokyo dictate our timing for switching. Once both of them have their courthouses and don't really need the whip for a while they will need to recover population for a bit before we could run more than 2 scientists anyway. When one of them is ready to run 3 scientists and still grow, we can switch.

 

[radiopill]

I have some bad news, I won't have any opportunities to play until I'va fixed my problem with my graphic card... So I need a skip...

Things to consider for the next turn set:

1. War plans. Capturing the two southern cities should be doable. Against archers I would suggest that we outnumber the defense by 3:2 before attacking like we did with Barcelona. Do we want to keep any of the cities?

If we have 2 swords and a archer with cover, it should be enougth... and as Shannon says it, keep only the coastal city if there's enougth food for working the stone and the hills. We should also scout around the barb city and see if it's worth keeping it...

2. Plans for expansion. We have an unused settler that should be put to work as soon as the palace is moved. But where? We have to consider both the resources available and the prospects of defending without tying up too many units.

I really like the proposition of Shannon about the iron city on the westcoast...

3. Tech path. AH is usefull to speed up growth and development in Osaka and Tokyo. If we can't get the axe to leave Madrid we need cats and that speaks in favor of researching Math followed by Construction. Our next Great Scientist is due in 22 turns. Do we use him for discovering Math or for an academy in Tokyo? Right now I like the Academy best since it has a lasting effect throughout the game.

If we want to take Madrid, we surely need cat' so I'm in favor of Math/Construction. The GS should be turn into a super specialist IMO.

4. Civics. We have the option to switch to Caste System and hire lots of scientists. Before we do we should consider if there are still things we need to pop rush. Courthouses must be whipped first and maybe also warriors to keep happyness high in Kyoto and Tokyo. Caste System would also solve our problem of getting the first border expansion in new cities - it's only 5 turns with an artist working and it's quite valuable to reduce the space for barbs.

Good idea. Let's go for that.

 

[ShannonCT]

As far as Izzy's axe goes, to me the counter for him is our own axes. He's got the hill and culture on his side, but our axes will negate his + to melee and should have an easier time than swords in knocking him down a couple of pegs to make him killable. Especially if we promote the axes with shock and then city raider. Save the swords for the archers and send a few more axes up there and we could take it without catapults, but it would hurt some.

Unfortunately, if we attack with the axemen first, they will have to face the archers and if we attack with swordsmen first, they will have to face the axeman (You can test this on the save file). A swordsman with City Raider II cold do some serious damage to the axeman and probably let us dictate the battle afterwards, with the next two swordsmen attacking archers and the two axemen attacking the axeman and spearman. So assuming both swordsmen survive against the east coast city, we would still need one more sword with Cover and City Raider I to hope to win against the four units in Madrid. I expect we will need Issy to make a mistake to take Madrid without cats.

I have some bad news, I won't have any opportunities to play until I'va fixed my problem with my graphic card... So I need a skip...

It looks like Civilization painted by Claude Monet or Eduard Manet. Surely as a Frenchman you can play this way. OK, maybe not. We can skip you and you can jump back in when you're ready.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I have some bad news, I won't have any opportunities to play until I'va fixed my problem with my graphic card... So I need a skip.

Have you bought a new one or is it the old card that has gone berserk?

According to the rooster that would mean that KingdomBrunel is up next.

Mad Professor
Frederiksberg (Just played)
Radiopill (skip)
KingdomBrunel (up next)
ShannonCT
BSouder

As far as Izzy's axe goes, to me the counter for him is our own axes. He's got the hill and culture on his side, but our axes will negate his + to melee and should have an easier time than swords in knocking him down a couple of pegs to make him killable. Especially if we promote the axes with shock and then city raider. Save the swords for the archers and send a few more axes up there and we could take it without catapults, but it would hurt some.

Axes could to some extent solve our problem allthough they would probably be facing the archers first (The toughest defender is always chosen first). How many axes would we need to capture Madrid? Maybe somewhere around 6 if we add our two swordsmen to the stack? And maybe more if Izzy builds more archers.

I like the coastal hill site on the west coast as well and using the GS as a super specialist also sounds good to me. Waiting for Kyoto to grow after whipping courthouse before changing to Caste System also makes sense.

It is probably a good idea to start working on a road towards the western hill and also start thinking about bringing an archer out there for city defense. Then we would be ready to settle as soon as the palace gets built.

 

[ShannonCT]

I like the coastal hill site on the west coast as well and using the GS as a super specialist also sounds good to me. Waiting for Kyoto to grow after whipping courthouse before changing to Caste System also makes sense.

It is probably a good idea to start working on a road towards the western hill and also start thinking about bringing an archer out there for city defense. Then we would be ready to settle as soon as the palace gets built.

When the palace is finished and if there are no barb axemen approaching, we can send that axeman near Osaka up the road toward Barcelona and send the archer north of Osaka down to the west coast hill. The axeman in Osaka's queue can be finished before any more axemen could get to Osaka. Osaka's borders will expand 8 turns after the palace and bust most of the fog that the archer was busting. We could leave the warrior as insurance in that new city or send him to bust more fog somewhere else.

Something like this:

 

[Mad Professor]

According to the rooster that would mean that KingdomBrunel is up next.

Mad Professor
Frederiksberg (Just played)
Radiopill (skip)
KingdomBrunel (up next)
ShannonCT
BSouder

I haven't seen KingdomBrunel post here for nearly a week (unless I missed a post?). Let us know if you're lurking around, KingdomBrunel, and when you think you can play.

@Radiopill: Is this video card problem a short term one or longer term? Do you want to just swap with KingdomBrunel and play the following turnset, or are you going to need longer than that, and be skipped this round entirely?

 

[Mad Professor]

My opinions on the discussion of the last day or so:

The axe in Madrid: It would nicest to try and lure it out. If we can get it to attack one of our units outside the city and either lose, or win but not able to retreat, that would be the best. (Preferably lose of course) That would remove the complication of the axe/archer defense being bad for us no matter which unit we attack the city with.

The 2 southern spanish cities: Definitely burn the one near the eastern copper. The east coast one - Hmm. difficult call. There is a "empire size" factor in the city maintenance which increases for every city according to the number of cities in your empire, so we need to consider that. We just need to weigh up the cost of building a city against the cost of building a settler ourselves at a better time.

Using our own settler on that forested hill where the warrior is fogbusting is a very good idea. It's a good spot. I like it.

Tech: AH now is good, then I'd be going for math and construction after that whether we need cats for Madrid or not.

Civics: whip the courthouses (at the right moment) then grow Tokyo and Kyoto again for a few turns, then go for Caste System. Caste System will be very powerful in those island cities with those food resources, under Hereditary Rule.

The next great scientist: I like the super specialist option

War plans generally: Go first to the east coast city, attack if possible, then I'd like to try taking Madrid. The other southern city is actually helping us, and can't be helping Izzy any at all. It's costing her maintenance, without producing much, and it's absorbing barbarians and fogbusting. I think it helps us more than it helps Izzy. If we can bring Madrid down sooner rather than later after the east coast city, we can turn and take out the southern one at our liesure, probably simply to reduce war weariness!

Another thought: I was playing with the idea of the Hanging Gardens. the major problem is the lack of great engineers meaning we'd have to build it hammer by hammer, which may rule it out completely. If we could build it though it would be a big help if we've a number of cities by then, and HR to help dampen the unhappies from extra population. the hanging gardens are generally not an early favourite with the AI, so we might still have a good chance of getting it. The probleem thoug has I said would be the hammer to build it since we have no great engineer.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

OK, I see I'm next. Hope your graphics card gets sorted soon Radiopill. I'll play tomorrow evening UK time (36 hours from now). I'll post again before then. No posts as I've been reading and agreeing.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK, I see I'm next. Hope your graphics card gets sorted soon Radiopill. I'll play tomorrow evening UK time (36 hours from now). I'll post again before then. No posts as I've been reading and agreeing.

Sounds good. Would be nice to hear your plans for the next turn set even when it's more or less a summary of the discussion. (I guess it always is).

Btw. have you been following the progress charts? It looks like we are falling behind in terms of score. Kind of odd since I couldn't point out any clear mistake on our part. Given the slow pace of our conquest researching Monarchy before CoL may have been slightly better, but not much. Also the teams that may have taken a chance and gone directly for religion or for writing may have been rewarded by the fact that iron is so conveniently available near the obvious place for settling Osaka.

Hopefully we will be able to reap the benefits of our strategy when the Palace is moved and we have captured Madrid and the Mahabodhi. The latter should even out our competition with the "religious" teams. If we can capture Madrid earlier than teams with less military focus that might be a chance for us to get back in the race.

 

[ShannonCT]

Btw. have you been following the progress charts? It looks like we are falling behind in terms of score. Kind of odd since I couldn't point out any clear mistake on our part. Given the slow pace of our conquest researching Monarchy before CoL may have been slightly better, but not much. Also the teams that may have taken a chance and gone directly for religion or for writing may have been rewarded by the fact that iron is so conveniently available near the obvious place for settling Osaka.

Hopefully we will be able to reap the benefits of our strategy when the Palace is moved and we have captured Madrid and the Mahabodhi. The latter should even out our competition with the "religious" teams. If we can capture Madrid earlier than teams with less military focus that might be a chance for us to get back in the race.

We've done a lot of things that dont show up in the score but should help us do well in the real competition of fastest conquest. We've done everything to speed up research including getting the gems and gold quickly and building libraries in Kyoto and Tokyo. We've built more units than almost all the other teams so we can keep the barbs at bay and attack Issy. We've ignored techs and buildings that will help expand our territory and we've sacraficed a lot of population. So low population, little territory, and no wonders = low score. But it wont matter when we're rolling over our rivals with samurai, cats, and galleons. With all the empty space south of Osaka, it would be easy to rack up a big score without conquering anybody in the early game.

Teams that went directly for religion or writing would still have to go through the Mining-Bronze Working-Iron Working track to find that iron. I dont think many teams would have settled close enough to the bronze to get it in Osaka's borders for quite a while. Having the early religion in Osaka would have been a nice fog-buster but there are still huge tracks of land where barbs would appear from, and they would appear before archery was discovered.

The only thing I think we would want to change if we could go back would be getting Iron Working sooner and building more axes/swords instead of the settler.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

What are everyone's thoughts on where we are going technologically? Frederiksberg left this on AH at the end of his turns, but only as a placeholder. AH will be useful on for Tokyo (if we have a worker), and once we’ve expanded borders in Osaka. I notice that Issy has it already though, so it may be something we could take in a peace settlement. We’d need alphabet for that first though.

Otherwise, Civil Service has my vote, and a change to Bureaucracy, which will make Osaka a real powerhouse. It also gets us moving towards Samurai. Metal Casting would also be a potential, but doesn’t give us the benefit of Bureaucracy, but would allow a forge in Kyoto and Tokyo, which will be useful if we ever want an engineer specialist, and Colossus would be nice. My vote is still CS though.

I'd also like to know what's north of Madrid: if it's land, and we have the chance to bump into another civ, then alphabet may be better sooner than later. If it's just sea, then I think it can wait.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Btw. have you been following the progress charts? It looks like we are falling behind in terms of score. Kind of odd since I couldn't point out any clear mistake on our part. Given the slow pace of our conquest researching Monarchy before CoL may have been slightly better, but not much. Also the teams that may have taken a chance and gone directly for religion or for writing may have been rewarded by the fact that iron is so conveniently available near the obvious place for settling Osaka.

Yep, I agree with Shannon - I think this is likely to be due to our lack of culture and copious use of the whip. Once we have our new palace and spread Buddhism around a bit, I think this should come back.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Civics: whip the courthouses (at the right moment) then grow Tokyo and Kyoto again for a few turns, then go for Caste System. Caste System will be very powerful in those island cities with those food resources, under Hereditary Rule.

Good idea, I agree - anyone with objections to this?

 

[ShannonCT]

What are everyone's thoughts on where we are going technologically? Frederiksberg left this on AH at the end of his turns, but only as a placeholder. AH will be useful on for Tokyo (if we have a worker), and once we’ve expanded borders in Osaka. I notice that Issy has it already though, so it may be something we could take in a peace settlement. We’d need alphabet for that first though.

Otherwise, Civil Service has my vote, and a change to Bureaucracy, which will make Osaka a real powerhouse. It also gets us moving towards Samurai. Metal Casting would also be a potential, but doesn’t give us the benefit of Bureaucracy, but would allow a forge in Kyoto and Tokyo, which will be useful if we ever want an engineer specialist, and Colossus would be nice. My vote is still CS though.

I'd also like to know what's north of Madrid: if it's land, and we have the chance to bump into another civ, then alphabet may be better sooner than later. If it's just sea, then I think it can wait.

Until we move the palace and whip the courthouses in Tokyo and Kyoto, our tech rate is going to be quite low and techs like CS and Alphabet would take a long time. I'm in favor of sticking with Animal Husbandry as a cheap tech that will help us right away. Going for Alphabet afterwards would be a gamble, as we dont know if we can meet any other civs pre-astronomy. Evidence seems to suggest No. Issy has built all her cities to the south and we still haven't seen any galleys from other civs. I think the only techs we could get from Issy would be AH, Agriculture, and Masonry, all quite cheap. There has been some votes in favor of Math, for better chopping and for leading to Construction (after Masonry). This seems like a good all-around choice since it will give us more hammers soon, it will help in the war, and it is part of the Astronomy track.

Poking around north of Madrid seems smart. We can answer the Alphabet question before we finish AH and maybe Issy will try to attack our axeman with hers. If we do meet another civ up there (and where there's one, there might be more), I would be open to Alphabet. If not, then my vote is Math.

 

[ShannonCT]

Civics: whip the courthouses (at the right moment) then grow Tokyo and Kyoto again for a few turns, then go for Caste System. Caste System will be very powerful in those island cities with those food resources, under Hereditary Rule.

Sounds good. Just make sure the whip overflows go into warriors and not the granary in Tokyo or the Parthenon in Kyoto. Both of those cities will need more happiness to run more scientists.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Sounds good. Would be nice to hear your plans for the next turn set even when it's more or less a summary of the discussion. (I guess it always is).

Yep sure, I'm heading towards going for the eastern city, but I want to see the save again first. Spain can keep the southern city for now I agree that barbs must be a pain in the butt for them.

 

[ShannonCT]

So let me sum up the team discussion:

1) Techs
We seem to agree to stick with Animal Husbandry. Then there is a consensus for Mathematics, with some interest in Alphabet and Civil Service.

2) Kyoto and Tokyo
Both should whip a courthouse the turn before the palace is finished. They should both try to have enough warriors to stay at or below the happiness limit. They should try to increase their population and then run more scientists. Convert to Caste System after the needed whipping has been done. The Great Scientist that appears in Kyoto should be made a super scientist.

3) Osaka
Osaka should finish the palace and then keep building axemen for war with Issy. When the borders expand, it should try to work on some population growth by working the sheep after they are pasturized.

4) War
Attack the east coast city if we have a good chance of capturing it with our two swordsmen. Consider keeping the city if it has some seafood. Hang around Madrid with our two axemen and try to scout up north. Watch out for a galley leaving Madrid and send an axeman back to Barcelona if Issy is going to counterattack. Dont attack Madrid until we have at least 6 units up there.

5) Barcelona
Maybe build a workboat for scouting?

6) Settler in Osaka
After the palace is completed, build a city on the hill where our warrior is standing. Send an archer, either from up north or newly built in Osaka, to defend that city.

7) Workers
Continue chopping the palace. Build a road down to the new city. Chop more axemen. Pasturize the sheep when Osaka's borders expand. Continue the road north to Barcelona.

8) Barbs
Keep an eye on that barb axeman. If he kills or bypasses our archer, be ready to kill him with our axeman in Osaka. After we have an archer defending our newly built city, consider sending the warrior to bust fog elsewhere.

I hope I didn't miss anything.