SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Compromise said:
The whole word should be capitalized if I'd looked at the SGOTM2 threads!

*sighs with relief* Apparently we've been Compromised, but only in the nicest way possible.

If we're gonna found on the plains hill, then I recommend the following tech order: Mysticism (while building a worker; this will probably take a little bit) then to either Agriculture or Mining. Which one is cheaper?

After Agri or Mining, I'd say we pick up the next one (we can build our warrior BarbWatch forces), by next one, I mean the one we neglected, so that we can get some either commerce or food. Then, I'd go pottery, and head over to hunting/archery right after that.

Hopefully by then, the barb safety net will... keep us safe. If you guys don't want that much economic development, so early, I'd say that we should then try to slip hunting/archery in after mining, and then hit agriculture before animal husbandry, finally getting pottery.

These are only estimations. I think it would really help if we could get some cash from a hut, to allow us to roll big research at the start; but don't risk p-oed villagers... what a conundrum.
 
One slight concern with that spot is that it wastes those fish - not a big thing since we have another lot. The plains hill does look pretty tasty though :)
 
Is rice +2F or +1F when irrigated?

Zalson: I'm not sure if we need Mining/Agriculture quite so fast after Mysticism. Osaka will need the time to settle, build an obelisk AND build a worker before Mining would be of any use. I suggest Mysticism-Hunting-Archery-Mining, if we can fit that all in before the worker is built. After that, we should probably go for AH, because if I'm not mistaken, sheep provide more food than rice does. Then Pottery and Agriculture, maybe BW in between. Then we're going to want to make our way to CoL if we want to found Confucianism.
 
Here are the tech speeds

Mysticism - 10 turns
Agriculture - 12
Pottery - 13
Sailing - 16
Hunting - 8
Mining - 10

Mysticism will take 10 turns at current speeds, and remember that once we settle, our research is just about halved. After we settle, an obelisk is 45 hammers, so if we settle on a plains hill, and work the grass forest, it will take 15 turns for the obelisk to complete, and then another 15 for the borders to expand.

We have the wheel, so a worker wouldn't be completely out of the question before we get Mining (since it could road our resources), but we're goign to want mining before too long (base gems is 2/0/1, improved mine is 2/1/6 I believe.

The other thing to consider is that start spot (with 3 resources right in a row) looks staged, i.e. added by Gyaathar. So he may "want" us to settle there, since other, now hidden, resources may be there (copper, horses, etc)

Compromise (or anyone) - care to get an updated shadow game going?

Another thing I'd like to consider is settling ON one of those resources. What's the center tile look like if you settle on a gems?

ETA: Sheesh - I search for "settling on resources" and I get everyone's SGOTM2 threads. I'm really not trying to be spoilery, really!

ETA again: Looks like settling on the gems makes it a 2/1/3 tile - http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commercebonus2no.jpg

ETA again again: To be complete, settling on the sheep or rice make them a 3/1/1 tile,
http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foodbonus8sd.jpg
 
I have to say our post to turns played ratio is exquisite. I posted my 1/2 turn on post #108, so this post now represents a 34:1 post to turns played ratio!!
 
Now if that gem was on a plains hill, then settling on it would make it a 2/2/3 :crazyeye: city tile. I don't think it is worth settling on the gems. I would guess that some nice person put the gems there to help offset the maintenance costs.
 
Generally speaking, the conventional wisdom is that you only want to found a city on a resource that a) is a pretty bad tile improvement, e.g. elephants, incense, etc., or b) is a resource you don't want to have pillaged, e.g. oil or aluminum.

Didn't uberfish settle on a plains hill near, but not on, the gold mine in Epic 4? I seem to recall that he did quite well keeping up in research as a result.

One nice thing about the resources--and I include the floodplain as a resource too--is that they are on the same side of the rivers as our citadel site! That might mean the barbs will attack them by crossing the river, thus incurring an attack penalty.

I think an immediate switch to Mysticism is the way to go. With some luck, maybe the obelisk will bring Copper into our city's cross before too long. At least it will give us some flexibility for the placement of our next city, if we have to found one.

Looking at the warrior, it's tough to see how it will be very productive in the next few turns. This is largely because the hill has revealed a lot already and the tiles north and east look like mostly forest, which won't be a good extremely-early-game resource. I guess just NE, NE, NE then reevaluate to reveal as many squares as possible, since we'll want to expose as much land as possible to find Copper when we get Bronze.

For techs, my thought now is: Mysticism, Hunting, Archery, Mining, Bronzeworking, Pottery in that order. (Maybe Pottery after Mining, I'm not sure.) Unless we discover another food source in range of the plains hill, improving either the Rice or the Sheep is only going to give us a +2F tile, and with the floodplain and the rice, we've already got 2 +1F tiles to work for growth. A Granary will probably get us just as much food as improving the tiles. (Note: I might be wrong here because of health cap issues. It depends on how many forests we have.)

Note: to get another +1F from the rice, we'll need to farm the square north of the sheep on the river after Civil Service. But that's a long way away right now.

I think the build order in Osaka should be: Obelisk, start Worker, Archer (when Archery completes), finish Worker. But I'll probably want to shadow-test that build order. Depending on when our worker techs come online, it might be better to complete the Worker first.

@regoarrarr: Did you queue up workboat, warrior, workboat in Kyoto?

With the Gems, our happy cap in this city will be 5, just like our unconnected capital. Improving the rice and building a granary will give us just as much health as improving the rice and the sheep. That leads me to think that Agriculture should be after Pottery above.

Final note: Now I can see why one team posted a save after just one turn!
 
Okay, so let's assume 4 turns to settle Osaka. That means 4 turns of 100% research, which leaves us 6 turns of full research to get Mysticism. Since after founding we're now at 50% research, that will be 12 turns till we get Mysticism.

Hunting will be another 16 turns, and Archery another 24 after that (slightly lower as Kyoto grows and works another 2C tile).

Judging from that, it seems like delaying the settler seems like a smarter move, since it allows us to get Mysticism sooner, which would allow us to start the obelisk immediately upon founding Osaka. Though I'm not sure we want to wait 10 turns to found though...
 
I don't think the Gems will affect Kyoto, but they will help Osaka.

I agree that there's no rush to get the settler settled and drop our research; but with the gems there, there's no big push to delay either. Take the exploratory route back to the plains hill. Start a worker until we get Mysticism if needed. That will probably mean we'll want to complete the Worker before building our archer so as not to lose hammers.
 
I'm sure there will also be a flood of barbarians from the north at some point (if there is a lot of fogged land up there), so we're going to want defenders/strikers as soon as possible, judging whether or not the barbs come before the worker. If we really want chariots, we're going to want horses - Animal Husbandry. If we want to go straight to axemen, we're going to want copper - Bronze Working. Of course, we don't know if we have either of these. Therefore, I'm going to go play Epic 6. :lol:
 
SUMMARY POST

(Ratio of 4:1, 4 Summary Posts for every turn :lol: )

regoarrarr (still up)
BeefontheBone (on deck)
EL_OSO
Kodii
Compromise
Ruff_Hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
Has anyone checked the Victory page? EDIT- We have seven (7) opponents

Techonology:
Mysticism -> Hunting -> Archery -> Mining -> BW? Pottery? -> AH? Agriculture? -> Writing?

Settling:
To the plains hill we go! Of course, we're still doing some exploring to see if there are any better spots, or if there is a better spot around the three resources.

Builds:
Kyoto - Workboat, Warrior, Workboat...
Osaka - Obelisk, Partial Worker, Archer, Worker

Religion:
Still going for Confucianism or Taoism?

Great People:
Run scientists in Kyoto after libraries (Writing)

Civics:
Depending on how food is going, we're going to want to switch to Slavery after getting BW. Other civics are too far to consider just yet.
 
After spending most of an hour catching up I'm on board with the current plan, with a few minor points.

I'm not completely convinced that plains hills are *always* the best starting plot. Yes, they are very powerful, and I often settle on them as well. But, if after scouting, we may find that there aren't many more hills in the area, and remember that although 2 hammers on the starting tile is awful nice, you are sacrificing the long-term production capability of that tile (4 hammers). All I'm saying is that lets make sure we have some more productive tiles available to us before settling that hill. If there are several more plains hills around then I'm all for it.
 
I thought about that low productivity too, Snaproll. I'm pretty sure it's okay in this situation, though. My reasoning is: 1) we've got at least one grasslands hill we can mine. 2) Slavery is an efficient means of converting food to hammers, and we've got +5F by working the rice, the sheep and a cottage on the floodplains. 3) I'm thinking we'll want good commerce in Osaka, then good production in Tokyo (the 3rd city, IIRC), which will probably have a Copper mine at the least.

After that, I think we're hoping to find cities which will largely support themselves and pump out troops for us. I doubt if we'll research past Ironworking, Construction, and (probably) Astronomy.

But you're right, it won't help to look around a bit more.

If these ratios of Posts/Summaries to actual game turns keeps up, we will all be blacklisted as spammers. Maybe they will add an award category. Maybe they'll give us a little exhibit here:

 
Argh, let's play already! *Throws hands up into the air and runs away screaming, similar to the martian in War of the Worlds*

Ahem... I meant that... slightly humorously. I would like to play eventually. Not that this discussion is bad, but I think we need to adopt a plan and stick to it. I'd recommend mining before hunting, simply because it will allow us to get hunting faster. If the team doesn't agree, that's fine. But c'mon, guys!:eek: :D :lol:
 
I think we're waiting for regoarrarr to get home from work and ignore his kids so he can play. :)

I'm okay--actually, I like it a lot; more turns of an improved tile--with Mining before Hunting, especially since we'll probably get a Worker before we get an Archer.
 
It won't. But it will improve our research rate because we'll be able to work the Gems sooner in Osaka.
 
How long would it take to settle Osaka, build the obelisk and then the worker, though? At the same time, how long would it take to research Mysticism, Hunting then Archery? It doesn't matter, lets just get things moving :lol:
 
Compromise said:
I doubt if we'll research past Ironworking, Construction, and (probably) Astronomy.
Forget about playing (or not), I want to know why the game will be over after we finish with these techs - are we just giving up or ...
 
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