SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

[bobrath]

With only one turn in the monastery... we could just switch to the palace right away since that's the decision we're looking at. Course I'm expecting namliam to have already played his turns (if he went with his 12 hours), so this might be a moot point. The upside to finishing off the monastery would be that we might want to consider overflow whipping part of the palace as a more efficient hammer usage...

 

[pigswill]

Does palace count as a wonder? AlanH is not happy about whip-overflowing into wonders so it might be worth checking with him.
If we're moving palace we need four cities; cow city or one on mainland? probably cow-city, low risk and with whipped courthouse should break even.

 

[bobrath]

While I appreciate that AlanH has posted about the whipping overflow into wonders, he has not stated at this time that it is not allowed. I think its more out loud thinking for the next SG and making sure all teams have the same information. We're not abusing it by only building the wonders with whipping.

The Palace is a national wonder.

We're set to found cow city right now (well 2 turns, 1 to move the galley and 1 to found). No settler in place for the mainland. So we could start building the palace in 2 turns if we found cow island, but far more then that if we wait for a mainland site.

 

[Cosmichail]

LuvtoBuild (Darth Build)

We could use a jungle foray as a distraction to draw troops out of her heartland while we sail up to plunge the knife in deep.

Aahhh will turn you into a Sith Lord yet.

Does palace count as a wonder? AlanH is not happy about whip-overflowing into wonders so it might be worth checking with him.

I thought he was ok with it but that was a few days ago so has his opinion changed? I don't think palace is a wonder since it's not listed there. (EDIT: stand corrected national wonder)

If we're moving palace we need four cities;

Good point and cow island is ready to settle

Ok I will be up next so if NamliaM has played I will do the following:

1. settle cow island (if NamliaM hasn't yet but probably has knowing him)
2. move the palace.
3. start settler in Tokyo
4. Get OB with Izzy and scout her lands and see if that connection leads further north.

I am up in the air about TGL as we are late in the game for it. If we had marble it would be so much better. Now Bob you mean to use another item to overflow whip the palace. What about the pop in Osaka it's at 5 and can we afford to loose any citizens there other than 1. We need to keep working the gold/gems/sheep otherwise our gpt drops like an anvil.

 

[bobrath]

Yup, only whip the 1 citizen in Osaka. More then that won't regrow fast enough... The only real question there is if whipping the citizen that's working the iron makes hammer sense.... On second thought (not doing any real math here), but whipping in Osaka is prolly a bad idea since the gold keeps our economy afloat and the iron is more productive over the turns its worked versus regrowing to work it again. Someone else can do the math better then I!

 

[eektor]

I know I was considering whipping in Osaka, but I thought it was in our best interest to keep that city growing (even more important since there is iron there now).

 

[namliaM]

That moves the iron out of the cross and doesn't improve the other tiles. We have sailing, so we have coastal trade routes, which means blue would be hooked to that river just by being on the coast (I beleive).

Uhm... No... well actually we trade off the Iron+Hill+Plain for 2 grass and a flood plain, also we pick up more Riverside for +1 commerce and we pick up +2 In essance we trade hammers for beakers.

Issabella does have metals
We cannot give her Iron, therefor she has Iron her self.
Also she has Horses, because we cannot offer them either

I will not play for now, cause I would found CoR (Cows on the Rocks, i.e. Cow City).... which would be going against the current team "orders", I want to try and convince some of you (or prove myself wrong) before I go and possibly do something like that. If everyone sticks to "no cow for now" and "throw that stone away" fine I wont do it.

OK here goes... Lets see if I can prove myself wrong...
1) We are currently paying 2 gold in upkeep, this would magicaly disappear by founding the CoR, improving/roading the Cow and Disbanding the worker (we dont need him for a long while anymore). (+2)
2) A trade route will be made between the CoR and STICK +1 commerce in each city (+2)
3) At size 4 it will work the cow + City Center (1 Commerce) + 2 clams (4 commerce) and 1 Coastal tile (2 Commerce) = 7 commerce.
3a) If needed/wanted we can switch the cow to a Coastal tile adding 2 more commerce, but we wont do that here.
Total gain: 2 + 2 + 7 = +11gpt

Pre Palace jump
CoR will be 1 max 2 maintenance at size 4. Lets asume 2 also asume that founding CoR will drive the cost for each city up by 1 gold maintenance for # of cities (which I dont think it will) thats 3 more gold cost.
Total cost: 2 + 3 = -5gpt.

Net worth: 6gpt
This means we have been wasting 6gpt for the past turns and for the future turns we dont found CoR.
Adding a courthouse to this calculation would reduce the cost to 1+3= -4 gpt (upping the worth to 7gpt)

BUT what about the future when we jump palace?
Lets asume we jump palace to Osaka. Currently at size 5 Osaka is costing us 13gpt. Thus CoR will cost us roughly the same, just for the heck of it lets add 1gpt making it 14gpt.
So if we found it after jumping palace it will cost us 14 gpt + 3gpt (1 gold per other city) = 17gpt , while netting only 11gpt.
A net drain of -6gpt.
BUT wait, we can build a courthouse. 14 * 50% = 7gpt + 3gpt = 10gpt eventually it will be (at size 4) a net value of 1 gpt. BUT only after we build a courthouse.

By founding CoR now we can have a courthouse ready and build before we jump palace, therefor instead of having a drain on gpt now for the settler and Worker and having a drain later, cause we havent build a courthouse yet.
We can have something that adds to our Economy now, and adds to our economy a little later.

Not withstanding that CoR will be a better producer than STICK, a little less whippable... but still quite whippable.

I think I made these calculations rather negatively towards founding CoR, but still it looks like to me that we would come out ahead if we found it now.

More or less the same calculation goes for SIC (Stone Island City) except (pre palace jump):
- We trade the Cow (no commerce) and 1 coastal (-2 commerce) for 2 Whales (1 commerce each untill Optics = +2 commerce).
- SIC doesnt have a settler yet, assuming we would "stockpile settlers" (as meantioned by Pigswill) that would too cost us 1gpt for the settler (only 1 not 2 due to the worker).
- SIC will add 1 gold to each city too, but there is 1 more city to add a gold to -1gpt
So in the end SIC is 2gpt less effective than CoR is.
SIC pre palace jump is worth +4gpt.

SIC + CoR = 6 + 4 = 10gpt net worth Pre palace jump

That is untill Currency or Optics
Optics (1) allows for Whaling boats. These add 1 and 2 commerce. (+4 Commerce over CoR)
Optics (2) would add 1 allowing for 1 more pop across the Bermuda Triangle (STICK (Kyoto) + CoR + SIC), because there is no Ocean trading untill Astronomy. Each one of those pop works a coastal tile 3*2 gpt = 6gpt. But wait, that extra pop is costs extra gold in upkeep in each city too... -3gpt. Total +3gpt
Currency adds a trade route which would not be used if not for SIC. Thus at that point having founded SIC will add an additional +3gpt.

Assuming we DONT jump palace (yet) and do have Optics and Currency. This would make SIC worth 4+4+3+3=14gpt.
SIC + CoR = 6 + 14 = 20gpt net worth Pre palace jump having Optics and Currency. This is not very likely to happen tho....

SIC post palace jump:
Well SIC is a little bit close to Osaka, so maintenance will be 1gpt less... Maintenance of SIC will be 13 gpt. So before having a courthouse, SIC will drain +4 - 13 = -9gpt without adding anything.
Add in a courthouse and it will be +4 - 7 = -3gpt drain on our economy.
Once Optics and Currency come around the corner.... -3gpt + 4 + 3 + 3 = +7gpt

SO to sum it all up.
Pre palace jump: CoR + SIC = 6 + 4 = +10GPT
Post palace jump without courthouses: CoR + SIC = -6 - 9 = -15gpt
Post palace jump with courthouses: CoR + SIC = 1 + -3 = -2GPT
Post palace jump with courthouses + Currency: CoR + SIC = 1 + 0 = 1GPT
Post palace jump with courthouses + Optics: CoR + SIC = 1 + 4 = 5 GPT
Post palace jump with courthouses + Optics + Currency: CoR + SIC = 1 + 7 = 8 GPT

The Palace is 240 hammers, thats 4 swordsman and 20! turns to build in Osaka (at the moment). Do we want to get those 4 swords or the palace at this time? The longer we delay the palace jump, the longer we get +10gpt.
If we wait for the jump untill we have either Optics or Currency we will allways be making a profit on them.

NOTE 1: I tried to prove myself wrong, adding 1gpt for each city is probably over doing it so there is atleast an extra +3 or +4 maybe even +7gpt in there.

NOTE 2: I didnt take into account having a library in each and maybe running a scientist. A scientist changes 2 commerce to 3 beakers, assuming the city will give atleast 1 more beaker it self, having 4 beakers total. The lib will add 1 more.

If all fairs well there is the possibility to add 7 + 2 = 9gpt (beaker/commerce/beaker) to that total.

Offcourse if you really want to calculate it you have to go much deeper in that you may be able to run 10% science higher ... without them... but just putting this together allready to me 2 hours or so...
And offcourse, what if there are again further Islands to enhabit North of those 2 islands only to be visible upon border expansion?

 

[namliaM]

Yup, only whip the 1 citizen in Osaka. More then that won't regrow fast enough... The only real question there is if whipping the citizen that's working the iron makes hammer sense.... On second thought (not doing any real math here), but whipping in Osaka is prolly a bad idea since the gold keeps our economy afloat and the iron is more productive over the turns its worked versus regrowing to work it again. Someone else can do the math better then I!

Any tile trading 1 food for >2.something hammers is not worth whipping IIRC...

I know I was considering whipping in Osaka, but I thought it was in our best interest to keep that city growing (even more important since there is iron there now).

We need Granaries... BAD... I would make Pottery a priority before even Alphabet ....

*waits patiently for reactions from the team, which will be read in the morning *

==> I need to read up on the big post by cosmichail... on the previous page.

 

[bobrath]

TBH, I think we're all in favor of Cow island being founded asap. The palace jump makes sense when we bring into consideration the growth which will come from taking out Izzy. 4 swords is not enough (imo) to make a true dent in Izzy, so taking the time now to build the palace in Osaka isn't a "bad" investment - esp if we found blue dot and capture the barb city.

I'm still not 100% sold on stone island btw. I just don't see the growth happening fast enough to justify the additional cost. For the first ten turns it will be on minimal growth since the whales are out of cultural reach. Even once the whales are in reach, they're only 1 extra food on an ocean tile... Yes a workboat will allow stone city to jump up the hammer costs, but we're really staring at a *very* slow growth city there. Slow growth in our current economy results in a net drain.

Alpha vs Pottery - Having Alphabet will allow us to "see" Izzy's techs and we can very easily (I'd assume) get Pottery from her in one of our first trades. Course Alpha is a wee bit more expensive...

 

[Cosmichail]

In the previous posts we are agreed to move the palace to Osaka especially with buro. Why it would in the long run make a difference of 48 gpt. (well Osaka would need to work gems 12/gold 7/cottages max 7 *2=14 = 33 + 8 from palace = 41 gpt * 50% = 60 gpt. Much more than you could ever get at Kyoto. Yes swords are nice but we are going to have financial problems and need to deal with it courthouses won't do enough. We need to expand on mainland.

We are also agreed to settle cow city to allow the palace move. (need 4 cities). I know a lot of reading but that's the jest of it.

Also question NamliaM you are aware there is no trade route with Izzy unless you did play somewhat and connect us. So how would you know what she has? (according to trade screen we are not connected).

The team is agreed on the following:

settle cow city
move palace (the sooner the better)

Now I suggested that we OB with Izzy to do some scouting and connect us to the trade route. Also up north there seems to be a continuation of the landmass and might lead to more civs. We should check that out.

 

[Cosmichail]

Alpha vs Pottery - Having Alphabet will allow us to "see" Izzy's techs and we can very easily (I'd assume) get Pottery from her in one of our first trades.

Totally agree.

 

[bobrath]

Alpha vs Pottery - Having Alphabet will allow us to "see" Izzy's techs and we can very easily (I'd assume) get Pottery from her in one of our first trades. Course Alpha is a wee bit more expensive...

Stealth edit

 

[pigswill]

The maths are going to be the same whenever we jump. It'll take time to build a palace anyway; hopefully enough time for courthouses in Kyoto and Moo Rock. Advantage of moving palace is that we can expand on main island with much lower maintenance costs. We could colonise to get up to limits for FP in Osaka but that would cost us a fortune short-term and probably nerf research completly.
Another factor I've been considering is that we've explored very little of the world and it's likely that we'll find another tasty location for FP in the future.
Tech wise I'd go for pottery first; helps humungously with whipping.

 

[Cosmichail]

Just a wee bit.... Bob do you think TGL is still doable?

 

[bobrath]

I'm ashamed to admit that in most of my games I don't got for TGL and so I don't have a real good "clock" for it.

Sorry!

 

[eektor]

I think settling the cow city is fine too.

Also, I think going for Alphabet is better in the long run so we can trade for Pottery and other techs we need.

 

[namliaM]

I'm still not 100% sold on stone island btw. I just don't see the growth happening fast enough to justify the additional cost. For the first ten turns it will be on minimal growth since the whales are out of cultural reach. Even once the whales are in reach, they're only 1 extra food on an ocean tile... Yes a workboat will allow stone city to jump up the hammer costs, but we're really staring at a *very* slow growth city there. Slow growth in our current economy results in a net drain.

That is true we need some turns to grow to size 4.... Upon founding cost will be 1 gold, income will be 2 of the coast, 1 City Center and 1 trade route. Only if the maintenance cost of the other cities increase does it make a net loss at this point.

Alpha vs Pottery - Having Alphabet will allow us to "see" Izzy's techs and we can very easily (I'd assume) get Pottery from her in one of our first trades. Course Alpha is a wee bit more expensive...

And once CoL is in we will be building Courthouses, so Granaries will be put on hold anyway...

Also question NamliaM you are aware there is no trade route with Izzy unless you did play somewhat and connect us. So how would you know what she has? (according to trade screen we are not connected).

No no turns in yet. But I thought that since we are on the river, river on the coast. Isa having coastal cities... We would be connected... maybe our capitol needs to be connected? Uhm ...

Now I suggested that we OB with Izzy to do some scouting and connect us to the trade route. Also up north there seems to be a continuation of the landmass and might lead to more civs. We should check that out.

I dont think there is any land left up north, AIs dont like settling in Jungle... she started right away, I think this means no more land...

Question, What should I do, should the borders of spain grow to include the copper we can see?

settle CoR, get courthouses, scout out Isa, start Palace, techs: CoL=>CS=>Alpha. *aye*

 

[pigswill]

If we keep the same religion and don't fall completly behind in power we should have some leeway with Bella. If we go to war first then we'll be looking at either maintaining an expensive bunch of spanish cities or razing them and spawning barbs again.
If Bella does have iron and horses then copper is of course irrelevant so OB/scouting becomes more a priority.
So my take would be switch palace etc before war.

 

[bobrath]

at this point I'll be happy with some turns getting played!!

 

[Cosmichail]

me too.

Not much we can do right now if Izzy's borders expands to get the copper.