SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

[Cosmichail]

Looked at the Kyoto again.

7 pop to whip stonehenge.
Here's what I think we could do to speed it up.
1. Move wb to work fish and grow to 5 fast
2. take a citizen off for one hammer and SH due in 45 turns
3. Once grown to 5 add another citizen to reduce to 30 turns
at this point still three resources will be worked and a 6th citizen will arrive soon.
Hopefully by then it will be whippable. It might cost big in citizen count but well worth getting the culture for both cities and GP for theology.

I think after IW we should then get those techs out of the way that will open up theology.

 

[bobrath]

You might want to try this in a test game to get the clicks right (use worldbuilder to get the same island setup), but you can switch from stonehenge to another unit (find the cheapest hammer one) and work a turn on it. Then whip that unit - overflow into Stonehenge. Hard part is getting the cheap unit to have enough overflow to make it worth it.

I'm not sure I understand the drive to IW. Swords won't help us against barbs in the short term (as the don't have cities yet). Yes we need iron for Samurai, but that's more then a few years off.

In our island nation, until we know there aren't coastal waters just out of sight, we can't be sure that Barb Galleys won't pop up. The border expansion will clear this up quite a bit tho.

 

[pigswill]

Re barb galleys:we can cross ocean tiles in our culture borders but can barb galleys repeat this trick? If not then our nets are pretty safe.
Agree re IW/Swords; not a priority imho.

 

[bobrath]

Good catch pigswill! I have no way of being certain since barbarians don't have cultural borders (afaik), but other civs can't cross ocean tiles without cultural border. So my money would be on our nets being safe.

So the research for Sailing isn't essential anymore...

Meditation=>Priesthood=>Writing ???

 

[Cosmichail]

T1

Lots of barb activity which is in the turnlog in the spoiler so I won't repeat it all. Decide to continue with AH because of beakers invested since sailing is 13 turns. Move wkr to mine gems.
Move workboat to Kyoto.

T2

Upgrade city archer to CD1.
Wb works fish at Kyoto growth in 3 turns
SH due in 45 turns with one citizen

T3

We loose the scout. (surprise attack)

T4

Move archer to protect gems
Judaism is founded

T5

Archer stops warrior from getting to gems

T6

Cap is 5 at Kyoto but we have one unhappy from whipping. Growth now in 8 turns.

T7

zzzzzzzzz

T8

Archer promoted with combat. (on gems)

T9

AH discovered start Sailing
archer attacks warrior before pillaging gems

T10

Finish second gem mine

T11

Osaka finishes archer
Start settler but will queue if we are in trouble. Hooking up sheep now for growth.

T12

Two archers approaching
Warrior on FH takes out archer

T13

Archers protecting both gems now.

T14

A major barbarian offensive arrives.... 3 archers and 1 warrior. We will loose one gem mine. Change build to archer again queue settler.
Kyoto one unhappy 2 citizens for hammers lots of food.

Here we loose a warrior and one archer due to onslaught.

Strange how it is as soon as we have two gems hooked up they show up in droves.

T15

Archer attacks looses and we loose one gem mine.

T16

Barbs are really hurting us and axes sooner than later would be nice. Also loose warrior on hill but odds were good in our favor.
SH due in 23 turns 5 pop needed to whip 3 avail.

T17

Osaka now will grow in 2 turns with sheep farm.

T18

Move wkr to mine gems again.

T19

Two barb warriors approach

T20

Archer on gems combat2 now.
Archer in city CD2 now.
Only one barb archer approaching from Southeast.
We need 4 pop to whip SH but have 3 avail so in a few turns should be whippable. I thought about building something whipping it but didn't want to loose the time invested to build it. It shouldn't be long we have enough hammers to whip SH. It was 5 pop only a few turns ago so I surmise (haven't worked this out) will be whippable in 3 or 4 turns.

Maybe the next guy can do more with this.

There is a settler queued but I would build another archer just to be safe. Archers are building faster now too with extra citizen in Osaka.

As to IW well if this onslaught stays with us we need to get axes. Trying to get a settler out with 4 barbs showing up at all once (especially when we have both gems hooked up) means we need something stronger. As small as our fat cross is I feel that Iron is likely to be closer by than copper. I thought about chopping one of those forest but we should keep them for defensive purposes until barbs have subsided.

Saved game

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2200 BC to 1600 BC:

Turn 60, 2200 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (3.40)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 60, 2200 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 60, 2200 BC: VQ Black's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 61, 2170 BC: VQ Black's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Scout (1.51)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Combat Odds: 77.7%
Turn 62, 2140 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 22 (76/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 22 (54/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 22 (32/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 22 (10/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 62, 2140 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated VQ Black's Scout!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (1.62) vs VQ Black's Archer (3.75)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 64, 2080 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (47/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (20/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (2.74)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Combat Odds: 15.8%
Turn 66, 2020 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (71/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (55/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (39/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (23/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (7/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 66, 2020 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (4.90)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 67, 1990 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 67, 1990 BC: VQ Black's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 69, 1930 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 69, 1930 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 70, 1900 BC: VQ Black's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (4.40)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Combat Odds: 13.4%
Turn 71, 1870 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 71, 1870 BC: VQ Black's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (3.00)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.35)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Combat Odds: 10.9%
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (2.40)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Combat Odds: 84.2%
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 21 (59/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 21 (38/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 21 (17/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated VQ Black's Archer!
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (0.96)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 73, 1810 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 27 (17/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 73, 1810 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated VQ Black's Warrior!

Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer (2.58) vs VQ Black's Archer (6.45)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (57/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (28/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 74, 1780 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.40)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 84.2%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (53/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (33/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (13/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of Kyoto have expanded!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Warrior (2.04)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Combat Odds: 62.6%
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 17 (43/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 17 (26/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 17 (9/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: VQ Black's Warrior is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated VQ Black's Warrior!

Turn 77, 1690 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (1.43) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.36)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (35/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (5/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 12 (79/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 78, 1660 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!

Turn 79, 1630 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 79, 1630 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.65)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Combat Odds: 4.9%
Turn 79, 1630 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (79/100HP)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 79, 1630 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 79, 1630 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!

 

[namliaM]

Our capital will pop its borders again in 15/16 turns, so that will more fully explore our surroundings.

I dont think it will... Borders dont expand "well" across water

I'd agree that Sailing should be our next tech, but stopping research on AH is a double edged sword. If we can be sure that we've got 20ish turns until Barb Galleys, then I'd say finish off AH, otherwise we need to protect those nets as they're the only thing that makes our capital productive.

If those Islands are nothing but islands... There will be no barb galleys... I have never seen them spawn, but have seen them appear from cities....
No city will spawn on those islands as they are out of the fog, hence no Galleys?!

Ok this is "I Got it". Looked at the save and yep lots of barbies but for now mostly warriors. Why are we worried about galley barbs for Kyoto unless they are coming from those islands otherwise how will they get there. Is the WB there to explore. Shouldn't he now add to the food bank as such. We would then grow real quick to 6 as outlined by NamliaM.

Yes yes yes... And whip a warrior while you are at it see my post here

As to the mainland I feel after the archer we should attempt to get a settler out. Maybe one with two archers go the long way around avoiding barbs and settle. If we want axes quick we can settle on top of the copper but will look for the most optimal spot.

I would want atleast 2 archers per city to be a bit more secure... even 3 for Osaka probably... Also remember settling any new city will add >8 maintenance to our costs....

@Cosmicichail: You allmost have it right I think...
You cannot part whip something, thats why you have the warrior (cheapest usefull unit around) whip. You put 1 or 2 turns into a warrior (IIRC 22 or something hammers to produce) and whip for 45 hammers, creating a 20+ hammer overflow which will go to the Hedge...
Kyoto is not about CoPs, but rather about GROW GROW GROW for the whip of the warrior (1 pop) and the 3 pop whip of 'Hedge....

I'm not sure I understand the drive to IW. Swords won't help us against barbs in the short term (as the don't have cities yet). Yes we need iron for Samurai, but that's more then a few years off.

IIRC one can build Axe with Iron as well...
Confirmed: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/ Axemen are buildable with Iron as well... And Axe'' will help with the barb Axe'...

Sailing = Galleys = 2 new cities with LOW upkeep on those 2 islands... 1 We allready know will be fruitfull, with the Cow and a water resource...

AH => Sailing => Writing... The earlier we can get those 2 cities up, the more profitable they will be... and Writing fast cause the Lib will ad some nice beakers....

Good luck when you play, you may just need it with them barbs ....

 

[Cosmichail]

Roster

bobrath -- Black Leader -- just played
namliaM -- started us nicely
Cosmichail --> just played --> Let's play kill the barbies
Pigswill --> UP --> Will he have set up the third city or start war??
LuvtoBuild -->on deck --> A complete warmonger at heart so must love the barbs
eektor --> --> you get to fight the barbies


The saying that too much information is just as bad as having too little. Well it is the case here. One minute get sailing next don't. Personally I would have never gone for that and proceeded to "writing" first to get libraries for culture science expansion. AH opens that up I think. Then we can go for religious techs for GP who is probably 25 turns away once SH is whipped which should be doable in about 3 or 4 turns. When we pop the border the barbs will be further away too giving us some breathing room.

I just looked and it's available so I say let's get that first for the culture/science and think about our tactical situation whether we need to get to iron or sneak out a settler before Izzy. There is another copper site south of us quite a ways away but if we loose the first copper site that's a consideration.

 

[bobrath]

AH does open up Writing. It comes with pottery, AH, or ... one other tech not sure which.

I appreciate that an iron resource would allow us to build axes... but how giving will TPTB really be?

Researching sailing isn't a total wash for the reasons given above. A city on cow/clam island will certainly turn into another wonderful city of whipping for us. Dunno that I'd found on the stone tho, nothing really to help that city grow unless we have it steal food resources...

 

[bobrath]

Metagame chat:
From the culture graphs, it looks as if CFR got an early wonder (massive ramp in culture). Will be interesting to see how they worked their start.

I don't think VQ Red lost a city, since their power didn't make a dip, not sure what would cause a drop in score but not power, at least at this early stage in the game.

 

[pigswill]

Got it. Build/whip archer with overflow on settler in Osaka. I'm not optimistic about oracle, Izzy's got a religion we can pinch later, so maybe writing for library and GS in Kyoto. Maybe sailing and galley first to get some exploring done. I'll probably wait 12 hours before playing so comments welcome.

 

[bobrath]

I think writing for the library is a good idea as that will help our research rate on CoL (if we can't pull off the Oracle).

Although... we could attempt to whip overflow our way to the Oracle as well, just means we need to beeline for priesthood.

Exploring with a galley isn'rt real essential right now and remember that galley increases our unit count which might kick our treasury down a notch.

 

[pigswill]

Agree its not essential. I'm being optimistic and assuming that there may be a coastal route between Kyoto and Osaka island.

 

[namliaM]

AH does open up Writing. It comes with pottery, AH, or ... one other tech not sure which.

I appreciate that an iron resource would allow us to build axes... but how giving will TPTB really be?

Researching sailing isn't a total wash for the reasons given above. A city on cow/clam island will certainly turn into another wonderful city of whipping for us. Dunno that I'd found on the stone tho, nothing really to help that city grow unless we have it steal food resources...

Iron=> Well you never know... IF this is indeed the OASIS that I was thinking about before the game (it seems to be with the gems and gold), it would fit the bill... IW = Chopping Jungle (primarily at this point, since we are not warring yet). We have no Jungle so it wouldnt be a priority... but... what if we do find Iron? Even within reach of Osaka? Would that be a nice break? I mean beeing able to start some Axe' would be a big deal vs the barbs ....

TPTB giving? Never... But ... We have -8 maintenance and there has to be something right ( I hope )

Metagame chat:
From the culture graphs, it looks as if CFR got an early wonder (massive ramp in culture). Will be interesting to see how they worked their start.

I don't think VQ Red lost a city, since their power didn't make a dip, not sure what would cause a drop in score but not power, at least at this early stage in the game.

CFR, more likely the got an early religion.... Dont know about Reds... City seems unlikely... Massive whipping? Expensive tech research? Settler building? A couple of things can cause a drop of score... Anyway we have to wait and see I guess...

Although... we could attempt to whip overflow our way to the Oracle as well, just means we need to beeline for priesthood.

Exploring with a galley isn'rt real essential right now and remember that galley increases our unit count which might kick our treasury down a notch.

Well we need something to whip overflow with... a couple of options:
1) Lib, big whip but might be worth it
2) Warrior, but I think we should whip one for the 'Hedge allready....
3) Galley, usefull for transporting a settler for a new city with LOW maintenance.... And a lot? of whip production....
4) Workboat, which is 45 hammers = 1 pop whip = no real gain...

And we can allways disband any "extra" units that we end up not needing in Kyoto ....

 

[bobrath]

Obviously STICK will whip everything it ever creates from here on out (just need to manage the happy quotient). So about every 15 turns, we need to plan on the whip coming out, if that means switching work on turn 14 so that there are token hammers into whatever we're going to overflow from (or sooner if we need to push to some hammer breakpoint).

Re: Iron... That's an expensive tech in terms of beakers. Is the risk of lost time on other techs worth it? I'm not sure, hopefully others have thoughts. If we can get a city on the eastern copper, then the point is moot I suspect. BTW, I'm ok with settling on the copper for our third city. Its not even close to the best site (as it would miss on the fish), but if making sure we have axes (and spears?) is important because of barb activity... well I'm willing to give up optimal in favor of survival.

Lets just make sure our archers get Shock promotions after they get Combat. Oh and a medic might be nice in Osaka.

 

[LuvToBuild]

I'd agree that Sailing should be our next tech, but stopping research on AH is a double edged sword. If we can be sure that we've got 20ish turns until Barb Galleys, then I'd say finish off AH, otherwise we need to protect those nets as they're the only thing that makes our capital productive.

I failed to notice we were already researching AH at the time of my posting so in hindsight, I was You guys were right to just go ahead and finish off AH and get us closer to Writing. As for Sailing, I was a little there too since I didn't think about the fact the barb galleys probably can't get to our nets through those ocean tiles, assuming any even spawn near Kyoto. But Sailing does give us galleys that we can use to start colonies near Kyoto, if that's what we want to do. We will have to be careful though since it will increase Osaka's maintenance, possibly quite a bit.

The saying that too much information is just as bad as having too little. Well it is the case here. One minute get sailing next don't. Personally I would have never gone for that and proceeded to "writing" first to get libraries for culture science expansion. AH opens that up I think. Then we can go for religious techs for GP who is probably 25 turns away once SH is whipped which should be doable in about 3 or 4 turns.

Now why would you ever listen to me anyway. Ain't you figured out by now that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about? Anyway, I don't think it's hurt us or anything but Writing or Meditation=>Priesthood might have been a better choice. I'm just a nervous nelly, worried about everything (Barbs!Barbs! AHHH!!)

I'm not sure about the importance of IW. I'm kind of on the fence. It would be good to have but it is expensive and I don't think barb axemen will show up for a little while yet. However, it would be nice to have one or two for protecting the Gems against barb archers.

As for the competition, we seem to be doing well in the charts so I hope we can keep that up and surpass the others. CFR certainly seems to be the team to beat right now. I'm willing to bet they went for SH in Kyoto too but managed to whip it already.

 

[bobrath]

Looking forward to pigswill's turns as (I'm hoping) he should have played by now if his previous 12 hour request was spot on.

Early religion founding would be tough with what appears to be two AIs getting the Bud/Hind pair (and judaism soon after). Especially with Tok having to research Myst first.

We took a pretty direct line to Stonehenge, sure we did the detour for Archery, but would that account for the difference? Not sure. Again will be intresting to go read other threads, but only after we complete our conquest!!

 

[Cosmichail]

hmmmm me too. Hope that stonehenge worked out. If we get that then maybe we can become Christians or perhaps you want him for CS. I like the CS idea but we'll need COL first and don't research masonry. Having a religion though really helps with the happiness. We might be able to get COL still (not sure since I haven't looked of recent whether it's been founded or not) As you said we missed the boat on Budd/Hind/Judaism. COL usually follows. If we put up some GS we can try for philosophy to or just use him for academy.

Getting a library in Osaka will really help getting the borders popped.

Are we considering the TGL at all. I really like that wonder for upping the science but we lack marble and a lot of production. Perhaps the next city will have more should we make it to copper site.

 

[namliaM]

Hmz, in hinde sight I may just go Mining => Myst or something, but hey... things are as they are...

Sailing is important for a couple of reasons...
1) Settle 2 Cheap new cities with 1 atleast good whip but both good science
2) Better science IF we can claim the Colossus...
3) I think... uhm... Lets hypothosize... with this setup on raging barbs... and we are TPTB...
With the RNG and people... well some people take chances... and it is SGOTM... I am willing to bet money that Kyoto will end up not beeing as isolated as we currently think... At first we think that Kyoto had only ocean, now... we know otherwize... Suppose some people have bad luck on RNG and lose Osaka to the barb warriors... Well I think those people still have a shot... A good setback maybe, but still a shot... Maybe they even have a advantage in some way cause they lose the -8 maintenance....
I bet there is more land out there for us to find... Therefor we need to go Island hopping + Sailing is relatively cheap if we found the 2 cities that will earn back those beakers real quick...
4) Trading on Coast, if we can find the shore of our entire lands we dont have to hook up any coastal cities by road... This connection is a bit weak and dangerous to our worker with barbs out there.

If Kyoto is at its happy cap I would like to start 2 settlers and a worker in anticipation of Sailing... Dont let there be any unhappies, unless we want to whip...
On normal speed sailing is 100 beakers * 1.5 = 150 the cities have a happy cap at 4. So 4 coastal tiles + CC = 9 commerce -1 or 2 upkeep = say 5 beakers each... Thats 10 beakers... 15 turns we have our investment in sailing and start making a 'profit'...
+ HR is our friend, whip a warrior for +1 upkeep and gain 2 commerce? I want HR bad... (Pyramids? => No way we can build it... )

STICK... Oh wait that was something about the capitol... *checks back* ah...

single-tile-island-city-kyoto (STICK)

 

[bobrath]

My guess (intent) is to get Izzy's religion. I'm not too intent on founding our own as much as getting one eventually. If we can get Izzy's religion, then that gives us a little breathing room with Kyoto.

Sailing does make sense, but it was more a question of which need are we filling first? All good, and will make more sense (I hope) with the upcoming turns.

 

[pigswill]

Not a complete post but an update: Stonehenge completed in Kyoto in 1450bc (turn 5). Started researching polytheism to head towards oracle but havingserious doubts: I don't think we'll get oracle, unhappy whipping is becoming a problem for Kyoto; so I might go for writing instead to get library for 2 scientists and GS (actually GS/prophet mix) and stop pop exploding completly until Kyoto's happier.
I must admit that I've been playing a shadow of Sisiutil's latest ALC game so I'm kind of into that at the moment but having checked the thread I could sense some interest in events.