SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[DynamicSpirit]

More to think about. Also I just had a look at the game and didn't realize Moscow is heads above Coppertownski in hammer production and if maxed can create the Hag in 24 turns. (it seems to take 850H epic) There are also 3 forrests to chop. I think you really pay apenalty if you rush a wonder-something like double. Coppertownski will take closer to 40 turns with only 1 chop available. I would vote to start the Hag in Moscow and chop it to death +-20 turns plus 2turns anarchy (which ever religious civic we take) one more for caste I think.

Actually the reason Moscow is currently above Cski is that Cski is currently working commerce rather than hammer tiles However, I've just done some jiggling and I think you are still correct that Moscow should build the Hagia Sophia, since by jiggling tiles we can get Moscow's max production up higher than Cski's max. To do that we will need to take the forest tiles off of St P and New Novgorod, and build I think at least one workshop over one of the cottages.

(EDIT: Oh, and adopting bureaucracy will up Moscow's production instantly)

 

[Dagnabit]

One aspect of taking a religion that is a pain is having to start trucking as many missionaries as we can afford to possible converts. I don't know how effective this is nor whether we have the ability. A secondary concern is we open ourselves up to getting decared on by a crazy AI. A positive is it may make it easier to work towards defense pacts and permanent alliances ( which I think will be in play at the end)

 

[Dagnabit]

(EDIT: Oh, and adopting bureaucracy will up Moscow's production instantly)

good point missed the production bonus.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One aspect of taking a religion that is a pain is having to start trucking as many missionaries as we can afford to possible converts. I don't know how effective this is nor whether we have the ability. A secondary concern is we open ourselves up to getting decared on by a crazy AI. A positive is it may make it easier to work towards defense pacts and permanent alliances ( which I think will be in play at the end)

Unless we're planning on trying to convert other civs, the only missionary we'd need will be for Athens.

By adopting Christianity we make it less likely that Christian civs will declare war on us and more likely that non-Christian civs will declare war on us. Since the only warmongerish civ geographically in a position to do us serious damage in a war is Caesar, and he's Christian, that looks like a + on the security side to me.

 

[Dagnabit]

Unless we're planning on trying to convert other civs, the only missionary we'd need will be for Athens.

By adopting Christianity we make it less likely that Christian civs will declare war on us and more likely that non-Christian civs will declare war on us. Since the only warmongerish civ geographically in a position to do us serious damage in a war is Caesar, and he's Christian, that looks like a + on the security side to me.

True but we can't possibly win a UN vote with just 4 of us. I haven't played that many diplo games to begin with and 18 AIs is mind boggling . I just pretend to ignore them all and maybe they will go away

 

[DynamicSpirit]

True but we can't possibly win a UN vote with just 4 of us. I haven't played that many diplo games to begin with and 18 AIs is mind boggling . I just pretend to ignore them all and maybe they will go away

Ummm, that's why I said this earlier :

but we can always go back to free religion nearer the diplo vote.

(Any religion negatives disappear instantly you deconvert. The only thing that could last is if -ve relations from the religion meant they'd been refusing to trade with us and hence hadn't built up +ve's from that.)

 

[Dagnabit]

As a lurker in the first 2 SGOTMs I saw many instances of teams giving token gifts of $ that seemed to keep a roudy in check ( before he came demanding). Does that work getting closer to the UN to get +s or is it just a short term placation?

 

[Dagnabit]

(Any religion negatives disappear instantly you deconvert. The only thing that could last is if -ve relations from the religion meant they'd been refusing to trade with us and hence hadn't built up +ve's from that.)

Another pearl found! And a broken record: "I didn't know that."

 

[Dagnabit]

Simon@ Congrats- just noticed 800 posts! (You prolific devil you!)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Bloody 'eck. Do I have that little a life...?

Now for the dilemma. If I submit any more posts, it won't be a nice round 800 any more. I guess I'd better stop posting.

Ooops, too late, it's 801.

 

[Dagnabit]

Bloody 'eck. Do I have that little a life...?

Now for the dilemma. If I submit any more posts, it won't be a nice round 800 any more. I guess I'd better stop posting.

Ooops, too late, it's 801.

I will make it a point to mourn your loss of virginity

 

[Sam_Yeager]

With all this talk of mass chopping can I just point out that this is likely to impact future production. Perhaps more to the point these trees won't be there when we want to build the UN. If we don't get a GE then chopping is the most likely route to build it. Difficult if the majority of trees have already been chopped.

 

[Htadus]

With all this talk of mass chopping can I just point out that this is likely to impact future production. Perhaps more to the point these trees won't be there when we want to build the UN. If we don't get a GE then chopping is the most likely route to build it. Difficult if the majority of trees have already been chopped.

I agree we should hold on it for that reason and in the interim it will give hammers when we need extra. Replacement parts also make it more useful in the longrun with lumbermills. We should preserve some forests.

 

[markh]

My internet connection at home is broken and my provider will try to fix it on Friday only, so I have no access to the save to have a look.

Sounds good.

I agree on the trades. We got the free tech, so no need not to trade.

On the other things I cannot really comment without looking at the save.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Can I suggest that it may be worth waiting to see the effect of Printing Press on our income before we decide to whether to convert to Free Religion or Christianity.

 

[Dagnabit]

Can I suggest that it may be worth waiting to see the effect of Printing Press on our income before we decide to whether to convert to Free Religion or Christianity.

Certainly we can delay changing the civic but what criteria would you use to measure effect and decide? One of the reasons Simon offered was to Keep Julius from getting antsy and getting Vicki to trade. I don't know how to measure that against pure %increase in research or + happiness. My original thought on Free Religion was because many of our cities were running up against happiness limit. The 10% research bonus was desert. That said I can see Simon's points as well. Any thoughts on how to decide which way to go (if either) if we wait a few turns before changing the civic?

 

[Dagnabit]

With all this talk of mass chopping can I just point out that this is likely to impact future production. Perhaps more to the point these trees won't be there when we want to build the UN. If we don't get a GE then chopping is the most likely route to build it. Difficult if the majority of trees have already been chopped.

I agree we should hold on it for that reason and in the interim it will give hammers when we need extra. Replacement parts also make it more useful in the longrun with lumbermills. We should preserve some forests.

The chopping was presented because an urgency was suggested by Thrallia in getting the Hagia Sophia. I can certainly hold off for later if 3-4 turns doesn't seem like a Wonder breaker

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Certainly we can delay changing the civic but what criteria would you use to measure effect and decide? One of the reasons Simon offered was to Keep Julius from getting antsy and getting Vicki to trade. I don't know how to measure that against pure %increase in research or + happiness. My original thought on Free Religion was because many of our cities were running up against happiness limit. The 10% research bonus was desert. That said I can see Simon's points as well. Any thoughts on how to decide which way to go (if either) if we wait a few turns before changing the civic?

The primary reason that DynamicSpirit gave for this option was

I'm going to make a really radical suggestion. Rather than adopt free religion, we convert to Christianity and adopt pacifism.

Why? We need a lot more great scientists. We're facing an uphill tech struggle: At 50% research (not quite sustainable yet) scientific method is showing up at 29 turns, physics 57 turns, electricity 64 turns! We'll never win the laurels at those kinds of rates, even allowing for them going down a bit as cottages mature. But great scientists will lightbulb all three techs (electricity: Only if we avoid discovering gunpowder first).

As such I would like to see what the impact of Printing Press is on research. As our research at present is hampered by losing the benefit of Colossus we're not getting a true picture of what we can achieve with our research. Principally I want to avoid unnecessary periods of anarchy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If I counted correctly that we have 7 villages/towns, then the immediate effect of printing press will be to add 7 to our commerce. That will leave our sustainable science rate roughly the same as now - between 40% and 50%, just slightly nearer to 50%.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

If I counted correctly that we have 7 villages/towns, then the immediate effect of printing press will be to add 7 to our commerce. That will leave our sustainable science rate roughly the same as now - between 40% and 50%, just slightly nearer to 50%.

I think it's up to 10 now but that doesn't really affect the numbers too much. Interesting to note that Radio will take 44 turns at our current 100% rate. Of course the other thing that's affecting our gold is the war. That's 6 gold alone in SP. The sooner we're at peace the better.