SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

That is right, thanks for thumbs-up and good luck to you too. I'll be looking forward to a "GS born in Maryland" notice :gp:
GS was an assumption (could be an English PhD, right - which might be more typical of old age PhDs: somthing in humanities), but a correct one. Mine is in epidemiology (hence all the false positive discussion in the reloading in GOTM thread). Topic is diabetes.

Maybe you assumed GS because mostly math/science types haunt this site? :lol: Well, maybe historians too, as that is Scout214's training.

Or maybe yours is in science as well, so GS seemed natural to say? What area are you pursuing?

And thanks for the good wishes!

dV
 
State Property - Removes the distance penalty only from the maintenance costs. Adds 1 food from workshops and watermills, (I don't think we have any of either). What are the alternatives? Free Market adds 1 trade route to all cities. Mercantalism adds 1 free specialist per city but allows no foreign trade routes, I usually only run it in conjunction with Representation to compound the effects of the specialist (3 beakers per), as the loss of the trade routes seems to hurt the economy some. FP and Versailles will always reduce maintenance costs!

Re. FP & Versailles: I wasn't sure, so I asked about it in the strategy forum. I got a reply from a well-known poster in these forums which I quote here.

I am all for Free Markets in our present situation (re. # cities). But if we intend on taking Hattie/MM/Vicky etc. keeping all their cities, I am pretty sure SP will be much better for our economy. When it becomes available, that is.

Btw I think we should be cautious and avoid changing civics too much, as we're not Spiritual.

Other than that, I think we're ready to rumble. :goodjob: Go get them, Ronnie1! :spank:
 
I'll be be playing the turns Saturday, I'm taking my wife on a date tonight w/o the kids. ;) Please post all last minute strategy ideas and I'll pick them up before I play. As it stands right now, it looks like I'm just going to build troops and infrastructure and keep the civics as they are. I assume we're working towards an invasion of Egypt before we go for any DP's. Research will be Gunpowder after MT and I've got the GS issue in Moscow and Rostov. I'll also try to get Eng and Guilds for as little as possible and hopefully pick up some gold so we can keep the research rate up. Am I forgetting anything??
 
Scout Hatty with the caravel, of course ... she has more power than we do so her stacks may surprise us and require that we bring a few Cossacks for the assault.

And, you might want to take a screenshot (or printout) of the diplo relations screen at the start, to refer to when you get a tribute demand. That area of the game is getting interesting now ...

If you have to choose between Mao and Capac with some diplomatic move, do you know which one you will favor? Maybe Capac since he is already friendly, and might be willing to war on Hatty?

Otherwise, go for it, and have fun tonight!

dV
 
@ ALL,
Not very eventful all in all. There were only a few demands and all but one came from a non-hindu, all were declined. We got 2 GS's that were used to get Scientific Method. We are 4 turns from Gunpowder at the current science rate but will not be able to maintain this pace for much longer. I don't quite understand why Hatties power curve is ahead of ours. From what I could see, she doesn't have that many units and nothing stronger than a Mace. I scouted the 2 cities on her western coast. They are garrisoned as follows; the northern city of Gao has 2 Longbows @ CG1, Horse Archers @ C2, Horse Archers@ C1, an Axe and an Archer, and a Mace on the Iron mine. The southern city of Heliopolis has a Longbow @ CG1, 2 Longbows, a Chariot, a Spear, and an Archer.
She also has a stack that is poised to attack her one time city of Elephantine that consists of 5 Horse Archers, 2 Crossbows, Sword, Cat, Axe, and 2 Chariots.
We may not need to ask Capac to join us, he may ask us to join him soon! :D
But if we do want to ask him, he will join for Music I believe. He is also fourth in score now after the techs we traded to him.

I did not pop rush anything during my turns, but we have some things under construction now that we may want to use the whip on. The Bank in Delhi stands out as 1 good candidate for a 50% gold boost.

Da Vinci may also want to review our current trades and see if we get anything extra from what we are currently getting. I failed to look into this during my turns.

That pretty much somes it up, the logistics and logs are below!

Edit
I just noticed that the session turn log shows that alot happened on turn #270. In actuality, I wrote most all the notes at the end of the turnset and just edited in the actual turn #'s for the appropriate actions.

The current roster order is;

Ronnie1 - just played :cool:
da_Vinci - UP NOW :D
C63 - on deck :cool:
Joemama - in the hole :scan:
Scout214 - waiting :scan:

Igelkott - Temporary Leave of Absence

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

The save is here

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_AD1280_01.Civ4SavedGame

The session turn log is here

Spoiler :
Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Traded Astronomy and Civil Service to Capac for Guilds and Engineering
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Louis XIV adopts Serfdom!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Louis XIV adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 261, 1226 AD: Cai Lun has been born in Kyoto!

Turn 262, 1232 AD: Hinduism has spread in Bombay.
Turn 262, 1232 AD: You have discovered Banking!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Traded Teology and Paper to Capac for Banking, WM and 70G
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Moscow!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Great Scientist has been born in London!

Turn 265, 1250 AD: Hinduism has spread in Rostov.
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Alexander adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 266, 1256 AD: Wang Xizhi has been born in Memphis!
Turn 266, 1256 AD: Frankfurt has been captured by the Aztec Empire!!!

Turn 267, 1262 AD: Louis XIV has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Delhi has grown to size 9
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Cuzco!

Turn 268, 1268 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 67 ? for Delhi.
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Isabella for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: You have discovered Military Tradition!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 14 on the next turn
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Madras will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Calcutta celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Bombay will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Tokugawa has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 269, 1274 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 67 ? for Delhi.
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Hinduism has spread in Yekaterinburg.
Turn 269, 1274 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 269, 1274 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 14
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Rostov!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Madras has grown to size 10
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Calcutta celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Bombay has grown to size 5
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Washington converts to Buddhism!

Turn 270, 1280 AD: The villagers have provided you with a Warrior!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Calcutta!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered a source of Oil near Rostov!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Cyrus Demanded Astronomy, I declined (Turn # 261)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Isabella demanded cancel deals with Toku, I declined (Turn # 262)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Great Scientist born Moscow (Turn # 263)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Louie demanded cancel deals with Fred, I declined (Turn # 265)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Fred asked to join war against Aztecs, I declined (Turn # 266)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Popped southern hut for warrior who was disbanded
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Great Scientist born in Rostov, used both to lightbulb Scientific Method


The auto log is here

Spoiler :
Turn 261 (1226 AD)
Novgorod begins: Longbowman
Delhi begins: Market
Rostov finishes: Forge
Yaroslavl' grows: 9
Madras finishes: Hindu Missionary

Turn 262 (1232 AD)
Rostov begins: University
Madras begins: Hindu Missionary
Hinduism has spread: Bombay
Tech learned: Banking
Great Scientist born in Moscow
Novgorod finishes: Longbowman
Yekaterinburg finishes: Galleon
Madras grows: 9

Turn 263 (1238 AD)
Novgorod begins: Hindu Missionary
Yekaterinburg begins: University
Rostov begins: Observatory
Moscow finishes: Pikeman
Novgorod finishes: Hindu Missionary

Turn 264 (1244 AD)
Moscow begins: Observatory
Moscow begins: Market
Novgorod begins: Longbowman

Turn 265 (1250 AD)
Hinduism has spread: Rostov
St. Petersburg grows: 13
Rostov grows: 15
Calcutta grows: 10

Turn 266 (1256 AD)
St. Petersburg finishes: University
Novgorod finishes: Longbowman
Madras finishes: Hindu Missionary
Taoism has spread: Vilcas (Incan Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Frankfurt (German Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Frankfurt (Aztec Empire)

Turn 267 (1262 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Observatory
Novgorod begins: Catapult
Madras begins: Forge
Novgorod finishes: Catapult
Delhi grows: 9

Turn 268 (1268 AD)
Novgorod begins: Catapult
Tech learned: Military Tradition

Turn 269 (1274 AD)
Research begun: Gunpowder
Hinduism has spread: Yekaterinburg
Moscow finishes: Observatory
St. Petersburg grows: 14
Novgorod finishes: Catapult
Great Scientist born in Rostov
Madras grows: 10
Bombay grows: 5
Delhi finishes: Market
Taoism has spread: Bactra (Persian Empire)

Turn 270 (1280 AD)
Novgorod begins: Pikeman
Delhi begins: Bank
Novgorod begins: Pikeman
Delhi begins: Bank
Tribal village results: warrior
Tech learned: Scientific Method
 
We are 4 turns from Gunpowder at the current science rate but will not be able to maintain this pace for much longer.
Oh contraire! There is gold in them thar hills! Or at least in them thar treasuries! :D . Guilds is only 2242 flasks, and everyone wants it. Caesar has 360 gold, Cyrus 170, Toku 180, Alex 110, Monte 80. I'll have to be sure that we don't trade with the enemy of a friend, but there seems to be plenty of gold out there for us. And once we get down the road on physics research, we could start trading printing press if we had to, but I suspect that nationalism would be another attractive tech to the AI. But maybe we hoard that as it leads to Mil Trad and DP.

She also has a stack that is poised to attack her one time city of Elephantine that consists of 5 Horse Archers, 2 Crossbows, Sword, Cat, Axe, and 2 Chariots. We may not need to ask Capac to join us, he may ask us to join him soon! :D But if we do want to ask him, he will join for Music I believe. He is also fourth in score now after the techs we traded to him.
I have never gone the diplo win route, so lots I don't know: is there a difference between whether we ask Capac or he asks us?

I did not pop rush anything during my turns, but we have some things under construction now that we may want to use the whip on. The Bank in Delhi stands out as 1 good candidate for a 50% gold boost.
Bank in Delhi would take 7 pop to rush now :eek: so I don't see a whip any time soon. If I pull the cits off the hills and work the farms, and pull the engineer to the cottage, I can go +10 food, and grow every 3 instead of every 6, and be back on both hills in 6 turns at +8 food for only a small loss of hammers, and extra pop to rush that bank eventually.

Once we can build it, Oxford U is 12 turns in Moscow. Need three more universities, two are under construction. Where to build a third, since Dehli is busy with the bank? Yaros finishes forge this turn, pre forge university is a 20 turn build, figure 15 post forge, 5 pop to rush immediately. So I could have Oxford under construction at the end of my turns if I can rush U in Rostov (2 pop to rush now, but I would wait) and in Yaros about 8 turns in.

Yekat is suffering cultural pressure from Caesar. We have lost two tiles in the fat cross. I think I will pop rush the University, build a theatre and run some artists to push him back, unless that is a diplomatic no-no (is it?).

Any reason why we are building a market in Moscow? With gold avail in trade, science slider will be high forever, and now Moscow only produces 4 gold at the moment, so +25% is just one more? We have no hammers in invested, so I would change to making troops, or maybe a temple to let us run a priest (adds a hammer and some gold). Also, I think I will pull the engineer to one of the farms (pop in 3 instead of 6), put new pop on the other 3 food farm, and then we can grow back to about 3 or 4 specialists.

Thought a mace in Moscow, promoted as an anti-melee unit, might make a good escort for the Egypt stack to fend off melee counterattacks, esp pikes going for our Cossacks (not that the pikes would win, but why let the Cossack take the damage? but who would the battle AI put up to fight?)

On troops: We have 3 swords in India ... any point to moving them towards Egypt? I'm happy leaving the axes where they are, as we have maces and coming soon, to a battlefield near you ... Cossacks!! :D

Upgrades. With all the cash I can get for guilds, do we want to upgrade any units? Galley to Galleon is 155 gold, but might be worth upgrading the two that are with our two Galleons, to speed up the sealift. Also, we have three swords with experience 7, 9, and 10, also a 155 gold upgrade. They are all in India, so unless we plan to bring them to Egypt, maybe no point.

However, I can rush a Barracks in Bombay, a forge in Madras, build a few longbows and that will free the swords for Egypt, so unless someone can talk me out of it, they are moving east. Maybe upgrade the two galleys (see why below), and then later, if we are flush with cash, some of the swords.

Da Vinci may also want to review our current trades and see if we get anything extra from what we are currently getting. I failed to look into this during my turns.
Do you mean renegotiate existing trades? How does that work? If I have to cancel and then redo, is that a diplomatic problem? I would not want to upset the pretty rosy diplomatic cart that we currently have.

Boy am I itching to play this turn. Unless Hatty and Capac get into it and we are invited, I think I would wait to get a couple of Cossacks out before attacking. With Cossacks, you just use the cats to take down defenses, and no collateral damage sacrifices are required: the Cossacks just kill whatever is in there. The cats don't even have to heal to do that job! Think how fast conquest goes under that circumstance! :goodjob: The warring fun might just be left to C63, however.

I would like to get Thebes (on a plain) as soon as possible, to run representation. Gao is on a hill, a tougher take, so do we agree, straight for thebes with a force of 12 (four galleons, so we do the two galley promotions), land on the the hill and bombs away.

What do folks think about splitting stacks, to reduce the effect of catapult counterattacks? I think that a stack of 6 on the hill and a stack of 6 in the forest is the way to siege Thebes. It is pretty important to do after railroads, maybe not so critical with just roads?

Respond quickly ... can't ... wait ... much ... longer ... :lol: (I'll wait for some feedback, don't worry).

dV
 
Agent Tamborine reports that all of the oppostion that has played past 1 AD is below us in score as of their latest submission (compared to our score at that time) :goodjob: . In fact, several appear to be falling back to the pace set by footballguys, so perhaps they are not so much particularly lagging as we are particularly leading?

More interesting is the score of the pre AD oppostion. I suggest looking at the graph of us with those 5. Chokonuts and CFR-V are meaningfully higher circa 600 BC, but is that sustainable? Time will tell. Smurkz pulled ahead for a while, only to fall back at 100 BC. In fact, 100 BC may be the critical marker. If Chokonuts and CFR-V are not meaningfully ahead at 100 BC,then we are probably in good shape. Seems that most teams clustered together at that time, and that our pace since then has been hard to match.

Tamborine thinks that our war plans before 500 AD should not be declassified until all of our opposition has passed 1000 AD. :mischief: Unless we declassify in small chunks. No sense in revealing a strategy or tactic that an opponent might still be able to employ. :p Or our choice of diplo or space victory. Unless, of course, we can use disinformation ... (Oh Great Lurker, is that outside the spirit of the midgame spoiler? :lol: I suspect it might be.)

dV :king: reporting for AT :scan:
 
First of all, are we all reading the glance screen correctly in the foreign advisor? I was not until about a minute ago.

The row with Caesar's picture tells us what others think of Caesar, not what Caesar thinks of them. (I would rather it was the other way). So, while Khan is +3 pleased with Caesar, Caesar is -3 annoyed with Khan. In fact, Khan appears to be Caesar's worst enemy! :eek:

If I am right, then the worst enemies list (for PA candidates) is

Mao: Wash-2A, Hatty 0A, Izzy -1C
Capac: Wash-2A, Musa 0A, Hatty+1A
Caesar: Khan-3A, Musa-1A, Hatty-1A,
Toku: Izzy-10F(war) Hatty-4F, Musa-1A

Making Wash, Hatty, Izzy, Musa and Khan personna non gratta.

Hindu bretheren:

Cyrus: Khan-3A, Louis-1A, Capac 0A. Pleased+1 with Hatty!
Monte: Fred-5F(war), Wash-4F, Hatty-2F
Vicky: Louis-1A, Khan-1A, 0C with both Izzy and Musa. Pleased+1 with Hatty!
Saladin: Musa-2A, Hatty-2A, Izzy-1C
Alex: Hatty+2A, pleased or better with all others he knows (missing a lot).
Fred: Monte-12F(war), Louis-2A, Mao+4C

So caution trading with Fred and Louis as well?

Someone check and be sure I have read this right.

War with Hatty, will upset Cyrus and Vicky perhaps, so trade all I can with them now, before it hits.

So how can we ever set up a non-hindu opponent for the UN vote, if do to so we must trade with them, angering our Hindu brothers? It is either Izzy or Khan for an alternative religion opponent.

If we end up with a Hindu opponent, and a civ is friendly with both of us, how do they vote? Can we find out?

Also of note, Dom criteria are 51% land, 33% pop. Not a risk now, but a back door diplo play might trigger dom victory before we get enough votes if we are not careful. Votes are based on pop. We can get pop > 60% with land less than 50% if we have to.

In my GOTM 13, looks like I needed about 62% of votes for the win if I had gone diplo. All other resolutions look like simple majority.

dV
 
Well done Ronnie1!

I've just opened the save. Our situation is looking good. I'll try to address some of da Vinci's questions, but before that, just a minor complain: everyone seems to be forgetting to get Open Borders with Toku! Please do that 1st of all, dV! That alone might add us some +10 beakers/turn (from trade routes to his cities), besides the diplo bonus. Look at F2 (fin.adv) just before and after the deal.

Other ideas & answers to dV's question:
. trading away techs: sell just the cheaper ones (like Theology, Guilds) to the leaders willing to pay the most for them (+100gold). I guess that alone might allow us to keep running @ 90%~100% science.
. renegotiating trades: look at the trade resource screen. If there is gold available for trade it will show there. E.g. Toku has 3g to trade. If we cancel the current deal (clams for 3gold), it is likely we'll get 6 golds for those same clams. But again, try that just after opening borders! :crazyeye:
. also on resource trade: it looks like we can get ivory from Monty, giving him copper. Not something I'd do in every game ;) , but seems fine by me now.
. mid game spoiler: I'm with dV - if noone has already posted in it, why should we?
. diplo effect of inviting X accepting invitation to war: we usually have to spend when inviting (tech, map, gold). Other than that, not sure.
. upgrading: my views are no to galley/galleons (a new one is only 4 turns if build in Moskow, for instance - replacing the market build) but maybe to the promoted swords if we can replace them and send them to war in time.
. on building/whipping: I don't see the need to rush anything special, but I am all for whipping when working mediocre tiles or near happiness/health caps. Maybe whip building for which we have bonus (like Universities).
. OTOH I still miss more CH's. You should look at the F1 (Dom.Adv.) and spot the higher values in the column with the red circle - higher maintenance costs in those cities - they need CH's.
. military build: cossacks already have 50%+ vs mounted units. No need for pikemen I guess. Can we still build maces or it is musketmen from now on?
. Tech-wise: my suggestion is communism next, followed by Physics.
. Long term planning: the more our game evolves, the more I like the idea of teaming up with HC if running State Property still doesn't sweeten Mao's heart. :rolleyes: Also, backdoor diplo seems more and more likely. Too bad, frontdoor could lead us to a faster finish.
 
So if I cancel a deal, that does not carry a diplomatic hit? Or is the answer no as long as the same or better deal is in place when we leave the diplo screen? That is my only worry.

Cossacks are 50% bonus against cannon according to Civilopedia. Of course, Cossacks at 18 are almost +100% against everything else on the board until we face cavalry.

I tend to like combined arms stacks as that makes them defend well against everything sent to counterattack. But maybe Cossacks are so strong, that just Cossacks and Cats is the way to go.

I probably will finish the pike in Novgorod while I wait for gunpowder, and promote it to a medic. Then pour out the Cossacks.

Galleon in Moscow to replace the market. I will bring the swords east, I'll let C63 decide if he wants to upgrade.

I think I will get that 360 gold off Caesar for something (other than nat, mil trad, educ or print press). Earlier in the game, I waited too long to get big cash, and the AI spent it on something else.

I will look at getting more courthouses up. How much maint would make you prioritize that? 8, 6, 4, ??

I think physics first to lock in the free GS, then communism? Unless you feel we are secure to pick up communism first and still win the race to physics (I have been the advocate of getting the PA fast, haven't I)?

And I will get those open borders with Toku :D

dV
 
Social economy :rockon:

Still I think that "great merchant" would be inappropriate :p
I work with a health economist at times, and I would say that economics is very scientific (or at least very quantitative).

In fact, economics seems to be very statistically oriented these days. So are you a statistics guru (I am ... sort of ... for the basics. )?

dV
 
Great points by both dV and C63, sorry about the OB with Toku, I lost track of that one. :sad:

The reason for the Market in Moscow is that it is the highest commerce city we have and I thought it would benefit in the long run. But I may be thinking about it the wrong way. My games seem to bog in the later stages at the higher difficulty levels, maybe this is why! :confused: I know I still don't have a great handle on all aspects of city specialization. One funny thing is the amount of gold the other civs have, I had been checking every turn and don't remember anyone having more than 100G, but I must have forgotten to check the very last turn. My computer froze and I had to reload in the middle of turn 270 (I let Alan know). Can you even believe we got a warrior from that hut, even a little gold would have been better.

I'm not sure about Communism before Physics, since we'll be at war soon, we can't sign any PA's anyway. We could get a head start on The Kremlin (great late game wonder) but I don't see any other reason to take a chance on not getting Physics first!

@ dV, I had the same thoughts when looking at the glance screen, it seems counter intuitive as it is set up now. On the subject of who to try and set up as the rival, Isabella, Kahn, and Louie seem like the most likely candidates to me. The crop yield graph would seem to indicate that Kahn would have the highest pop of those 3.

@ C63, Agree totally on the CH issue, I just didn't finish that many builds, and I prioritized science buildings where I could and the cash buildings in Delhi. But CH's should come next I think.

I think we get a + modifier if we are asked to join a war (and agree of course)as well as the shared war modifier.

I totally agree on no need to post any spoiler info, no reason to give up any potentially useful data at this point! ;)

@ dV, I'm always torn on the tile use issue. I have a really hard time not working high production tiles. I look at the build bar and que and see huge build times and can't help myself. :sad: I know there is the ability to trade pop for hammers, but it just seems to go against my "western sensibilities". :lol: I still have a hard time whipping when I haven't reached one of the caps, especially when I see a # like 7 pop for a bank. But you are probably right to work the farms first and bring the mines on line as the pop grows.

I just checked again and Alex and Toku will give up their gold for Theology (OB with Toku first of course), Cyrus will give up his for Paper, and Guilds will garner as much as you want without trading to the "other guys".

On the upgrade issue, I think it will be better to build new units and save the gold for running high science. We will have the strongest unit on the map soon, and I dont see the need spend gold on outdated units. Maybe a galley, but even maces will be obsolete soon. I would keep the India units available there in case Izzy wants to start something again, I did tell her to go fly a kite during my turns! :p

We haven't heard from Scout and Joemama in a while, are you guys out there???
 
The reason for the Market in Moscow is that it is the highest commerce city we have and I thought it would benefit in the long run. But I may be thinking about it the wrong way. My games seem to bog in the later stages at the higher difficulty levels, maybe this is why! :confused: I know I still don't have a great handle on all aspects of city specialization.
I still have a lot to learn about city specialization too. But if we run 90% science, then all that commerce goes to science and the market has no gold to work on (it multiplies gold, not commerce).

I will probably make some longbows in India to allow me to bring the swords east. I think it will be worth it to continue to upgrade our 3 most highy promoted foot units.

I think I have enought feedback to run this turnset.

dV
 
Prince da_Vinci reporting that the era of 1280 to 1340 has been completed.

The save is on the progress page.

Not much score movement as the whip was used extensively (12 times :eek: ), including whipping the Bank in Delhi for 3 pop (added 20 GPT) at the end. Rationale for the whipping is extensively included in the logs, so you can tell me if I was brilliant or insane. In addtion to gaining more production than I lose for the building pop rushes in most cases, reducing pop reduces maintenance, so there is an extra benefit. I worship at the altar of Obormot ! :worship: :worship: :worship:

Our first Cossack and two of the swords are at the embarkation point. Another Cossack is 3 turns from completion in Nov, and the third sword is near Yaros. I'd suggest upgrading all three swords to maces and sailing for Thebes. We have something like 676 in the treasury and drain is down to -43 even at 100% science (just -9 at 90%), so we can afford it.

Three new longbows were built in RIndia to replace the mobilized swords. Vicky was scouted, had all longbows and pikes (one cat in London) so not a real threat at this time. If she declared, she would be doing R1 a favor! :D

Oxford University will be completed in Moscow in 5 turns! This is the crowning achievement of this turnset, the completion of the additional universities in time to get halfway through Oxford. Then watch the tech rate zoom, especially after we can run representation after we take Thebes.

At 100% science, physics is 11 turns away. Once Oxford is done, that should be even shorter. Any desire to chase economics for the free merchant after that? Mao can make that as well. Saw lots of GS being born so went right for physics. It might be that we can detour to econ (6 turns to get) and still get physics first now that Oxford is coming on line, as I think no one else has Sci meth yet.

Working on culture in the cities bordering Caesar and Vicky, as there has been some border creep.

No war yet between Hatty and Capac. But I think we are ready to go during C63's turnset, and get Thebes.

I think that I have wound the spring with potential energy to explode during C63's turn. Power graph grew nicely. In fact, in our own game we are now 4th in power, and not far from second. May need to watch that regarding the PA.

See the details below ... Upload log

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1280 AD to 1340 AD:

Turn 270, 1280 AD: The villagers have provided you with a Warrior!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Cyrus Demanded Astronomy, I declined
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Isabella demanded cancel deals with Toku, I declined
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Great Scientist born Moscow
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Louie demanded cancel deals with Fred, I declined
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Fred asked to join war against Aztecs, I declined
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Popped southern hut for warrior who was disbanded
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Great Scientist born in Rostov, used both to lightbulb Scientific Method

dV starts

Turn 270, 1280 AD: OB with Toku no change in trade income right away
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Toku: now 6 GPT for the clams (was 3, no diplo hit)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Toku: gave him paper for 180 gold
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Guilds to Caesar for 360 gold
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Paper to Cyrus for 170 gold
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gems to Monte now for 5 GPT (was 4)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Gems to Vicky now for 3 GPT (was 2)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Spices to Capac for 5 GPT (was 4)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Theol to Alex for 110 gold
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Copper to Alex for 2 GPT
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Theology to Monge for 80 gold - 1057 in treasury now
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Monte, not Monge
Turn 270, 1280 AD: poprush observatory in St Pete for 3 pop. Lost 4C, 1H net production, should gain 10 Sci
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Poprush univ in Yekat to build Theatre
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Poprush forge in Madras to build longbows as swords mobilize to Egypt
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Poprush library in Calcutta for 1 pop: give up 2 commerce, gain 5 science
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Poprush barracks in Bombay to free swords for Egypt
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Poprush library in bangalore to overflow into lighthouse (1 pop)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Hinduism has spread in Djenne.
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Theocracy!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Neapolis!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Mo Tzu has been born in Old Sarai!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Montezuma adopts Theocracy!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Hinduism has spread in Tlacopan.

Turn 271, 1286 AD: Mansa Musa converts to Hinduism!
Turn 271, 1286 AD: Kublai Khan has completed The Kong Miao!

Turn 272, 1292 AD: Washington adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Zhang Heng has been born in Athens!
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Beijing!

Turn 273, 1298 AD: Poprush longbow in Bombay
Turn 273, 1298 AD: You have discovered Gunpowder!
Turn 273, 1298 AD: Isabella has made peace with Tokugawa!

Turn 274, 1304 AD: Dye to Cyrus for 4 GPT (was 3)
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Poprush university in Rostov
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Poprush univ in yaros for 3 pop (give up 6 net commerce for est 7 science, and this allows me to start Oxford in Moscow when galley completes next turn, Oxford done in 12
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Tokugawa adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 275, 1310 AD: Toku and Izzy made peace back on turn 274
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Musa converted to Hindu on turn 272, but Toku still annoyed at him
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Oxford will be done in 11 turns in Moscow! +100% science
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Scouting Vicky, all pikes and longbows, no cats, not a threat.
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Hatty has 14 units staring at Elephantine
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Capac has 6 defenders, inc one Knight
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Poprush lighthouse in Bangalore (1 pop)
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Gems to Mao for 7 GPT (was 6)
Turn 275, 1310 AD: Eng to Louis for 110 gold

Turn 276, 1316 AD: Gems to Saladin for 3 GPT (new)
Turn 276, 1316 AD: Hinduism has spread in Basra.

Turn 277, 1322 AD: Liberalism to Mao for 120 gold
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Isabella has 130 gold available for trade
Turn 277, 1322 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 13 on the next turn
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Delhi will grow to size 12 on the next turn

Turn 278, 1328 AD: poprushed cossack in Nov, overflow to another
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Hatshepsut has 70 gold available for trade
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Tokugawa has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Isabella has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Moscow has grown to size 13
Turn 278, 1328 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 13
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Madras will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Bombay will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Delhi has grown to size 12

Turn 279, 1334 AD: Poprushed bank in Dehli for 3 pop, expect 25 added GPT (much more than given up)
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Kublai Khan has 60 gold available for trade
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 8
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Madras has grown to size 9
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Bombay has grown to size 5
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Delhi will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Bangalore will grow to size 2 on the next turn
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Calcutta's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 280, 1340 AD: Bank in Delhi added 20 GPT (50 became 70)


And the autolog

Spoiler :
User comment: OB with Toku no change in trade income right away
User comment: Toku: now 6 GPT for the clams (was 3, no diplo hit)
User comment: Toku: gave him paper for 180 gold
User comment: Guilds to Caesar for 360 gold
User comment: Paper to Cyrus for 170 gold
User comment: Gems to Monte now for 5 GPT (was 4)
User comment: Gems to Vicky now for 3 GPT (was 2)
User comment: Spices to Capac for 5 GPT (was 4)
User comment: Theol to Alex for 110 gold
User comment: Copper to Alex for 2 GPT
User comment: Theology to Monge for 80 gold - 1057 in treasury now
User comment: Monte, not Monge
Moscow begins: Galleon
User comment: poprush observatory in St Pete for 3 pop. Lost 4C, 1H net production, should gain 10 Sci
User comment: Poprush univ in Yekat to build Theatre
User comment: Poprush forge in Madras to build longbows as swords mobilize to Egypt
User comment: Poprush library in Calcutta for 1 pop: give up 2 commerce, gain 5 science
User comment: Poprush barracks in Bombay to free swords for Egypt
User comment: Poprush library in bangalore to overflow into lighthouse (1 pop)
St. Petersburg finishes: Observatory
Yaroslavl' finishes: Forge
Yekaterinburg finishes: University
Madras finishes: Forge
Calcutta finishes: Library
Bombay finishes: Barracks
Bangalore finishes: Library
Hinduism has spread: Djenne (Malinese Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Tlacopan (Aztec Empire)

Turn 271 (1286 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Courthouse
Yaroslavl' begins: University
Yekaterinburg begins: Theatre
Madras begins: Longbowman
Calcutta begins: Theatre
Bombay begins: Longbowman
Bombay begins: Forge
Bombay begins: Longbowman
Bangalore begins: Lighthouse
Calcutta grows: 10

Turn 272 (1292 AD)
Moscow grows: 12
Novgorod finishes: Pikeman
Yekaterinburg grows: 8
Delhi grows: 10

Turn 273 (1298 AD)
Novgorod begins: Longbowman
Pikeman promoted: Combat I
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
User comment: Poprush longbow in Bombay
Tech learned: Gunpowder
St. Petersburg grows: 12
Novgorod grows: 10
Yekaterinburg finishes: Theatre
Madras finishes: Longbowman
Bombay finishes: Longbowman

Turn 274 (1304 AD)
Research begun: Physics
Yekaterinburg begins: Hindu Temple
Madras begins: Longbowman
Bombay begins: Theatre
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
User comment: Dye to Cyrus for 4 GPT (was 3)
User comment: Poprush university in Rostov
User comment: Poprush univ in yaros for 3 pop (give up 6 net commerce for est 7 science, and this allows me to start Oxford in Moscow when galley completes next turn, Oxford done in 12
Moscow finishes: Galleon
Novgorod finishes: Longbowman
Rostov finishes: University
Yaroslavl' grows: 7
Yaroslavl' finishes: University
Calcutta finishes: Theatre
Bombay grows: 4
Bangalore grows: 2
Taoism has spread: Susa (Persian Empire)

Turn 275 (1310 AD)
Moscow begins: Oxford University
Novgorod begins: Cossack
Rostov begins: Courthouse
Yaroslavl' begins: Lighthouse
Calcutta begins: Hindu Temple
User comment: Toku and Izzy made peace back on turn 274
User comment: Musa converted to Hindu on turn 272, but Toku still annoyed at him
User comment: Oxford will be done in 11 turns in Moscow! +100% science
User comment: Scouting Vicky, all pikes and longbows, no cats, not a threat.
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
User comment: Hatty has 14 units staring at Elephantine
User comment: Capac has 6 defenders, inc one Knight
User comment: Poprush lighthouse in Bangalore (1 pop)
User comment: Gems to Mao for 7 GPT (was 6)
User comment: Eng to Louis for 110 gold
Madras grows: 8
Delhi grows: 11
Bangalore finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 276 (1316 AD)
Bangalore begins: Courthouse
User comment: Gems to Saladin for 3 GPT (new)
Hinduism has spread: Basra (Arabian Empire)

Turn 277 (1322 AD)
User comment: Liberalism to Mao for 120 gold
Rostov grows: 15
Yaroslavl' finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 278 (1328 AD)
Yaroslavl' begins: Courthouse
User comment: poprushed cossack in Nov, overflow to another
Moscow grows: 13
St. Petersburg grows: 13
Novgorod finishes: Cossack
Delhi grows: 12

Turn 279 (1334 AD)
Novgorod begins: Cossack
User comment: Poprushed bank in Dehli for 3 pop, expect 25 added GPT (much more than given up)
Yaroslavl' grows: 8
Madras grows: 9
Madras finishes: Longbowman
Bombay grows: 5
Delhi finishes: Bank

Turn 280 (1340 AD)
Madras begins: Library
Delhi begins: Grocer
User comment: Bank in Delhi added 20 GPT (50 became 70)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison I
 
Well Done!! I haven't looked at the save yet, but it sounds like congrats are in order. I must have set you up pretty well! :lol:

The current roster order is;

da_Vinci - just played :goodjob:
C63 - UP NOW :D
Joemama - on deck :cool:
Scout214 - in the hole ;)
Ronnie1 - waiting :scan:

Igelkott - Temporary Leave of Absence :sad:

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice
 
I like what I see! :D

We may want to take a shot at Economics, no one else is even close to Physics at this point. If we get it, what do we do with the merchant?? I'd probably favor sending him on the journey for immediate gold, we could join him to Delhi for an additional 12GPT after the Grocer is built and double that after Wallstreet goes in. At 12 GPT it will take probably 200 turns to offset the lump sum, guessing it will be in the neighborhood 2400.

I would not whip any more in Novgorod. We want to grow that city as much as possible now to take advantage of the Heroic Epic and the cottages that are there. The cottages on the plains will be great once they become towns and we switch to U.S. and Free Speech. 1F/2H/7G

I think we can head for Thebes with what we have now. Maybe upgrade the Swords after we get some gold from capturing Thebes, and keep backfilling Cossacks as they become available. I'd also build more troops in Bombay for Rindia, better safe than sorry.

Ask Capac to join at the outset, it may help him near Elephantine to be on the offensive, and/or may draw some of Hatties troops away from the northern cities before we get there. Where do we go from Thebes? I think the other 2 northern cities and then come south.

I really think we are in a very strong position right now. After Oxford, Moscow will be back online for Cossacks every 6 turns and we aren't even running any military civics.

I say let 'er rip!! :ar15: :sniper: :spear:
 
I like what I see! :D

We may want to take a shot at Economics, no one else is even close to Physics at this point. If we get it, what do we do with the merchant?? I'd probably favor sending him on the journey for immediate gold,
Mao has had banking for a few turns (he got it the turn I traded for his gold, as I was thinking of trading banking the turn before for it), so it may depend on whether he is researcing econ yet as to whether we win the race. Vicky has just gotten banking last turn I think. No one else is showing a "can resarch physics", or even a "can research sci meth" as far as I can see.

Can we gold rush a wonder? Maybe not. If we could, we could save the merchant to do his trade mission after we start UN. Thebes may build us a GE for the UN if we play it right. Thebes gives us mids, and so with USuf we could buy construction with the Merchant gold. Or use him for a GA at the time we build the UN. Lots of options, maybe wait to decide.

I would not whip any more in Novgorod. We want to grow that city as much as possible now to take advantage of the Heroic Epic and the cottages that are there. The cottages on the plains will be great once they become towns and we switch to U.S. and Free Speech. 1F/2H/7G
I agree. But I just had to have at least one Cossack during my turn! :D And I wanted one and one on the way for C63. I think we have set him up nicely! :goodjob:

I think we can head for Thebes with what we have now. Maybe upgrade the Swords after we get some gold from capturing Thebes, and keep backfilling Cossacks as they become available. I'd also build more troops in Bombay for Rindia, better safe than sorry.
Why not take a "loan" on the thebes gold and upgrade now? Maces are not obsolete vs Hatty, and if they join the attack, I think they will promote again. Also, the pikes are one away, so if there is a weakling to finish off, they can get their medic promotions.

My guess is that we can focus on infrasturcture in RIndia, by and large, boat a few Cossacks in for defense and deterence. Maybe build a few cats in Bombay? Cheap and very nice on the defense. "Siege weapon" doesn't do this class justice.

Ask Capac to join at the outset, it may help him near Elephantine to be on the offensive, and/or may draw some of Hatties troops away from the northern cities before we get there. Where do we go from Thebes? I think the other 2 northern cities and then come south.
We may not be able to take all of Egypt as we may become too powerful !! :eek: We will probably be second in power soon. I can't see us pushing anyone else ahead of Mao in power. Toku took a run at it, but Mao has pulled away again. Hatty has been ramping up, almost in second (for the moment :D )

Mao is too powerful to enter a PA, but after we make one (Capac?), our pair will have the power max, then he can make his own, right? The whole world turning Hindu may be working against us, as we have no good rival to set up. But, if we can be friendly with more Hindus than our Hindu rival, we could still get a front door diplo perhaps.

If setting up a non-Hindu won't work, maybe the answer is for us to conquer them all. If we could get troops there fast enough, I'd say lets take America before Monte does ! :eek: State Property will be key to our far flung colonial empire. Eventually, there will be rivalries among the Hindus that we can exploit (I hope).

Do we try to prevent a Caesar+Mao alliance if we pair with Capac (how would we do that)? Or would we rather pair with Caesar? I think Mao can't be done given his power, unless we think we can pump Toku that much, and do we want to do that?

Workers have had little to do. I have built roads, and farms, since biology later adds a food per farm, and for the votes, it may be a matter of maxing pop in the land we have. Eventually, we might turn mines to windmills, and go on a food max spree.

I really think we are in a very strong position right now. After Oxford, Moscow will be back online for Cossacks every 6 turns and we aren't even running any military civics.
Glad you like it :D Means I don't have to explain losing 15-18 people to industrial accidents :lol: We will see what C63 thinks. He may agree with the building rushes and not the unit rushes (as I think about it, they are harder to justify).

The idea that a building can add more output to a city than even the 3 pop it costs to rush it is very powerful, if not immediately intuitive. This makes some even extreme pop rushes justified. As you don't have that rationale for a unit rush, those might be less reasonable. In the last turnset, they were to enable faster mobilization for the war.

I say let 'er rip!! :ar15: :sniper: :spear:
Charge, C63! :goodjob:

dV
 
Just something to think through ... if we can't get a front door diplo, is one approach to a back door to use nukes to wipe out world population so that our pop is over 60% (we and our partner)? :eek: :eek: :eek:

It is one way to get high % pop without passing the dom land limit. We would need missile defenses to protect ourselves.

The extreme in ruthless, backdoor "diplomatic" victory! :eek: :lol:

Just something to consider, before we rule out nukes in the UN.

dV
 
It looks like I got to play the "bad guy" role this time. :lol:

Now seriously, excellent job, da Vinci! Special thanks for the detailed log, I might even forgive you for the ruthless handling of our beloved people! :lol:

I'll be able to open the save (and play my turn) some 10h from now. Until then, allow me to digress a little... :mischief:

I understand we're now set to a super fast research rate. And the fact a few GSs (besides the free one from Physics) might be on their way (I haven't checked) might push us even forward. Dream scenario for a spacerace win.

But if we agreed that a diplo win would be achievable faster than a spacerace win, how far would we need to tech? Have we given up our idea of getting a PA ASAP (basically doubling our research rate) and just beelining to the UN? And while on our way there, work towards pop growth (either by farming and conquest ;) )?

Just my 2¢. I can understand rushing/whipping if that leads us to grow our pop by conquering neighbours, just think we might want to keep focused in our final objective.

That said, I still think we should go for communism next. What do you guys think?
 
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