SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Scout214 · Jan 11, 2007

I agree with C63, that we should take the first PA opportunity available. dV may be right that it'll be Capac but it was Mao who was willing to do the DP 5 turns earlier than Capac despite the fact that we were sharing a war with Capac. Mao became willing as soon as we ended the wars. Capac did not until turn 313 (didn't check the others that turn), when I was handing off and so left that decision for Ronnie. I was checking all of the top Hindu nations every turn. It would not surprise me if Mao was willing to go to PA before Capac. I'd prefer that but we should follow C63's plan to grab the first one willing.

One reason to refrain from switching to Caste System is bound up in Ronnie's analysis of our newly conquered cities. Pop rushing could be important in terms of avoiding starvation and bringing (our version of) normalcy to them. If we intend to womp on some more nations then we may want to preserve Slavery for that purpose on an ongoing basis.

I ain't worried about the other teams, for now at least. I think we got 'em smoked! Especially if we can pull off an early UN victory.

da_Vinci · Jan 11, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I think we should keep the ball rolling. Most everyone is able and willing to play, so let's do it. I say play tonight Ronnie1, if da Vinci can play tomorrow, I can play my turn until Saturday; I'm leaving on Sunday morning.

I can play tomorrow, so that plan will work. If the Capac PA comes in on my turns, I'll take it, and then who to attack? Musa looks juicy, but he is Hindu.

Conquistador 63 said:
Re. some ideas and questions posted above: 1. I'm NOT a diplo expert, and I think there still is a lot of uncertainty on the AI voting decisions. But what I do know is that voting (for secretary and diplo win) is based solely on pop count. But which pop? There are 2 different ones: the 1, 2, 3 etc. and the 10,000, 25,000 or something like that shown next to the city name in the city screen and in the demographics screen. For voting it is the sum of 12 + 9 + etc pops of the cities of the voting civs.

Well, my total number of diplo wins ever is 0, so you are way ahead of me!

Interesting that Novgorod, pop 10 says 630,000 but both Moscow and St. Pete at 15 say 1,963,000 (well above 50% more than 630,000 ... in fact 3X 630,000). So the citizen count and the population numbers are not linearly related. For votes, if it is the citizen count, then more cities, even if smaller, where pop takes less food, may be the way to go, up to the land limit.

Conquistador 63 said:
3. Ideal scenario: teaming with Mao having Toku as opponent, then poisoning his relations with our friends. Realistic scenario: get the 1st PA available. I'm for the latter.

Any way to make Toku the opponent even if we pair with Capac? Even if we paired with Mao, hard not to have Caesar as opponent.

What does it take to get a civ to vote for you in the UN for victory? My limited experience suggests that they must be friendly with you. Not enough that they like you better, must like you to the max. Is that true? Because I see lots of abtsentions in votes I have seen.

So it may not be enough to poison relations with the rival, it may take sweetening relations with the voters.

Conquistador 63 said:
4. I'm in favor of caste system too (after selected whipping of starving cities in Egypt). Other benefits: our needed voting pop will be safer from our whipping-lover rulers. Also, we can set GP farms as we want (btw if we could get a G.Artist he would help lightbulb Mass Media).

Whip loving rulers ... now who would that be? :lol:

Since I have re-thought the logic, I am much more conservative about whipping. So the people are (relatively) safe!

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 11, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
Just opened latest save. Toku (and someone else - Saladin?) also willing to DP. Should we?
Also if we can, avoid trading MT to delay AI getting DPs themselves.
And if and when we go to war, my picks would be Izzy (attacking from Vicky's lands) and Louis, from Izzy's lands later. But that can change later.

Problem with these other DP is if someone declares on them, we get dragged in, and DP with Mao and Capac get cancelled, delaying the PA we want. So I think we just keep DP to Mao and Capac.

Sounds like the idea of turning on Mao and Caesar early is not finding much support. That is fine, as it may take some time to build up the army to do that anyway, if we should decide to do that.

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 11, 2007

Scout214 said:
I agree with C63, that we should take the first PA opportunity available. dV may be right that it'll be Capac but it was Mao who was willing to do the DP 5 turns earlier than Capac despite the fact that we were sharing a war with Capac. Mao became willing as soon as we ended the wars. Capac did not until turn 313 (didn't check the others that turn), when I was handing off and so left that decision for Ronnie. I was checking all of the top Hindu nations every turn. It would not surprise me if Mao was willing to go to PA before Capac. I'd prefer that but we should follow C63's plan to grab the first one willing.

Hard to believe that the shared war won't get us PA with Capac before Mao, but who knows for sure? Power (Mao at the top) may be the bigger problem for PA with him.

Scout214 said:
One reason to refrain from switching to Caste System is bound up in Ronnie's analysis of our newly conquered cities. Pop rushing could be important in terms of avoiding starvation and bringing (our version of) normalcy to them. If we intend to womp on some more nations then we may want to preserve Slavery for that purpose on an ongoing basis.

If we have 20 turns of peace before the PA, we could well want Caste System for that stretch if wars are off the table. We can always revolt back later when we are fighting again.

Ronnie1 · Jan 11, 2007

I'm going to play now! I'll have the save up in an hour or so.

Ronnie1 · Jan 12, 2007

@ All,
I was careful to not trade Military Tradition to anyone! I figure we want to keep the number of defensive pacts on the map to the minimum.

Democracy is available for trade from Mao! He will trade it for Physics or Communism. He will also trade Corporation for Military Tradition, but see rule #1 above.

I am building The Kremlin in Moscow, more GPP and I didn't want anyone else to get it. I think Moscow should build the National Epic next to really start pumping out GP's.

I did not change civics for a few reasons. We seem to be able to run quite a few specialists already in the cities that have the food supply to support them. I did not want to slow down research with anarchy. I pop rushed in the cities coming out resistance.

Capac switched to Free Religion and dropped to just pleased with us. :sad:

But that may not hurt us when trying to get the PA, I'm not sure.

I did not make any trades for gold with the non-hindu, I'm still unclear as to whether it will have a negative impact or not. I have been playing another game with aggressive AI's, trades for lumps of cash in exchange for techs don't seem to have an impact, but I didn't want to risk it. :dunno:

The logs are pretty detailed as to the actual events that occured and are below.

The power rating is not an issue at this time!! Toku is #1, Mao #2, Us #3

Carry on!! :cheers:

The logistics

The current roster order is

Ronnie1 - just played
da_Vinci - UP NOW
Conquistador63 - on deck
Joemama - in the hole
Scout214 - waiting

Igelkott - Temporary leave of absence

Confussion - Injured reserve until further notice

The save is here
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_AD1562_01.Civ4SavedGame

The session turn log is here

Spoiler :

The Autolog is here

Spoiler :

da_Vinci · Jan 12, 2007

Good job R1! :goodjob:

Ronnie1 said:
I was careful to not trade Military Tradition to anyone! I figure we want to keep the number of defensive pacts on the map to the minimum.

Looks like you gave it to Cyrus on demand, which I think was a good move. Someone will be making it soon anyway, so if it starts getting traded around, we might as well get some gold for it.

Ronnie1 said:
Democracy is available for trade from Mao! He will trade it for Physics or Communism. He will also trade Corporation for Military Tradition, but see rule #1 above.

Might want to hoard communism, but could trade physics for it, as we are far down that road. OTOH, we can research Dem in 6 turns, Corp in 4 so do we now want to slow world research as we envision wars of conquest (see next)? Why trade 6 turns of our research for perhaps 12 turns of their research?

Ronnie1 said:
I am building The Kremlin in Moscow, more GPP and I didn't want anyone else to get it. I think Moscow should build the National Epic next to really start pumping out GP's.

Next build in Moscow will be the UN !! :goodjob:

We are only 13 turns from mass media !! 25 turns to build it in Moscow without the GE ... will the GE do all or just part of it?

We might want to consider waiting for C63 to return before we play turns with the UN built. Expert or no, I think he has the most experience with diplo wins and once the UN is up, we want his input into every voting decision. Will it be safe to have a victory vote in the UN right away, or not? Do we need to delay building it so we don't lose by diplomacy? I am at a loss!

We might even upload and discuss every 3 turns (if that is the UN voting interval ... seemed to be in the paired test game with Scout214).

Ronnie1 said:
I did not change civics for a few reasons. We seem to be able to run quite a few specialists already in the cities that have the food supply to support them. I did not want to slow down research with anarchy. I pop rushed in the cities coming out resistance.

Current civics seem fine. Gao has culture problems and may need theatre poprushed.

Ronnie1 said:
Capac switched to Free Religion and dropped to just pleased with us. But that may not hurt us when trying to get the PA, I'm not sure.

I notice Toku asked for DP and we said no. Now that Capac is only pleased, I think that when DP is long enough, we may get the "we don't like you enough" from Capac. So maybe we want to DP with Toku to hedge our bets yet again? Maybe even Saladin as well (I could take or leave that). I am thinking that DP with us deters war, so is safe.

Maybe later, if we need it, we can bribe Capac back to Hindu?

Ronnie1 said:
I did not make any trades for gold with the non-hindu, I'm still unclear as to whether it will have a negative impact or not. I have been playing another game with aggressive AI's, trades for lumps of cash in exchange for techs don't seem to have an impact, but I didn't want to risk it.

I was able to successfully trade with Louis with no hits as he was not anyone's lowest relationship. I can look at some of those options and perhaps test the waters. But the non-hindu are our future targets, so maybe we don't want to increase their techs? But other AI might anyway, so why don't we get the gold? Thoughts?

Should we start packing our land with cities? We could build one 3W of Moscow, and one about 3S 1W of Thebes. St Pete is perfect for building settlers.

Gao and Helio are under cultural pressure, so I will address that.

We are building several Banks. At 90% science, the net gold from the banks will be 1 or 2 in the cities at most. I may put them on hold for more useful builds at this time, unless there is some logic for the banks now that I don't see.

Now, for some heresy! Whole point of PA was to get to MM faster. Looks like we get to MM without it. In that case, do we prefer a world with no PA's, or a world with several PA's, from a voting perspective? Because I think that the second ones won't take as long as the first ones (perhaps a game balancing thing like Manhattan allow nukes for all).

We would still have the edge of the only PA for a while, but it may only take 10 turns of DP to get the second PA (my experience of one time).

That said, we might wait for Mao after all for the PA, or even Toku? Interesting options, and may be crucial for my next turnset.

I guess if there is no front door right away, first available PA does speed us to military techs and the back door diplo.

dV

PS This war academy article looks like a must read for all: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/diplo_victory_notes.php

A quote from it (I still have more to read)

"The AI will almost always vote for your diplo win if you have a total positive standing of 11 or more, unless it is your competitor or has a higher standing with your competitor." Front door after all? :goodjob:

Ronnie1 · Jan 12, 2007

The reason for the banks is to be able to build Wallstreet when it is available, 100%G in Delhi, and if we can't quite keep up the science pace, banks do add qite a bit to the coffers.

As Scout said earlier on the vote, I think we should go for the Diplo win on the first vote to see where we stand. I don't think we could possibly lose to anyone if we had a PA with any of the other top 3 powers.

I am not in favor of packing in cities, we can use the GS to get a start on Biology (should then only take 3-5-turns) which will add signifcantly to our pop. If we trade it to the AI's that are voting for us after the first vote is taken, it will boost their pop (and vote count) as well.

Conquistador 63 · Jan 12, 2007

Well done, Ronnie1!

I haven't opened the save yet, so my comments are based on the latest posts.

I agree on the banks/wall street move.

Getting Biology from GS is also a good idea, hopefully we'll have chemistry from trade by then (after MM, that is).
I am for trading away Physics for Democracy or better yet Corporation, if the option is available, because Demo is sort of a dead-end tech for us (we got Pyramids for US). If not possible, and since MT has already been traded, I think we'd better get something for it while we can - and trading it (to a friendly, hindu civ!

) for a nice tech like Corporation worth 000's of beakers is better than a few hundreds of cash.

About civics: how about converting caste system and universal suffrage at some point? We're building the Kremlin, aren't we? And from a quick glance at an earlier save, I still think SP could help, but it is not a big deal, nor worth the anarchy.

About HC reconversion to hindu, it could always be tried. DP with Toku wouldn't hurt either, I guess.

About the UN, I am still all for getting it up ASAP. Maybe we won't be able to achieve a diplo win in the very first rounds, but I'd be very much surprised if we lost the secretary election, given our current situation.

I don't know if it is feasible from the logistics standpoint (location and resources for it), but here's another of my crazy ideas: :crazyeye:

Last time I checked, K.Khan was the top dog among the non-hindi. How if we invaded Izzy, taking all her cities, and before a diplo vote, gave them all to Khan, making him 2nd in pop? :evil:

This way I think we might have a very good chance of a front-door diplo win.

Joemama · Jan 12, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I don't know if it is feasible from the logistics standpoint (location and resources for it), but here's another of my crazy ideas:
Last time I checked, K.Khan was the top dog among the non-hindi. How if we invaded Izzy, taking all her cities, and before a diplo vote, gave them all to Khan, making him 2nd in pop? This way I think we might have a very good chance of a front-door diplo win.

I think I mentioned this idea when deciding to invade Egypt. My thought at that time was to accumulate as much population as possible by tearing through that continent (the neighbor to the north was not Hindu at that time) and gifting what we needed to Khan. Can anyone give a reason why this wouldn't work?

Ronnie1 · Jan 12, 2007

I like the idea of "shifting the Spanish to Mongols". It seems like the fastest way to ensure a non-hindu voting rival.

I like the idea of switching to US, I'm still not sold on the need for Caste System, as I said before, we can already run as many specialists as our food will support. Caste system does not allow unlimited Engineers which is a what we need to speed production.

Speaking of GE's, I know we have one and want to use him for the UN. It will be good for 1100 of 1500 hammers I think. If we get another, I would like to use it to build Ironworks (1050H). We will want it to go in an already high production city as the bonus for that wonder is multiplied by the current hammers available.

About the trades, I agree that something is better than nothing, but I would still be a little cautious with MT if we have other options available.

We need to get Chemistry before we can get Biology, I think that should be our main goal after MM. Then Steel for cannons IMO, and then towards Industrialism.

Conquistador 63 · Jan 12, 2007

Joemama said:
I think I mentioned this idea when deciding to invade Egypt. My thought at that time was to accumulate as much population as possible by tearing through that continent (the neighbor to the north was not Hindu at that time) and gifting what we needed to Khan. Can anyone give a reason why this wouldn't work?

You're right, Joe. This has been suggested before. There are 2 catches:
1. we should avoid declaring on a hindu civ for obvious reasons
2. the cities must be near the civ to whom we intend to gift, or else they won't accept. I have just looked at the save and in fact I now find that Louis' cities (2 x size 12) are even closer to Khan, so they probably are a better target than Izzy's. Might take a while to get units there, though.

da_Vinci · Jan 12, 2007

Looking at the short run for my ten turns ...

Keep the banks going for Wall street in Dehli eventually.

Try to manage culture in Gao and Helio.

Cautious trading, to keep everyone happy and hoard a few key techs.

What if PA with Capac becomes available ... take it, or wait for Mao? It may be moot as PA may not happen unless Capac is Friendly with us. Or, it may be a pure numbers thing, which does not correlate that well with the categories, it seems. Might use favorite civic to get Capac friendly again ... if so, make the PA if available?

Do we agree that we will do better in voting with a PA? My thought on maybe waiting on that is that if the first PA takes 40 turns of DP, then we could have several votes with no PA on the board if we felt that was better than having a voting rival that is part of a PA (does partner always vote with ally in the UN?). I am not sure which is better.

Anyone have time to count how many civs are +11 or higher with us, and not higher with Mao? If the new source is right, that would give us an idea of how first vote will go.

And, how might we use favorite civics to boost more to +11 and higher than rival?

Some detailed planning here might really pay off.

And, were do we want me to move the army, in anticipation of the next conquest? Izzy, or Louis?

And I am not sure why adding the two cities we could build is not a good idea. They can work sea tiles otherwise unworked, cheaply add trade route income with harbors, grow quickly with granaries (all made with a Peter bonus). I suppose power issues around the PA is the downside, perhaps?

dV

Scout214 · Jan 12, 2007

"We need to get Chemistry before we can get Biology, I think that should be our main goal after MM. Then Steel for cannons IMO, and then towards Industrialism."

I agree.

Would giving cities to Khan hurt us with any of our Hindu buddies?

I agree that having a PA when we convene UN will help. From the test game dV and I played, seemed like any nation Pleased or better was a good bet to vote for us. If UN convenes before we have a PA, see where the vote falls and get the PA as soon as available to do.

I also agree that having banks will help.

I think that we need to avoid attacking other Hindu nations or any nation with whom we have good relations at least until we see how the first UN vote goes, then plan accordingly (unless of course we WIN on the first ballot!). I also see little chance that we will fail to secure Secretary General.

da_Vinci · Jan 12, 2007

Looking at glance, and if the +11 rule in 407 above is correct, then we would get the votes of Monte, Alex, Capac, Toku. Saladin is + 13 with us and Mao, so abstains? Vic, JC and Cyrus are +10 so we almost have their votes (they like Mao less). So front door on first vote is perhaps possible.

We will acquire negatives with Hindi now if we war on Izzy or Louis. I say no more war, pump the Mr. Nice, and wait for PA with Mao (most are happier with him than Capac). See if we can win on first UN vote !! :goodjob:

13 turns to MM, and perhaps 10 to get UN built with the GE.

dV

Addendum: finished the paired game with Scout214 ... we had too much bad blood to get a diplo there, but did some experiments. +11 was required to get vote for the win. PA partner voted with you. If you were +11 with one member of a PA, the other voted for you as well. Was able to move a +10 to +11 by adopting favorite civic, and runs all same civics as that civ. Caesar aske me to accept his favorite civic, that was worth +2 !

Problem came when two civs voting for me paired up and became the voting rival. Killed my base of voting support. This is why we might not want PA to be spawning right away.

Had to settle for a space race win in 1943.

Playing turn now, setting up for the front door diplo, which is looking quite possible !

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 13, 2007

Played turn 324 to 335 (1595). Details are in the logs.

Highlights: Completed Kremlin and Mass Media together turn 333 (1589). Very convenient, as that allowed starting UN in Moscow, using GE on it for 12?? hammers, so now UN is due in six turns! :goodjob:

Chemistry comes in next turn.

Traded techs for cash to run 100% science most of turn. Can't trade with Musa or Capac any more as they have even some hindu annoyed at them.

Discovered that having 4 DP makes negatives with those you don't have it with, that go away when you cancel one and go back to three.

PA with Capac became available, but waiting for Mao for PA expected turn 348. Since, Capac has dropped to pleased so no longer avail unless we bribe him back to friendly. Mao is better for the front door diplo.

We are now +11 or higher with 8 civs (one will be rival in votes), with one at +10. If C63 can get that one up to +11, then we may have a front door.

I started moving troops to Dehli as rally point for invasion west if we need to go to war. Also started disbanding old troops to stay below Toku in power. Started building maces in Nov to serve as gift troops to Toku if needed.

I think we are well set up for the diplo attempt. We could rush the UN if we felt that helped.

I did not whip anything whole turn! :eek:

Who ... me ?

I would suggest that C63 play to 350 so he gets a chance at a couple of UN votes, including one after a PA with Mao. Does PA create dilplo negative like too many DP does?

dV

upload log:

Spoiler :

auto log

Spoiler :

dV

Joemama · Jan 13, 2007

Looks like what happens in the next turnset will make or break us. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it shakes out.

After we get the U.N. I would suggest a civics change to State Property and Free Speech (an interesting combo historically).

I did a rough calculation and Free Market costs 120 gold and gains us 48 gold in extra trade routes. State Property would cost us 113 gold and save us 86 gold in maintenance costs. This shows state property will gain us 45 gpt.

After completing the U.N. I think we can sacrifice the beakers and hammers in Moscow for more nationwide gold as well as doubling culture. The culture could really help us in our border wars.

I would not waste the turns of anarcy until we have the U.N., but would consider these changes after that.

da_Vinci · Jan 13, 2007

Joemama said:
Looks like what happens in the next turnset will make or break us. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it shakes out.

I hope the choice is really make now or make later, not break! :eek:

Once we were that close to MM, felt that we did not need the PA research to rush there, and waiting for Mao made sense: better for voting to pair with him. Also, Izzy and Louis have a few Hindu pleased with them, so war would pretty much rule out the quick front door.

A DP, after time, seems to add +diplo points. So civics and the judicious use of the DP might get Cyrus to +11. Our +12 with Vicky is based on +3 for wise civics, so we may not have much civic room. But if we end DP with Toku and make one with Cyrus, might get no DP negatives and get (eventually, may take 20 turns or so, as the DP +2 with Mao just showed up) +2 with Cyrus. May not have it by first vote, but maybe by 4th or 5th?

If we are close to the diplo, we could put all specialists on food tiles, get biol, and grow our way to victory rather that fight our way. Or, if our diplo positives are high enough, the right war might not lose too much support.

I sure hope staying peaceful and waiting for Mao were the right choices. Seemed like the way to keep all options open: the fast front door, the best PA, and war was creating too many diplo negatives at that time.

Since I know that C63 has a few GOTM diplo wins under his belt, I thought what better than to deliver him a turnset with this much voting support, a couple of UN votes for the win and the PA with Mao coming due, and see what his experience could do with that!

Joemama said:
After we get the U.N. I would suggest a civics change to State Property and Free Speech (an interesting combo historically).

I did a rough calculation and Free Market costs 120 gold and gains us 48 gold in extra trade routes. State Property would cost us 113 gold and save us 86 gold in maintenance costs. This shows state property will gain us 45 gpt.

After completing the U.N. I think we can sacrifice the beakers and hammers in Moscow for more nationwide gold as well as doubling culture. The culture could really help us in our border wars.

I would not waste the turns of anarcy until we have the U.N., but would consider these changes after that.

In my paired game with Scout214, Vicky was my "tech whore": she was my PA and did all my science. I had to run about 30% science, so the space techs were saying 40 turns, then I would get Vicky to research it, and it would be 9 turns for the two of us!

So we could perhaps turn off research, let Mao carry that ball, and buy (or even draft) troops if war is the only road to victory.

Definitely no anarchy until after the UN.

The great fork in the road now is whethter to grow or to fight our way to victory. If we are close enough, growing our way may be fastest!

We still have two GS in wait ... would only bulb computers ... maybe after chemistry they will bulb biology?

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 13, 2007

If C63 can't play his turnset before he leaves, I am all for letting it simmer until he returns. He may be our most experienced player with diplo wins (correct me if I am wrong), and if so, this current setup is perfect for an experienced diplo player.

And, once we win, our progress chart stops, and teams figure out that we are done. They will know it was not a loss!

That has a spoilerish quality, as they may know that they must rush to fastest diplo, even if risky, to have a chance to beat us. So they might follow a risky path that they would not otherwise pursue.

So no harm in letting some real time go on by before we pull the trigger on this setup, if C63 can't get to it today.

dV

da_Vinci · Jan 13, 2007

While civic changes may be nice, be careful that we don't lose Vicky's vote in the process !! :eek:

She is +12 by virtue of +3 from wise civics. So if we lose that, she will be +9, below the +11 threshold for a vote for the win.

dV

SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Pawn in the game of Civ

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Pawn in the game of Civ

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

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