SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

I haven't looked at SGOTM1 at all, so new for me! The Deity game is intriguing just from a strategy standpoint for me. I'm sure it's beyond my level also, but so was Emperor before I started playing the GOTM's.

I'll have a look at the GK save and lay out some initial thoughts. I guess I am a little spoiled from having looked at the final progress page. But I'll keep it to myself if you wish.

 

[Ronnie1]

The blue circle N of the settler suggests resources N of course. I like the plains hill SW of the settler for the extra hammer and bringing the known cows into play early. If we move there and don't like it for some reason, we can settle the blue circle site on T3. The warrior does us no good for scouting in the short run, the settler will have to see its own destiny. I suppose the warrior goes onto the hill W, and we could make a big move all the way to the ocean with the settler.

 

[da_Vinci]

I haven't looked at SGOTM1 at all, so new for me! The Deity game is intriguing just from a strategy standpoint for me. I'm sure it's beyond my level also, but so was Emperor before I started playing the GOTM's.

I'll have a look at the GK save and lay out some initial thoughts. I guess I am a little spoiled from having looked at the final progress page. But I'll keep it to myself if you wish.

GK save ??? What do you mean?

Starting saves are avail on the progress page, under SGOTM 1, pick list of saves to display instead of the graph. Is that what you mean?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I guess Ronnie means the save I attached a few posts above. I created it from the WB save, which I requested in this thread. According to AlanH, the general WB save is now available in the result pages of the completed SG's.
I just loaded the given save under my civ4 exe. This in turn showed a screen where I could select a civ from the 7 available ones, and select other stuff like difficult level, speed, etc. I didn't change anything, of course. I started such game and saved it before making any move. The bright side of it is that now it runs under latest hof mod. Downside to it is that I could have memorized the other civs in the game, but honestly I didn't.

More on initial moves to follow.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Pretty intriguing start spot. Lots of FP's. Settling in the blue circle tile should give us at least 9 FP's in the fat cross. At first glance I'd accept the blue circle suggestion. Health issues may be a concern soon, but in the suggested spot at least there are a few forest to counter unhealthiness. Farming those FP's is overkill IMO, I'd like to get them all cottaged.

After settling I could go either worker or warrior. Tech could be AH to locate horses, or mining & BW, or even pottery. Lots of choices.

 

[da_Vinci]

The bright side of it is that now it runs under latest hof mod. Downside to it is that I could have memorized the other civs in the game, but honestly I didn't.

More on initial moves to follow.

By all means, lets use the mod. I'm spoiled now!

Does WB show you the locations of the civs as well? Just knowing who is not such a big deal, but knowing where ... that's different!

dV

edit: I pulled a save off the progress page ... we start at war with Capac?? That's how this save is starting. If true, I'd say we need some warriors, pronto. Why cottage the FP rather than farm and run infinite scientists?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@C63,
Go ahead and start when ever you feel like it. Your idea and all!! It doesn't seem like we'll be boxed in in any way, so the start should be fairly fast whether we have good food or good production. Are all of the other GK's up for a little practice game?

 

[da_Vinci]

SE of the warrior, there is that desert square that seems good for nothing else except a city! Kind of like St. Pete was in SGOTM 3: lots of GP and whip whatever production it needs.

If we want that location as a city, do we need to move the settler inland a bit?

I have become enamoured of settling on plains hills, so I kind of like R1's suggestion of moving settler SW. Might even go further west to make room for the Desert Inn. I think we may want fast production of a Warrior if Capac might be coming with Quechua.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

@dV: by loading the WB save we get on a screen like we would get by loading a pre-made scenario, where you are allowed set some parameters like game speed, difficulty level, etc. and picking a civ from the available ones. The game then starts (like a new game). This doesn't open the game map. You could try it yourself.

And yes, we are locked at war with Capac for the whole game, and locked at peace with some other (undisclosed) civ. That is the game's special flavor, I guess. Also, its objective is domination or diplo, and PA's are enabled. No other wins were elegible for awards, and space race was disabled. More detail on the maintenance thread for that game. It is a long one, but might be worth a quick browse. I'll try to do it myself.

I don't know if Capac is nearby, but believe (or hope ) he's not. Nevertheless, I guess the effect of WW for being at war with someone for the whole game must be really tough.

Back on the settling discussion. I usually like settling on PH. But hammers is the starting area are at a premium. I'd like to have that hill mined later. Settling 1N on the blue circle (on that otherwise mediocre tile) should allow us to do it while keeping a fair share of the FP's. It also leaves room for a 2nd city in the desert inn/ocean (only 2 overlapping tiles). Downside to desert inn: no fresh water and only 1 forest, combined to lots of FP's; unhealthiness will be an issue. If we were playing this seriously, a test start would be required as I don't know exactly how this stuff adds.

Another issue on long term strategy: cottage economy or specialist economy? We ran SE on SG3 (Peter was philosophical so that made sense), but I prefer CE on my single player GOTMs. Adds more flexibility I think. There was a debate on it in recent GOTM threads. No clear winner, IIRC.
Anyway, I might be able to get the ball rolling and play a few turns later tonight (in a couple of hours). Any further input is welcome, as always.

 

[Ronnie1]

RE: SE or CE??

I tend to favor the CE most of the time, but I'm finding on the higher difficulty levels that having the ability to drop 2 scientists into alot of cities is very helpful in keeping the science output up. Now maybe this is because I haven't built enough cottages to keep the sci rate as high as I would like. Practicing for the Deity game has shown me alot about the effects of maintenance, both city and troops. If there isn't a reason to have it, it really seems to drag on the economy.

 

[da_Vinci]

@dV: by loading the WB save we get on a screen like we would get by loading a pre-made scenario, where you are allowed set some parameters like game speed, difficulty level, etc. and picking a civ from the available ones. The game then starts (like a new game). This doesn't open the game map. You could try it yourself.

I've never played in that sandbox, so I'll have to check it out.

Regarding unhealth and the FP ... unhealth is almost its own equilibrium, as it adds to food consumption, and the FP add food. So if your farm FP, does the extra food balance the unhealth? Just a thought.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

No need to keep playing solitaire or minesweeper on your computer anymore, while waiting for SGOTM4, Gypsy Kings! Word on our team's empire-building abilities has spread throughout the Civ world, and the egyptian people has hired us as their new leaders!

We've trusted the blue-circle gods and took a short walk to found Thebes on a plain next to a fine lake. The gods were pleased with us accepting their command and gifted us with a pair of cows - or was it a cow and a bull? We couldn't tell one from the other. So we took that as a hint that we should research a way of domesticating those beasts. It took us 510 years to discover it, but eventually we did.

On the bright side, another kind of beast has showed up, next to our city borders. We named it horse. Thanks to us being a cultured people, our borders will grow and in 20 turns we should be able to tame those beasts and use them to build a deadly weapon which we should call war chariot! Then, when we can find where that Capac guy is hiding, we'll teach him a lesson. Meanwhile, we can send them to train their skills in our neighbour's land - I am pretty sure that cute little miss named Cathy won't oppose (too much ) to it.

Meanwhile, our city has grown and another warrior has been trained. A worker is being trained, to put those animals to work.

Not much has happened, see with your own eyes.

Spoiler :

<b><u>Turn 0 (4000 BC)</b></u><br>
Thebes founded
Thebes begins: Warrior
Research begun: Animal Husbandry

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)
Thebes's borders expand

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
User comment: lion SE

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)
User comment: orange borders SW - Russia?
Thebes grows: 2
Thebes finishes: Warrior

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Thebes begins: Worker

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Contact made: Russian Empire
User comment: hi Cathy

Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 17 (3490 BC)
Research begun: Mining

Now it is time to decide about research. A good time to save. Who wants to continue?

 

[Ronnie1]

Just to refresh, we are at permanent war with Capac and permanent peace with unknown? Should be very interesting, I've never played with either of the permanent options. I assume there will be some sort of notice when we meet the permanent peace AI! As for the victory condition. Are we agreed that Domination will be faster than Diplomacy?

That's a lot of floodplains, are we going for the Cottage or the Farm? I think mostly cottages, maybe just enough farms to support mining the hills. I can play when ever, or I can follow later.

I notice there is no sign of Capac, did his name start on the score sheet at the begining of time?

Research Mining-BW to chop/whip settlers. Maybe a reason to farm some of the flood plains early in the game and switch cottages later. Once Chariots are available, we roll through the nearest neighbors as we research towards Courthouses?

 

[da_Vinci]

Stone nearby ... go for Mids this time? or Oracle? What about a city 4w of Thebes? Gets the cows, fish and stone. Or south of the rice?

Mine - BW sounds good to me. Settler after this worker?

R1, feel free to take it from here, I've got some RL distractions right now.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I'll play now. I PM'd the other GK's earlier to see if I could muster some more interest. I'll have a save up in an hour or so.

 

[Ronnie1]

I renamed the save Gypsy Kings!
I started with my normal amount of success with the RNG Gods. 1 of our warriors died while defending a hill. I felt it prudent to start a new one in Thebes. Settler had been building since completion of the first worker. We are alone with Cathy from what I can see. We will need astronomy early for a quick Domination. We should not open the Meditation line and go for GS's to move through Optics and Astronomy. Capac is nowhere in sight, good for us. Do we give Cathy a chance to found some cities for us? Do we take her out early so we found where we want to? We are almost to BW, our single worker is very busy. Good Luck!!! Next

The save

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146819&stc=1&d=1170136894

The autolog

Spoiler :

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Tech learned: Mining

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 28 (3160 BC)

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Thebes finishes: Worker

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Thebes begins: Settler

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)
Warrior loses to: Barbarian Lion (0.08/2)
11&#37; odds, go figure!!

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Thebes begins: Warrior
Thebes's borders expand
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 38 (2860 BC)

Turn 39 (2830 BC)

Turn 40 (2800 BC)

 

[Ronnie1]

I've been lurking over at the Murky Waters camp. They just got MM at about 1640 (Turn 349) and they have a GE on the way to the build site. That will give them about 45 turns worth of voting to beat us. We might be in trouble.

 

[Ronnie1]

Lurking in the CFR-W camp, these guys are headed for MM at ~1100AD, very fast!!

 

[da_Vinci]

I've been lurking over at the Murky Waters camp. They just got MM at about 1640 (Turn 349) and they have a GE on the way to the build site. That will give them about 45 turns worth of voting to beat us. We might be in trouble.

You forgot to mention their diplo board. F+24 with Vicky! It is insane!

They are F+12 or better with 5 civs, and have 24% pop themselves. Biggest rival has 8%, so maybe they get 5x6 or 30% from their friends, putting them only 6% away. Or maybe their "friends" will vote as strangely as ours did, and it won't be so easy. They don't have steel yet (res at 0 now, but I suspect they could make it in 10 or less) so for now war pace may be slowing.

They seem to be using shared war to good diplo effect. Unless some friends get uppity, they have a good shot to beat us.

We had our first UN victory vote on turn 346, UN done at turn 340 ... so we beat them to it if that is any consolation. Took us 58 turns after building UN to get the votes. Maybe it will take them as long?

Here is the current tracking board ...

CFR -550
Flying -190
Choko 125
Smurkz 815
CDZ 845
Memphis 1202
Real Ms 1610
Murky 1646
Geezers 1730

GK 1766

FBG 1280 and died on the vine

Geezers have UN, 18 turns to get the votes (they just got re-elected Sec Gen). That would be six votes at one every three turns, and is it every 4th vote that is re-election? So we have to survive five votes there. Don't think they have the diplo lineup, and they may be out of steam in their wars. Good chance they won't beat us, I think.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Well done, Ronnie1!

Are you sure we are really isolated? Maybe other landmasses might be reachable by galleys. That mountain wall to the E looks suspicious to me.

I see Thebes as a pure commerce/science city. Cottages there. OTOH, dV's desert inn, with lots of FP's and 2 sea resources looks like a prime GP farm and FP's could be farmed there, but I'd wait to settle it after 3 cities south and west bound. dV has spotted 2 nice sites: the one by fish/cow/stone and the other by rice. After these, the desert tile in the bottleneck (N of a cow)could be our production powerhouse. It also has obvious strategic importance, connecting seas and locking our land.

I'd pump a couple of warriors while city grows, for some fogbusting, then we could pop/choprush the 1st settler. After that, war chariot rush? Or peaceful settling? It might depend on copper location and Cathy's access to it.