SGOTM 03 - Team One

[mboza]

Apologies to everyone that already knows this all:

Instead of imageshack, you can also just add attachments to the forum posts. Either click "post reply", or the "Go advanced" button at the bottom of the quick reply box, and there is a paperclip next to the options to change fonts. There is a limit on the total size of your attachments though.

And when you do paste the screen shot into ms paint or whatever, double check that it is saved as a jpeg, rather than a .bmp file, as these are far smaller.

If someone other than TDK does make the first scout move, then they will also need to save the game, and upload it so that TDK can start from after the scout move. (or take the first 20 turns themselves) This has been discussed in the maintenance thread, and it would be embarassing to get caught and disqualified before even founding Moscow in place.

 

[amh52]

Sorry I couldn't wait...

I think we should move but I am not sure where yet. I propose to move the settler E-NE and the scout N-NW or N-NE and take another screenshot. If there is no objection I will do it tonight and upload the game. I have only saved it so far.

 

[TDK]

The settler should move 1 east and reveal the tile with the red cross. In my opinion, the red cross is also a candidate for our capital site. It will have 1 fish, 1 clam, 2 floodplains and the river to make it a super science city whit lots of potential to run specialists and pop an academy for us. The drawback to this site is a slower initial production.

The blue cross is another possibility but I don't like it because it blocks a lot of land and we will not be able to build cities within 2 tiles of that spot.

TDK

 

[mdy]

One vote for blue cross.

Either site could be used as a science powerhouse, and could run specialists to get us an academy, but the production of red cross is really too small for the first city. By settling at blue cross we gain a lot of productive tiles with the food to work them all in exchange for 1 flood plain and 1 spices. It would not lose us any tiles because we could always found a fishing village on the spices later. We are expansive so the loss of the fresh water bonus is not too important.

The settler could move onto the forest between red and blue crosses, so we
could settle either site next turn.

 

[mboza]

I would feel happier about the blue cross when we see the scouts move next turn. I think the combination of red cross and a production city north of the stone, or even settle in place and on/south of the stone will be stronger than the blue cross and a spice city, but it depends on whether the island has space for 3 cities or not. But the blue cross would fit very well for bureaucracy etc.

So my vote is currently for the settler to move to between the two, and a scout move of N-NW. The red cross is not forest, so we can settle either next turn. There is a hint of blue and forest NW-NW of the scout, which might be the end of a short river. Is N,N,NW a sea square or jungle?

 

[amh52]

At this point I would choose the blue cross. I'd like to keep the stone in the fat cross.

I was also considering the plain hill where the scout stands. I think it might be better for the 2nd city although we would lose the forest and the plain hill. If we settle on the stone I think we would lack food unless there is some more up north. The grassland further north would be the best for city placement but there is a lot of jungle around and we still need to find more food. It would also take another 2 turns to get there.

I believe the square N-N-NW of the scout is jungle.

Anyway I agree that we should do one more move before deciding.

 

[TDK]

amh, can you move the settler to the forest and one more scout move and then we can continue the discussion.

TDK

 

[mdy]

Another possibility would be to settle in place and put a second city on the hill the scout is currently standing on. The cities would overlap by two tiles, but as cities rarely reach size 20 this is not a problem. We would lose a plains hill but this would be compensated for by having an extra grassland hill in the fat cross.

If the settler was moved one tile NE of it`s current location we could settle in three of the locations (current location,red,blue) next turn, or settle on the plains hill in two turns.

 

[TDK]

I think the added bonus of seeing those extra seatiles warrants a 1E1NE move by the settler. We could spot another fish.

TDK

 

[amh52]

Ok, I made the move and uploaded the file. I don't think I'll have time to play this weekend so TDK or someone else can play 20 turns.

I am tempted to settle on the stone and keep the red cross for a 2nd city. We lose an extra turn but we would also secure a spot north in case there is another AI close by.

The blue cross would give a stronger capital but I just don't like the city distribution afterwards. I am ok to do that if the majority of you prefer it and maybe it is the best option after all.

Even the red cross would be ok if we use the whip. But then we would need to hurry a settler up north.

What do you all think?

 

[mdy]

What about the plains hill next to the stone? We could still found another good city in the original position. Settling on the stone would lose us the fish, it might also stop us putting a third city further north, it looks as though the northern coast of our island might be just two tiles north of our scout.

 

[TDK]

I am happy with either spot, but would still prefer red cross.
[Edit:] Now that I think of it, I think Red Cross is the superior choice. It will have by far the biggest food surpluss of any city we can found. and that is exactly what we need for a GP program and for producing settlers. I really don't see what blue cross(or any other proposed) gives us other than some early production which Red Cross will have by using the whip? All I see is a substandard capital.

Other outstanding issues:
What should we produce and invent?
Should we produce a warrior and then switch to work boat when we hit fishing?

I will play later today if we can all agree on the direction of the game.

TDK

 

[mdy]

I still think the plains hill will be the better capital. It will have access to two sea foods instead of one for red cross, so plains hill will build settlers faster, and will enable us to whip quicker. The city tile will also produce 2 hammers instead of one so our first warrior/ workboats will be built quicker at plains hill. We are expansive so those 2 hammers will be converted into three for building workers quicker. The lack of production at red cross is really a fatal weakness for a first city, plains hill however could be a good all round production/commerce city which is what you need for your first city.

If we settled at plains hill we could still found our second city in the original position which would give us a good GP farm/commerce city, I just don`t think a city like that is what we need for our first city.

Productio wise I agree warrior, then workboat is best wherever we found our city. Tech wise I think we agreed on fishing then bronze working.

 

[TDK]

Red Cross has a fish and a clam.

TDK

 

[mdy]

I see the other sea food. I still think the plains hill will get our civilization built up quicker. Perhaps we should wait for the rest of the team to post their ideas before settling anywhere?

 

[mboza]

I would be tempted to settle on the red cross, and on the stone. That gives us a potent GP farm, and a good production city. (TDK, me, amh52 suggests stone then red cross)

Alternatively, settling the plains hill and the starting flood plain gives us a slightly stronger production city, but a weaker GP farm. (mdy)

hamfist and Astrum have not yet voiced a preference.

I think both the plains hill and the stone give a city +1h, so I would rather build on the stone, take the rice and leave the fish for the red cross instead of building on the hill.

I might have to go and play with world builder and excel for a bit. I think the extra hammer from the hill is worse than working the flood plain, but it might depend on how long it takes to get to bronze working to be able to whip.

 

[TDK]

Mboza,

just to clarify, I would settle red cross first but I can live with stone city and then red cross.
If you have time to play around with some numbers please consider red cross first too.

TDK

 

[mboza]

Gah, all that time setting up a game, and I discover I left the difficulty on noble.

The stone does give the extra hammer if you build a city on it.

I prefer red cross first, but I am working through some numbers.

If we start with the warrior, then switch to wb after fishing, we start losing 1h/turn from the warrior after 10 turns, and we cannot reset that count.

We get a 20% bonus to research for bronze working, as we know mining.

Settling the red cross site now, we get to whip a settler on turn 40, having built a workboat, researched fishing, bw (turn 28), and 158 bulbs towards the next techs.

 

[mdy]

I have just been doing some tests using a map I made in the worldbuilder. The results are:

red cross, then stone:

Fishing 3700bc
Warrior 3640bc
workboat 3100bc
Bronze Working 3040bc
Settler 2590bc
Sailing/found stone city 2530bc

Stone then red cross:

Warrior 3700bc
Fishing 3670bc
Workboat 3280bc
Bronze Working 3010bc
Settler 2800bc
Found red cross 2710 bc
Sailing 2500bc

Plain/ Flood Plain

Warrior 3760bc
Fishing 3670bc
Workboat 3220bc
Bronze Working 3010bc
Settler 2800bc
Found Flood Plains 2770bc
Sailing 2470bc

Another thing to take into accoun is that if we found stone first, then red cross will not be able to work any sea food until the first border expansion, and the stone city will not be able to work two strong food tiles until iron working making whipping less efficent there in the medium term.

Both the red cross and the flood plains cities could support 8 GP.

Taking the above into account I still think that plains hill/flood plains is better than red cross stone as they both give equally good GP farms but the plains hill gives the stronger production city.

 

[mboza]

I get:
building on the hill nets us a settler by turn 36, (whipping the 2nd pop to finish it. By turn 40 we have 1 warrior, wb, settler, 17 hammers but only 114 lightbulbs, and 1 pop in Moscow.

building on the stone is two turns behind, a settler by turn 38 (need to work clams instead of fish), but is slightly better for tech, with 130 bulbs.

Big difference is that the red cross finishes with 2 pop, and the others finish with one.

Good point about the red cross second plan requiring a border pop.

I think the blue cross site is now pointless, far better to found on the hill and pick up the extra hammer, and the clams in the city area from the start.

So the choice is close between the red cross, and the plains hill.

The advantage of the red cross is the fish and you get both fp. 4 pop could support 5 GP. Building on the start site costs you 1f from the fish, and 1f from a flood plain, though eventually you have slightly better squares for the last couple of workers.