SGOTM 03 - Team One

[mdy]

If we continue the war with Mao he will probably capitulate soon. If he becomes vassal of someone else it will start another war. If it is Alex, it might be good for us as we wouldn't have to declare on him. I am not sure who else it could be but there is a small risk there depending on who takes him. I don't think we should take him as a vassal if he offers as it would give us a negative modifier with all other civs.

I agree we don`t want Mao as a vassal. If he becomes a vassal of someone else, the only plausible candidate is Alexander as everyone else either does not like him enough or is not powerful enough. If he does declare war we may need to whip out few extra units in Bejing/Shanghai to hold those cities.

Do we want to upgrade some triremes to caravels so we don't have any nasty surprise? It is pretty cheap.

I would upgrade the triemes, and send one to contact America, it could scout the size of Alexanders reserve in his capital on the way. We could upgrade the galley to a galleon at the same time. Maybe we could ask some of the civs we are pleased/friendly with for a gift of money to pay for this?

If we seem to be running short to get the GE, maybe trading for Steel and putting in the Ironworks will help with hiring more Engineers in St P. I think a switch back to producing GE points in St P now might be a good idea, as it will cost us less GPP to produce him now as compared to later.

This would require a major tech detour to Chemistry as well as requiring us to build 2 more forges in low productivity cities. The Ironworks costs 1050 hammers by itself, so building it will take a long time. An easier way to get a Great Engineer would be to remove all the specialits in Moscow. If we do this then St Petesburg will produce a Great Engineer in 25 turns time. If we did this we would want to build a university in Moscow before an observatory.

we need to delay the engineer in St. Petersburg anyway as all gpp produced there after the engineer pops are wasted.

I don`t think that matters, we are only ever going to generate one GE in St Pete, so whenever we get it the effects are the same. Delaying it will only make it more difficult to generate the engineer in the future.

Another interesting tactic to pursue would be to build a Confucian and Jewish monsatery and see if we can split the field a bit more by spreading religion to other cultures. breaking up the Buddhist and Hindu blocs seems to be a good way to get more votes for us.

If we did this it would have to be soon, as scientific method will stop us building monastries.

 

[hamfist]

This would require a major tech detour to Chemistry as well as requiring us to build 2 more forges in low productivity cities. The Ironworks costs 1050 hammers by itself, so building it will take a long time. An easier way to get a Great Engineer would be to remove all the specialits in Moscow. If we do this then St Petesburg will produce a Great Engineer in 25 turns time. If we did this we would want to build a university in Moscow before an observatory.

I wasn't suggesting researching steel, I was suggesting trading for it later and using the Ironworks to generate the GE out of the order I had suggested.

I don`t think that matters, we are only ever going to generate one GE in St Pete, so whenever we get it the effects are the same. Delaying it will only make it more difficult to generate the engineer in the future.

I misspoke, that was the point I was trying to make. I used wasted because I think that we will ever produce the GE in time if we don't do it now.

So is it agreed that we go for the GE now and save him? Or should we go for a different Great Person next?

The Education trade with Hatty will definitely allow us to do a naval upgrade.

 

[TDK]

I don`t think that matters, we are only ever going to generate one GE in St Pete, so whenever we get it the effects are the same. Delaying it will only make it more difficult to generate the engineer in the future.

I think that we will ever produce the GE in time if we don't do it now.

So is it agreed that we go for the GE now and save him? Or should we go for a different Great Person next?

This is not so. We agree that we will only get one engineer, right? So if we pop him now, any gpp produced thereafter are wasted. The optimal cause is to pop him just before we need him. Moscow is only at 3 times as many gpp/turn and St. Pete will catch up easily in the future. Essentially, all gpp produced in st. Pete after the engineer pops are gpp wasted in Moscow. We can use all the scientists we can pop: Radio, Physics, Scientific Method, Mass Media to name a few VERY expensive techs...

I would not upgrade too many ships until we really need them, Alex will be scared. I agree we should preassure China into a vassalage agreement with Alex.

The more I think of it, I feel a showdown with Egypt is necessary unless they get into a war.

TDK

 

[hamfist]

The GE is a opportunity cost. Moscow can currently generate 30 GPP/turn, and StP can currently generate 10 GPP/turn. This means that at some point, Moscow will have to not produce 20 GPP/turn if we want the Engineer. I am suggesting we do the Engineer now (almost now, probably in about 5 more turns)as there will be less turns spent not utilizing Moscows full potential of GPP generation. Looking at the save right now, the GE will arrive in 25 turns. If we switch Moscow down to One scientist specialist only, Moscow will pop in 27 turns. Speaking of which, we should probably switch to an Observatory in Moscow so that we can run 3 scientists later.

The other option is to leave the specialists as they are and hope for a GE in Moscow in 11 turns more.

I'm still not clear as to when we should do the GE, but I think most of the relevant information has been discussed. TDK seems to say later, mdy seems to think now. I think now. Maybe we can get an opinion from the remaining members as to when we should generate this GE. Once the GE is generated we can turn off the Engineer in StP and get even more hammers.

I won't bring up other strategy points in this post, as I don't want to mix topics. We should put this topic to bed.

 

[TDK]

It would be good to hear from other teammembers.

If we let the GP-program run as is, we have:

Moscow at 426/750gpp and 30gpp/turn

St. Pete at 506/750gpp and 10gpp/turn

This means Moscow will pop a gp in 11 turns and then we have:

Moscow at 6/900gpp and 30gpp/turn

St. Pete at 616/900gpp and 10gpp/turn

St. Pete would then pop an engineer in 29turns(616+10*29=906) with Moscow hitting 900 the turn after(6+30*30=906).

If we assign another scientist we will put the engineer back another slot which I would prefer. I'm also ok with just popping it according to the above, in which case we should build a university in Moscow as we cannot assign any more scientists anyway. So the question is: Do we pop the engineer first, second or third. I would certainly prefer third.

Speaking of universities, we need to decide if we wan't to build the Oxford University. If we wan't to do this we should rush universities in 6 cities and Beijing should do this soon after it comes out of resistence. The other cities should switch now. I'm not sure about this, but we are building universities with a discount and Oxford will be cheap in Moscow with Stone and chopping.
If we go for Oxford I think we should time 6 universities with Moscow(11 turns) and prepare to chop Oxford with all the forests we have left.

note: Shanghai can work the corn outside of Beijing while Beijing is in resistance.

TDK

 

[amh52]

I would say that we should pop the GE only when we need it. At the moment GS are more important. The only reason I would pop it early is if we want to reassign the Engineer in StPete to a better tile and there are none (for now at least). So I would just keep things as they are. If we do this I would also agree that an Observatory has priority over a University in Moscow.

We can't build Oxford in Moscow as we already have 2 national wonders.

 

[TDK]

We can't build Oxford in Moscow as we already have 2 national wonders.

It appears an academy is not a national wonder so we can build Oxford. I looked at it some more and I think we should do it, we don't have a pressing need for units and it will really boost our science.

TDK

 

[TDK]

BTW, where is our work boat, I thought we would use it in Shanghai but I don't see it.

TDK

 

[mdy]

I now think that the engineer could be delayed.

Building Oxford would be useful so I would whip a library, then a unviversity in Bejing as soon as it comes out of resistance. To get it quickly we would have to switch production in the two northern cities to a university as soon as the maceman is built, and whip them when we can.

I don`t think we have the workboat anymore the unit list states that we currently have 0 workboats.

 

[TDK]

We need 6 universities for the Oxford and St. Pete will have to be the last one. If we change to universities now, Moscow and St. Pete(library 5, university 6) will build universities in 11 turns, Rostov in 9, Yaroslavl' and Novgorod will have to change now and whip before 11 turns and Beijing will have 5 turns to whip out a library and a university which is doable(6 turns of resistence leaves 5 for whipping). If we revolt to free religion - I think we should - this timetable will be pushed back a turn, of course.

TDK

 

[hamfist]

It looks like the immediate GP plan is to keep trying for scientists. At least that's clear.

Oxford is a very good thing to have, but I'm not convinced we have enough military yet (convince me ). We could switch to some Universities now, and then move StP to a University to coincide with the building of the last one in other cities???

I think Oxford could delay a bit. An Observatory in Moscow will let us run another scientist. We have other specialists contaminating the pool and without another scientist we run the risk of generating anything but a scientist over the next 2 Great people.

 

[mboza]

BTW, where is our work boat, I thought we would use it in Shanghai but I don't see it.
TDK

sorry, I used it to add the clams outside Moscow's fat cross to trade them for gpt, as the one outside shanghai was still covered by Beijing's culture, and I could not see any mention of the workboat here.

I think I actually missesd that Shanghai had two seafood, and only sawe the one that is still Chinese controlled.

If StP will pop a GP in 29 turns, that that sounds like the best plan.

Oxford is worth getting, as Moscow currently produces a huge amount of our total bulbs.

 

[mdy]

Oxford is a very good thing to have, but I'm not convinced we have enough military yet (convince me )

We could do with a few more catapults to replace our losses when we take Nanjing, and maybe a few longbows for garrison duty. However China is very weak so unless some one else declares war on us we can probably delay building them until the universities are built, though this would mean a pause in our offensive against China once Nanjing is captured.

 

[hamfist]

once Nanjing is captured.

That's one thing that worries me. There are 2 highly promoted longbows there and Nanjing is on a hill.

Longbow 1:
CR III + Drill I
+100% City Defense (+75% CRIII + +25% Base City Def for Longbow)
+50% Hill (+25% for Hill + +25% Bonus for Longbow)
+10% vs Melee (CR III)
2 first strikes

Longbow 2:
CR II + Drill I
+70% City Defense (+45% CRII + +25% Base City Def for Longbow)
+50% Hill (+25% for Hill + +25% Bonus for Longbow)
2 First Strikes

Those longbows will chew maces. 3 to 4 maces per Longbow probably. Not sure if we need to reinforce???

 

[TDK]

Oxford is a very good thing to have, but I'm not convinced we have enough military yet (convince me ).

Nanjing can be taken if you burn the catapults(after promoting them to inflict collateral damage). That should reduce the number of maces lost, you can also bring extras down from Beijing(Shanghai is over-garrisoned anyway, you could replace with a longbow+axe from there). We will need to replace the cats with trebuchets, we can start producing these as cities complete the university. We can spend some time walking some maces to Chengdu and see if it's still without walls and culture defenses.

I think Shanghai should produce work boats, it can do so very efficiently by working the corn and whipping. We should also bring in a worker to improve the cow.

We could switch to some Universities now, and then move StP to a University to coincide with the building of the last one in other cities???

I outlined exactly such a plan above, it calls for St. Pete to spend all 11 turns to time the university with Moscow(because it needs a library too). I think Yaroslavl' should whip now for 2 pop and overflow into the university, it should then be set to max growth and whip again when it reaches 6 pop. Novgorod and Rostov could complete the universities quite fast if you are worried about troop build-up.

I think Oxford could delay a bit. An Observatory in Moscow will let us run another scientist. We have other specialists contaminating the pool and without another scientist we run the risk of generating anything but a scientist over the next 2 Great people.

Just so you know, the Oxford will allow 3 scientist specialists. I saw that our artist is 25%, I have no idea why that is, hopefully it's a rounding error(or something) that will abate over time. Should we pop an extra engineer in Moscow, we could use it for the heroic epic in St. Pete.

TDK

 

[mdy]

I saw that our artist is 25%, I have no idea why that is, hopefully it's a rounding error(or something) that will abate over time.

This is because we have built the National Epic in Moscow. The only way to reduce the chance of producing an artist is to higher more specialists or build more wondes there.

Should we pop an extra engineer in Moscow, we could use it for the heroic epic in St. Pete.

Maybe we could save an engineer for the UN and higher more scientists in Moscow once Oxford is built?

 

[hamfist]

So it sounds like the plan over the next turnset is:

Full out on getting Oxford.

Reinforce invasion stack from the north.

Whip work boats out of Shanghai.

I've got the save and will play tonight.

 

[hamfist]

I have uploaded the save after 4 turns because something unplanned has occurred and I would like the team input before continuing. I have captured Nanjing, etc. Alex has declared on us, but Mao Zedong is not his Vassal.

I am of the opinion that we should get peace now with Mao and send our army northy against a fairly weak Alexander.

Summary so far:
Pre turn:
MM rostov for More Hammers
Switch Shanghai to Workboat
Send LB+Axe to Beijing to relieve Maces there.
Send Galley back to homeland to pick up more forces

Turn 1:
Gandhi asks for help (Paper). I say OK
Printing Press is in. Start Scientific Method
Nanjing defense to 11%

Turn 2:
Start Library in St. P
Start University in Novgorod
Mao moves a Horse Archer into Nanjing
Nanjing reduced to 0%. Save all cats for next turn

Turn 3:
Take Nanjing losing 3 cats an 1 mace. Turned out much better than hoped.

Turn 4:
Alex declares war and send 2 triremes and 2 empty galleys into our waters.
mao Zedong converts to Confucianism.
Upgrade east coast triremes to Caravels.
Gold now low. We should consider the trade with Hatty.
2 Maces can take Argos in 3 turns.

Should we get peace with Mao and just go after Alex???
Should we trade Education to Hatty??

I will continue my turnset once I hear from you.

 

[amh52]

Good job on Nanjing. I would say make peace with Mao and focus on Alex. It looks like we need more cats.

I would be careful, those 2 Galleys are most likely not empty. Troops loaded on boats are not shown anymore. I would keep the 2 macemen around StPete for now and maybe upgrade the warrior if possible. Get we get some cash out of Mao in exchange for peace?

I am still not convinced about trading edu to Hatty. I agree it would be very useful but I do not want to push the tech race. On the other hand we might get a demand for it soon. So... maybe we should do it?

 

[mdy]

Those two galleys look very dangerous, they could land 4 units on our only source of iron next turn and we can`t stop them. I would upgrade the warrior in St Pete immediatly, and cancel the goto orders on the 2 maces next to them, they should stay near the likely invasion point. I would promote them to combat 1. Remember Alexander is aggressive so any maces he brings with us are going to chew our maces up as they will have 1/2 additional promotions, espesially if they had shock. I would therefore immediatly whip a crossbowman in St Pete, as they are the best counters to maces/crossbows.
We need to do this now as we could lose our iron soon, so maybe we should whip one or two more in Moscow/ The northern cities at the same time.

I think St Pete should build land units until we have a big enough stack to take on Greece. I would also build galleons instead of a university in Rostov to sink the ememy fleet as well as to transport our troops. The galley should be upgraded to a galleon.

To get money for the upgrades we could ask civs that are friendly/pleased with us for a gift of gold, I have found this to be quite succesful in the past. I would not trade for engineering with Hate, it would spped up her tech pace and we don`t really need engineering at the moment, Egypt is going to be our rival at the UN so getting a - modifier for refusing a request from her is not a problem. If asking for gifts does not get us enough gold I would sell some tech to the less advanced civs for gold.

The stack near Nanjing needs to be moved so it can defend the land border with Greece. I would actually stay at war with Mao, he is no threat to us, and this would allow us to take the rest of his cities without picking up any "you declared war on our friend modifiers". He is also now Confunician so he would be an excellent civ to bribe other civs into attacking for the "mutual military struggle bonus". In the extremly unlikely event that he manages to put together an effective counter attack, it should be relativly easy to make peace with him at any time.