Good point. It doesn't make sense to move all the troops to kill Alex, without killing Mao.
As for lightbulbing vs. academy, we've built two academies now, one in St. Pete, one in Moscow. We have another GS coming in 3 turns. We have no other city that deserves an academy other than perhaps Rostov. I think the discussion becomes settling the GS vs. lightbulbing. I am in favor of using our next GS (assuming we dont get jobbed by the RNG) on helping research Education.
Have we agreed what tech to use the free Liberalism tech on? I think we should consider Nationalism even though it is 400 beakers cheaper than Astronomy. We would be only 3 techs and 8500 beakers from Cossacks and right now I think we are further behind on domination than we are on teching to Mass Media.
We have some units that are sitting in our northern cities. Do we want to move some of them to the warfront? We could use more than one spear with our invasion force and there's one in Novograd. I think we can move at least 3 or 4 of the units in St. Pete, Novograd and Rostov. It's not like anyone can sneak attack us from that angle other than Ghandi.
Remember, Moscow needs to be running an engineer! If we keep running an engineer we should get another GE from Moscow in the next 3 GP or so. Could be used for the FP on Rome's island.
Are we planning on wiping Caesar out? I would think we should take his whole continent and leave him smoldering in Ravenna .
I will be out of town starting tomorrow and will be back Thursday Jan 11. If my turns comes, skip me.
I still lean toward Astronomy over Nationalism. Galleons are great for both offense and defense on the water, and our science cities will benefit from observatories.
I've changed my thinking on the gifting of cities; I don't think it will work. But, I'm still trying to think of ways to reduce the overhead involved in conquering cities. When I war, I usually try to take every continent or civ completely. This eliminates cultural border competition and the "motherland" whining. But maybe in this game we only need to capture a few cities on each island.
I'm just not sure. I'm trying to figure out if it's more efficient to attack in two waves. First, take the major AI cities (those near us and with high population). This would do two things: give us good cities and reduce the AI tech rate. (The tech rate seems very quick in this game. The second wave of city captures would be our rush to get to 51% of population. We can be doing this while we're working on those last few techs and building the UN.
Another thought: I think we should put any great engineer we get from here on out on ice and use it to help build the UN. Also, I think any scientist should help us research techs. Sci Method and Physics are both G Sci favorites. Both of those will probably be more efficient than any new academy. After Physics, we'll want to be generating only great engineers (for UN building) or great artists (who love Radio and Mass Media).
Do we know what it will take--what kind of +?? diplo modifier--for a civ to vote for us in the UN diplo victory vote? I think aggressive AI makes it harder.
Also, do we know enough about the map to know which cities we want? If we can get to a dominating power rating, we can probably be everyone's worst enemy and still be okay.
Well, with my experience in the King of India adventure, which was emperor and Aggressive AIs, Friendly civs will vote for you unless they have a higher relationship with the opponent. In Aggressive AIs, it is more difficult to reach the Friendly status, but one it is reached, we are ensured of their vote. I'm not sure if any AIs will vote just by being Pleased, since this is Agressive AIs. I'm sure there are numbers somewhere, but I don't know where to look for them.
1. Engineer in moscow.
2. Move northern units to the front.
3. Set up for war with Caesar
4. next GS will research as much as Education as possible.
5. save all GEs
I do also want to repeat a point that Iainuki has made a couple of times: we need to come up with a diplomatic plan very soon. If we can get some votes without having to own the cities by virtue of civs who are Friendly towards us, that will be very helpful. Switching to Gandhi's religion and trading properly might get him to Friendly fairly quickly. But I'm not sure if that's more efficient than just conquering our way to the proper population.
If we're not going to try to make any friends, then we're probably approaching the point where we need to look at the map and say: here are all of the cities we want for a diplo victory. We might even want to implement the gifting of cities idea simply to get rid of existing cultural boundaries. (I still haven't checked to see if civs will accept another civ's city though. Maybe they only want the ones we found which are close to them or want their own cities back after we take them.)
You need 51% to be elected and for the other U.N. proposals, except
you 62% for a diplomatic victory.
You don't have to build the U.N. to win diplomatic. You only need to be
number 1 or 2 in population. So, no need to rush for it.
Mao is the number 1 civ, right? Is he also the number 1 or 2 in population?
Maybe you should let him live and kill all his friends and make friends with
the AIs who don't like him.
The reason we're racing for the UN is not the AIs in our game, it's the human teams in the other games.
I still think we need a diplomatic plan, and I also agree that we need to start focusing more on the warmaking aspect of our game.
I still think we should take Astronomy with Liberalism, for two major reasons. The first is that Astronomy is a key military tech on this map. Galleons beat everything before frigates, especially with the coastal defense bonus. They also move at speed 5 (with circumnavigation) instead of speed 3, and carry 3 units instead of 2, meaning we need less than two-thirds as many boats to transport our units. The other reason is that Astronomy increases our science rate, while Nationalism doesn't: the lion's share of our science is going to be coming from Moscow and St. Pete, so two observatories will produce a significant effect.
I looked at the save briefly in order to examine our overall game plan. We will achieve a domination victory--which we want to avoid!--with 33% of the population and 51% of the land. To vote ourselves victors, we'll need 62% of the population. These numbers are different than I'm used to, but that's probably because we're playing with so many civs on a standard-sized map.
Right now, our cities' populations sum to 47 and we're at 6.78% of the world's population (Hatty is the most at 8%). If all cities stayed at their current sizes, this means we'd need 300 more pop points (total 347) to have 50% of the world's population and nearly 400 more pop points (total 430) to have 62%.
We have to get to 62% population while remaining under 51% land. I think we need to be careful about what cities we capture and keep. We need a very high food to land ratio for cities we plan to keep.
Because of culture, it's going to be difficult to simply capture good cities and not capture the others. But if we capture cities and return them to their original owners, I think the culture comes back in full force right away.
I think I've read that the city's old-owner culture decays away after a while, but I don't know the details of that. I think our best bet will be to give slightly crappy cities to nearby non-founding civs (maybe after appropriate pillaging )
Also, setting the science rate to roughly balance, we're at about 270T minus some great people pops away from building the UN. And we'll need another 43 or so turns to get Nationalism and Military Tradition (trade for Music) for our cossacks. So, we're probably about 300T+UN building away from finishing the game, if we can get our conquering in order.
Those numbers are rough because we'll incur more costs with more cities, but our commerce rate will also increase with bigger, better cities.
Just wanted to get those thoughts in circulation here.
EDIT: Athen looks to be exactly the type of city we're looking to keep!
EDIT2: We also want lots of happy and maybe health resources if we're going to grow our cities large. And 300T isn't a lot of time to grow cities, so we might have to ( ) go easy on the whip. We might think about switching to universal suffrage for cash rushing when we get closer to the end.
One other thing I ought to mention right now: we need a 6th good city soon so we can get the universities up for Oxford. How do we feel about taking out Greece to establish a base for future conquests? I'm thinking that we don't want to take on the score leaders at this point, but nibble on the weak ones until our larger size gives us better production.
It sounds like we are at a critical junction right now. Given the population problem, we need to develop a plan. It sounds like we need a combination of diplomatic skills and food rich cities.
we have identified one city: Athens, that fits that criteria Maybe we capture Sparta on the way to Athens and gift it to the smallest far away civ, that might be inclined to be our friend.
We also might want to look at the various civs and determine who will be our friend. Gandhi is always a nice guy, especially if we go against Tokogawa in the election. Who else? Hatty? Cyrus?
We know who the bad guys will be: Tokogawa, Mao, Alex, Caesar. Who else?
We also need to decide who we are going to attack and when. We want maces and cats for a Roman War. Probably for a Chinese War as well. Or do we wait for Cossacks?
I am all for taking out Greece now. Lee says hold off.
In order to keep Greece we will have to make a massive military commited when China comes our way again. I feel we can take out Rome with a lot less of a military commitment.
Does anyone have any experience in only taking out half of a civ at a time? I'm wondering if we want to only conquer about half of Rome, and roll through Greece to take half of China. If we sufficiently weaken a civ, it will never recover and our cossacks will face no resistance.
Once we get a large enough land base and our power rating is high, I highly doubt we'll be sneak-attacked. At least not in any meaningful way.
As if we don't have enough to do, I think we also need to have excellent intel on all neighboring continents. That will help us plan our conquerings.
You guys seem to very well in foreign relations, 12 leaders are annoyed.
Only Louis is pleased. Maybe you should play along with the bad guys
and pick one of them as your ally. Mao comes to mind. (+7 for sharing favourite his civic), shouldn't be too hard to make him friendly. Share some wars with him.
You've collected already a lot of "you traded with our worst enemies" points. This could be an obstacle get better relations.
There's a lot going on here and my time is short, so I'm going to dispense with direct quotes.
The reason I don't think we should take on China until after the medieval era is the chu-ko-nu. That unit is simply annoying to beat through and negates the usual city-raider troops one uses in the medieval era, the maceman.
The reason so many leaders are annoyed with us is that Aggressive AIs gives us a hidden -4 penalty with everyone. With the additional -1 (-2?) hidden penalty from Monarch difficulty, that's enough to push leaders who don't have some reason to like us (lasting open borders or resources agreements) to annoyed. The "trading with our worst enemy" penalties are a problem I was hoping to avoid: we had a few on my last turnset, but I was really hoping we'd come up with a plan before now to prevent that. However, the holidays intervened and it didn't happen, so we have to play with what we've got. The worst-enemies effect in this game is a giant mess because the religious blocs are fractured and many of the worst-enemies are not mutual. My intuition says that our best hope is to find the bloc any friends we have (Louis?) are in, and then try to make allies there. We aren't going to get favored civic bonuses this game: most of them arrive far too late to do us any good, and the rest aren't good for our civilization.
The problem with partially taking out civs is culture. We're not Creative and we don't have the Sistine, so beating back established culture will be difficult.
I'm not afraid of the AI's military efforts on an archipelago later in the game. Once we start growing, we shouldn't have much trouble with the defensive side of the military.
Sounds good to me. I'd like to think a little further about our city-acquisition strategy before we actually start the invasion, but that shouldn't interfere with this turnset.
Pre-flight First we need to have an initial campaign plan in order to plan the logistics of the war. So here is my first look:
We can land in the forest next to Arretium and get some defensive bonus. There are presently five defenders in there: 2 horse archers, a spear, an axe and an archer, plus several ships. We will need at least ten healthy units to survive the initial attack. We should probably plan on landing a minimum of 14 units of various types.
Caesar will only be able to attack that initial landing with mounted units so we need to take several spears for the initial defense. We have six galleys within range of the landing. Well need more. Arretium has a 20% cultural defensive bonus, so well want to take three catapults with us. Well want to take a few spears in the mix for the mounted units. We have mostly melee units. We have two spears and a HA on the main island I move those southward. I identify 13 units that we can put on the initial landing and upgrade three axes to maces.
International relations are a mess. That will take some analysis to figure out.
Hire an engineer in Moscow. Here we go.
IBT Yaro: cat => horse archer
1040 Ferry over two units.
IBT Mao demands we cancel our deals with Gandhi. Not on your life. A GS is born in St. Pete. I save him for Education.
1070 we now have 14 units of the first wave in position on iron island, we just need to get the ships to sail them across. We will also have the second wave mostly in position as well. We will have more cats in that group. We have made all the upgrades well want to make until our lands are threatened with invasion.
1085 The archer in Arretium is now a longbow.
IBT Moscow: galley => mace
1100 we now have all our units for the initial landing. I start positioning the troops. Since we have enough cash, I crank science up to 100%, philosophy due in three.
IBT St. Pete: Jewish Monk House => Hindu Monk House
Yaro: HA => Mace
1106
IBT Vicky wants use to cancel with Mongolia. Not yet.
Gandhi wants to trade world maps. He only has 10G and our map is worth more than that.
Novo: galley => cat
1112
IBT Caesar wants open borders. Too late for that buddy, we are about to invade.
Philosophy => Education (11 turns at 100%)
Moscow: mace => mace
1118 Use GS to lightbulb 2488 beakers worth of education. It is now due in four, although we can only go 100% for three more turns.
I will stop there as the invasion force is ready to go.
After Action: The next player will want to wake up the units in the 1st Wave and give them whatever promotions is deemed appropriate. I would give a few units some defensive promotions (woodsman I) to ward off the initial counterattack, while the majority get city attack. There are now three HA, a spear, an axe and a LB defending Arretium. Im not sure we want to wait to get another ships worth of units.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1025 AD to 1118 AD:
Turn 235, 1025 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 235, 1025 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Vassalage!
Turn 235, 1025 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Theocracy!
Turn 237, 1055 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier has been born in St. Petersburg!
Turn 238, 1070 AD: Carl Friedrich Gauss has been born in Guangzhou!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 11
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Victoria has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Montezuma has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Cyrus converts to Christianity!
Turn 241, 1106 AD: Zhang Heng has been born in a far away land!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Louis XIV has 370 gold available for trade
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Cyrus has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Hatshepsut has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 242, 1112 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 10
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Leonardo da Vinci has been born in Madras!
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)
) go easy on the whip. We might think about switching to universal suffrage for cash rushing when we get closer to the end.
