SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond

I see it, and it is in the queue. However, I am not going to play until we have a team consensus for the next war.


I think we have too many workers. All but one are on the Roman island.
I will request that we DON'T delete any of them. I have seen people to rush to get rid of "excess" workers and get trashed from either pillages, or total lack of workers to get lumber mills / rails on-line.
 
I've only scanned the turnset report, but it looks like a good job, Iainuki. Good suggestions on the cities (and their governors!) too.

I'm all in favor of taking the great AlexMao continent next. Heroic Epic + Globe in Athens sounds like a winner.

And yes, I'd be willing to write our first spoiler, though it may take me a few days to get around to it.
 
Compromise (just just played)
greggo (where art thou?)
LKendter (UP)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)

I agree that Alex is the next to go, then Mao.

Iainuki, good job with the turnset. I'll take a look if I have more time later.
 
One member doesn't make a consensus, I will play tomorrow even if I don't hear more voices. I really want civs with health and luxury resources more that raw pop.
 
Alex has three cities, Sparta and Athens, which we would like to have now. And Thermopyle which would be difficult to support and defend early in a Chinese war. How about go to war with Alex and bring Mao in as an ally after Sparta is captured. Allow Mao to capture Thermopyle. Then we prepare for the Chinese war in earnest.

We need to continue to build our navy. Make sure we escort our ships. we don't need any land troops in Davy Jones' locker.

I'm not sure what "a lot of workers in Roman lands" means. Is that 5 or 20? If it is 20, by all means disband some. If it is five, I'd keep all of them. Somewhere in between, and I'd say that is a judgment call.

I still don't get the manner in which you guys play an SG. One plays five turns, another plays 30. Go figure.

Edit - Lee, Alex will be a strategic war rather than a war for resources. He will be good for island hopping to locations further away.

I also like the one and two tile cities. They add population while keeping our land count down.
 
Just as a reminder, we are half way through our time limit of three months. We shouldn't have any reason to worry, as we have moved at a very good pace. Other teams who are still in the BC era may have troubles, in my opinion.

On the war front, it's probably the best idea to take Alex and Mao out first. Lee, if you like, you could probably divert troops to the barb city to get silver and sheep. Do you have any other ideas for possible targets to attack next?
 
I've had a chance to look over Iainuki's post (though not the autolog). I'm amazed at the number of high-odds losses. I guess that happens sometimes.

There were just a few things I wanted to comment on. I liked the tech choices and the trading description. I also thought the settling of that triple-seafood horse island was genius. I'd probably drop a settler and a longbow on the double-seafood island too. Talk about high food-to-land ratios!

Regarding war, I think we should take Sparta and Athens. By adopting Vassalage and Theocracy, Mao is almost assuredly planning to declare war. I think we have a choice to make: Do we let him declare his war (possibly on us, possibly on someone else) or do we preempt his decision and declare on him first.

If he happens to declare on us, at least we wouldn't lose any diplo points with anybody for beating him up. If he declares on someone else, we will get some mutual struggle bonus points, but he'll probably choose a low-power civ whose attitude we don't care about anyway. The problem with letting him declare is that we can't choose the time and place of the encounter.

If we let him declare, then the only way we'll know what he's up to is to have a caravel find his "gathering point" city. On these island maps, I've found that the AI usually picks a single city and puts a bunch of galleons (or whatever the current troop transport vessel is) there and then fills them. You can tell if they are filled because the list will read, starting from the top, something like: Galleon, Maceman, Maceman, Longbow, Galleon, Maceman, Maceman, Galleon, Longbow, Longbow, Longbow. In this case, this means there is one full galleon, one with just two Maces in it, one empty and 3 longbows who will defend the city. When the AI fills all three galleons, it will set off and declare war when the stack reaches its target. (Later, there will be 2 or 3 frigates at the top of the list too who will serve as escorts.)

Using caravels, we should be able to find this city of Mao's. If we do, we can tell how far he is from attacking and--if we continue to watch--watch the task force pull anchor and sail off to the target. (Of course, if it's us, he'll declare quickly and sink our caravel right away, but at least we'll know.)

I think we should take Alex's two cities because that way, if Mao is after us, he'll probably attack those cities first. I hate powerful AIs (meaning in this game I dislike Mao and Hatty most of all). Since he has knights, we might want some pikes.

Just another quick note: the barracks in St Pete was a way to dissipate some whip anger in anticipation of a switch to Nationalism (barracks = 2 happies, IIRC). I suspect we'll want to go with Nationalism because we're about to have a spawling empire and we'll want to garrison all those cities with drafted--rather than attacking--troops. I should have made that note in my turnset report. (Of course, we may want to run Bureaucracy through another war or two.)

Regarding workers: I think 10 might be about the right number. That way, we can quickly chop forests (for granaries, courthouses and libraries) and build farms in newly captured cities. Are we still planning to run a specialist economy in the new cities?

Since I can easily see us deciding that Gandhi's cities need new management, I'd be happy with parking several warriors in Rome awaiting a future western front.

Regarding turnset length: While I was a bit surprised at how many turns Iainuki played, I don't have a problem with it. In game terms, he only did about two operations: finished the Roman war and prepared for the Greek war. Both were pre-approved by the team. (Of course, if Iainuki keeps losing so many 80%+ odds battles, he will be reassigned to logistics-only turnsets!) War is tedious in Civ, and I certainly don't mind someone with the inclination taking on a greater share of the clicking.

One more war point: Do we know where Mao's horse are? We could stop his knight-making fairly quickly with a concentrated assault....
 
Re: Mao's target. I think the easiest way to decide whether he'll attack you will be a check of the power graph. The AI tends to want 2-3 times as much power as the human target before declaring a planned war. I'm not looking at the saves, but given that you're in war-mode there's a good chance he won't feel far enough ahead.

Re: Alex. Forest directly outside Athens? Off with his head!
 
Something I forget to mention in my post is that I moved our caravels back to keep watch on all Mao's possible egress points and on Athens. Once we capture Athens, that will free up a caravel to go find Mao's gathering-point city.

Here are my feelings about the next turnset:

1) I think we should definitely take out Sparta and Athens. His main cities are small and quite close to our capital, so should be productive acquisitions. They also occupy a good strategic position, close to the Incan/Egyptian/Malinese island and blocking that channel. I think the question of whether we take Thermopylae is related to whether we want to attack Mao next.

I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.

2) I'm still hesitant about fighting Mao. However, it looks like we may not have a choice: he's all but certain to declare war on someone, and I would say there are very good odds that it's us. If that's what's going to happen, I'd rather pick the time and place than allow him to. I agree with Compromise: taking the Greek cities means that we get to fight him on his island, which is preferable to fighting him on ours. Any more information about Mao's intentions, victim and time, would be good.

3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?

4) If at all possible, try to trade for Guilds before starting Gunpowder research so we get the discount and can upgrade horse archers to cavalry. (You need knights before you can upgrade horse archers to cavalry, IIRC.)

I think that's most of the stuff that's going to come up in the next turnset. I think we want to talk about civics choices (Mercantilism, Free Market, Nationalism--anything else?) and research directions in the near future, but I don't think that's going to come up while you're playing, LKendter. For the moment, our tech path is clear: Military Tradition, then Gunpowder. If we do want to switch to Nationalism, I don't think we should do it yet.
 
We need to continue to build our navy. Make sure we escort our ships. we don't need any land troops in Davy Jones' locker.

Unfortunately, galleons are our best ships at the moment. Does anyone know if unloaded ships are preferentially selected in a stack? We probably do need more, though--I didn't build any, but I thought we had adequate numbers for the invasion of Greece, which was my focus.
 
Something I forget to mention in my post is that I moved our caravels back to keep watch on all Mao's possible egress points and on Athens. Once we capture Athens, that will free up a caravel to go find Mao's gathering-point city.

Ah, cool.

1) I think we should definitely take out Sparta and Athens. His main cities are small and quite close to our capital, so should be productive acquisitions. They also occupy a good strategic position, close to the Incan/Egyptian/Malinese island and blocking that channel. I think the question of whether we take Thermopylae is related to whether we want to attack Mao next.

I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.

I guess I don't much of an opinion on the order. Whatever best sets us up to attack Mao, I suppose.

2) I'm still hesitant about fighting Mao. However, it looks like we may not have a choice: he's all but certain to declare war on someone, and I would say there are very good odds that it's us. If that's what's going to happen, I'd rather pick the time and place than allow him to. I agree with Compromise: taking the Greek cities means that we get to fight him on his island, which is preferable to fighting him on ours. Any more information about Mao's intentions, victim and time, would be good.

Must...kill...Mao....

3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?

I haven't looked at the save yet. Do we have a monopoly on Nationalism? I'm thinking that if no industrious/marbled civ can build the Taj, I don't mind doing so. Otherwise, let's sweep to victory.

4) If at all possible, try to trade for Guilds before starting Gunpowder research so we get the discount and can upgrade horse archers to cavalry. (You need knights before you can upgrade horse archers to cavalry, IIRC.)

Hadn't thought about that. Good thinking.

I think that's most of the stuff that's going to come up in the next turnset. I think we want to talk about civics choices (Mercantilism, Free Market, Nationalism--anything else?) and research directions in the near future, but I don't think that's going to come up while you're playing, LKendter. For the moment, our tech path is clear: Military Tradition, then Gunpowder. If we do want to switch to Nationalism, I don't think we should do it yet.

I agree with the delay for Nationalism. It may or may not be worth using since it will cost us population. I lean toward Mercantilism, but only slightly.
 
3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?

I already figured it was started the second we got Nationalism. Especially with marble that is an auto pilot move. I full plan to start this on my turn set - any city preferences? IIRC it gives us ugly artist points. I am at work, and can't check that.
 
I already figured it was started the second we got Nationalism. Especially with marble that is an auto pilot move. I full plan to start this on my turn set - any city preferences? IIRC it gives us ugly artist points. I am at work, and can't check that.

Perhaps I have always misunderestimated the value of the Taj. Okay, I'm game. How about Novgorod?
 
Novgorod sounds good for the Taj Mahal to me. It's one of our best production cities, and as long as we don't contaminate St. Pete or Moscow, we should be good. If we want, there's a forest at St. Pete we could chop to speed up the Taj, but I'm not sure that's wise this late in the game. Whipping it when it's time, though, is probably a good call.
 
I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.
I am against spliting forces at this time. Civ IV penalizes yu for having wounded units. If Alex makes any counter against our landing, the success of the ensuing attack is in jeopardy.

The almost every time in history that dividing forces has been successful has been when there is a major element of surprise.

Unless we have some overwhelming force to land two forces with, let's keep everyone together. We won't be surprising Alex.

While we are guarding against a pillaging force, watch the harbor of Thermopyle as well.
 
Guys, I took a look at the game. I am totally unwilling to declare war with our current empire shape. Even single city is stripped down to a lone defender with ZERO mobile reserves. There is simply no way I can force myself to declare war with this horrid defense. This is especially true with a lot of the units our obsolete.

Your choices are skip me this round if you want war with Greece now, or let me play 15 turns of rebuilding our military and building up city defenses. We only have two cities on military, and this is totally unacceptable to me for a Greek war when that greatly increases the odds of a war with Mao.
 
I'd prefer not to skip you, LK. I think you should do what you think is best.

I haven't looked at the save, but I know that when I'm on a rampage, most of my cities have one defender. (But maybe not every last one of them.) After we take care of Alex and Mao, I can't imagine getting sneak attacked for the rest of the game.
 
Lee, you are an experienced player. If you think it is the best choice to spend some time rebuilding and developing before we continue, then by all means, go ahead! There is no need to skip anyone when there are differences in opinion. We should just trust and respect every player's decisions and opinions. Go ahead and play your turnset the way you see fit, then we'll plan our warpath after that. Heck, a turnset of rebuilding will probably make planning easier for us. :)
 
It's late and I need to sleep, so I'm going to try to be brief here.

First, there are no ships in Thermopylae, so we don't need to worry about blockading it.

Second, Lee, you and I obviously have very different styles.

Let me explain the logic I've been using. At this point, we have five immediate neighbors: Mao, Alex, Gandhi, and Victoria, and Hatty. If you will look at the power graph, we're above all of them but Hatty and Mao. Vicky, Hatty, and Gandhi are all very pacifistic personalities, in my experience: I can't remember any occasions when I've faced a backstab from them. Hatty shares a land border with Huayna, who she dislikes more than us. None of those powers, except Mao, has "too much on my hands." The only more distant power I fear is Isabella, but she's below us on the power graph, doesn't have enough on her hands, made peace with us not many years ago, and has closer borders with other AIs she dislikes. Even if she were to attack, she would hit Yekaterinburg and the Roman island first, not our core, and we could afford to buy time with space, recapturing cities later. Thus, my assessment of the diplomatic situation is that we should expect a war with Mao soon, once he's built enough troops, but not immediately, because he just switched to Vassalage and Theocracy; and that no one else is going to attack us.

I run a very light defense because units sitting in cities don't do any good. I rely on civics, upgrading, and knowing when the AI's going to attack for defense. Right now, in an emergency situation, I think we could whip, and if necessary, switch to Nationhood and draft, enough units to beat off an offensive. We also have a large cash buffer to upgrade obsolete units into real defenders in an emergency.

I think that a war with Greece is going to be very short. Once we take Sparta and Athens, it's over, and we have adequate forces on hand to do that. My emphasis at this point is speed: we need to be gaining ground. Also, because we're racing against the other teams, I think we need to take some risks to do this. My calculation is that Mao isn't ready to attack now, so we have time to build forces before then, and adding Alex's cities would help us. I'd hoped this was a risk worth taking.

Because this is an archipelago map, we have few cities with any real production. Several of our cities are so slow at building anything that it doesn't really matter what they're building. (Pisae, Arretium, and Cumae, for instance.) If you count strict numbers of cities, the numbers look thin, but if you count hammers, with our two best production cities on military, about half our per-turn hammers are going to build military units. As soon as Antium finishes its lighthouse, I think it should start or whip a barracks, and then go onto military from there; at that point, about 60% of our hammers would be going to military.

I can see an argument for building more units in our mobile reserve, but I strongly feel that we shouldn't be garrisoning our cities with anything more than obsolete units, one per city. We know where the attack is coming from, let's fight Mao on our terms and make sure that it doesn't matter what we're using to police our cities with.
 
Lurker's comment :

Mao is a weird guy. I've had games where he had something on his hands
for ages and nothing happened. If you increase your military this can be
your situation for ages. Also if you plan to attack him remember the
defensive pacts and later the permanent alliances will soon come into play.
 
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