SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[LKendter]

Also, LK is (presumably) doing some thinking and dotmapping. I think we need to get (and digest!) his input before proceeding.

I agree with the dot map as posted below. My worry is on the timing of pyramids and tech order. Quarrys take forever to get on-line.

Settling -

 

[LKendter]

As a quick comment, I think I would go for Masonry first. I'm started to get paranoid about losing the Pyramids...

Glad to hear it. I have lost to many wonders by one or two turns. My typical mistake was trying to get to many cities before starting. It seems like ONE city is the limit on the real early wonders.

 

[Compromise]

I have lost too many wonders by one or two turns.

Even though it's a crying shame to waste population, it's this kind of experience that makes me want to poprush the pyramids to save 2-3 turns at the end. I wouldn't mind aiming to complete them by 1200BC. Goody huts were only removed from our island (as I understand the game description*), so some industrious civ might have popped masonry.

*: ... said "Raging barbs" Compromise

 

[Iainuki]

I think the build order has to be whip workboat->warrior->whip worker. We need the warrior to supress "we demand military protection" whining in Moscow. The big questions are what to put hammers into and what to whip after the worker.

On the tech order: if our worker isn't going to be building roads anyways, can't we wait on The Wheel? We don't have any resources we need to connect yet (not until after Masonry), so the only benefit of roads is saved worker turns moving onto hills and forests. The productivity rewards for us come with Pottery, with cheap granaries and cottages. What if we have the worker pre-mine a hills while waiting for Masonry to come in, then have it quarry the stone? (Depending on when In the pre-Pyramids period where we're still whipping settlers/workers, we can work the seafood, floodplains, and quarry at size 4, getting more productivity out of our available resources than any other way.

I guess my feeling at this point is:

whip workboat->warrior->whip worker

Masonry -> The Wheel -> Pottery

The worker should be whippable around the same turn that Masonry becomes available, so it should start be able to start on the quarry immediately.

When it comes to my turnset, I'm going to set all cities on the governor with food/commerce/production emphasized. I suggest everyone else does similarly, because it's the setting that maximizes output and growth in general. (It will work cottages over forests, etc.) Only cities we're microing for some specific purpose, like building a wonder, should ever be off the governor. We should individually force the specialists we want, and not let the governor pick them, because we want to micro our great person pools so we get specific kinds as much as possible.

 

[Iainuki]

So many good points to address! I'm going to spam the thread with individual comments.

I think in epic 9 (always war), some people got religion spread to them from random-personalitied Tokugawa. It happened when both civs could see the same coastal squares, but neither could see a full border or unit of the other civ so they hadn't met (and auto-declared war) yet. So it's something about potential trade routes (from the holy city) rather than actual in-city trade routes.

Civ4 overloads "trade routes," meaning both the city-commerce-bonus things, and also the connections between civs. I meant the latter: if you could have trade routes if you signed open borders with a civ or civs, you are connected to them and religion can spread, unless you're at war.

 

[greggo]

Just got home and finished reading. Still waiting for some more discussion, I'll post anything relevant after I've had some time to digest everything that's been said so far

 

[LKendter]

I agree we need the wheel early. There is no river to connect the stone, so we need at least two roads, and the quarry done quickly.

 

[Iainuki]

Another good reason for Kodii's suggested move of red dot is that pre-Iron Working, it will be able to work the fish. I still think I'd plan in the longer run for blue dot to have the fish all the time because we'll need a strong production city, but it looks like we're going to need to have red dot bear most of the burden of producing settlers and workers for our island, and the fish will be a big help. (I'd like to squeeze a third settler from Moscow before blitzing the Pyramids, but I don't how realistic that is; and we have to keep in mind how we're getting it to blue dot.)

 

[Compromise]

I think the build order has to be whip workboat->warrior->whip worker. We need the warrior to supress "we demand military protection" whining in Moscow. The big questions are what to put hammers into and what to whip after the worker.

I think the military protection anger comes in at size 3 and lowers our happy cap to size 4. Since we're planning to whip the worker at size 4, the "protection" anger shouldn't limit our growth. Overflow (if any) from the worker rush will be added to the warrior build. It should finish before or right after we grow back to size 3.

Note: a 2-pop rush generates 2x44H not 2x45H because of the way civ rounds, right? so we'll need 2H in the worker before rushing it? That means we'll need to work a forest or something to get another hammer of production (in addition to the city's contribution) on the turn that we start the worker. Then switch back to high-food.

On the tech order: if our worker isn't going to be building roads anyways, can't we wait on The Wheel? We don't have any resources we need to connect yet (not until after Masonry), so the only benefit of roads is saved worker turns moving onto hills and forests. The productivity rewards for us come with Pottery, with cheap granaries and cottages. What if we have the worker pre-mine a hills while waiting for Masonry to come in, then have it quarry the stone? (Depending on when In the pre-Pyramids period where we're still whipping settlers/workers, we can work the seafood, floodplains, and quarry at size 4, getting more productivity out of our available resources than any other way.

This is an excellent point! Send the worker to pre-mine the grassland hills first (if it can't start the quarry. Start the quarry asap). It can work its way back to the city from the quarry via the plains hill (on which we want a road to connect the stone to the city).

I guess my feeling at this point is:

whip workboat->warrior->whip worker

Masonry -> The Wheel -> Pottery

I agree. Note that the worker whip should be as soon as the pop=4.

The worker should be whippable around the same turn that Masonry becomes available, so it should start be able to start on the quarry immediately.

When it comes to my turnset, I'm going to set all cities on the governor with food/commerce/production emphasized. I suggest everyone else does similarly, because it's the setting that maximizes output and growth in general. (It will work cottages over forests, etc.) Only cities we're microing for some specific purpose, like building a wonder, should ever be off the governor. We should individually force the specialists we want, and not let the governor pick them, because we want to micro our great person pools so we get specific kinds as much as possible.

I agree.

 

[Kodii]

Actually, it wasn't my idea to move the red dot

Remember, the red dot needs culture in order to make use of that fish. In other words, it needs library or an obelisk.

We want to get a worker and a settler out before starting the Pyramids. We also need at least one warrior for MP. How does this sound:

Workboat (whip), warrior (to grow), worker (whip), Pyramids (to grow), settler (whip), Pyramids

 

[greggo]

Re: Masonry vs The Wheel.

Just looked in game, and masonry will be only 13 turns, while the wheel is 12.

Assuming everyone else's math is correct, this sounds like our worker would be able to move directly to the stone and quarry it, start prechopping the plains hill forest, then road back to the quarry once the wheel comes in. Does that sound about right?

EDIT:
Is it a problem that I've opened the save, done nothing, and closed again. Will reopening the save count as a reload? Sorry if this was bad, it just occured to me now...

reEdit:
Thanks Compromise, I wasn't looking forward to: "So, how'd your first SGOTM go?" ... "Well, I got my team disqualified before the second turnset."

 

[Compromise]

Is it a problem that I've opened the save, done nothing, and closed again. Will reopening the save count as a reload? Sorry if this was bad, it just occured to me now...

It seems to me that since everyone else can open the save, look around, and do nothing, so can the turnset player. I'm sure this is fine.

 

[Compromise]

Assuming everyone else's math is correct, this sounds like our worker would be able to move directly to the stone and quarry it, start prechopping the plains hill forest, then road back to the quarry once the wheel comes in. Does that sound about right?

That sounds right. Very cool to get the stone hooked up asap!

 

[Compromise]

Remember, the red dot needs culture in order to make use of that fish. In other words, it needs library or an obelisk.

After this next turnset, we need to discuss how to do this....

We want to get a worker and a settler out before starting the Pyramids. We also need at least one warrior for MP. How does this sound:

Workboat (whip), warrior (to grow), worker (whip), Pyramids (to grow), settler (whip), Pyramids

I'm still confused about the high priority of the settler. Red dot is going to be an unhealthy cesspool (or at least unproductive) until we get animal husbandry. Given our tech path, it's 40-some turns till we start AH. Maybe if we sent the settler south to the spices, yes. Otherwise, why lower our commerce supporting that city?

It seems to me that fog-busting warriors would be more immediately profitable and one of them (after our MP) might have an even higher priority than the pyramids.

As always, I'm open to discussion, but I'm not convinced of the need for that fast first settler (for red dot, anyway). After AH: Yes: use it to pump worker/settlers. Maybe it can do that unimproved anyway, I guess. Another worker would get the capital's mines (and the pyramids) done much more quickly, though....

 

[greggo]

OK, going to do a quick summary of my planned turnset:

Inherited turn: move scout away and fortify warrior to take lion's attack. Revolt to slavery. Change tech to masonry, followed by the wheel.

Next, whip the workboat, with the overflow going towards a warrior. Build the warrior until we are at size 4, then whip a worker. The worker will move towards the stone. If there is still time to wait before masonry, he will start to premine the plains hill. As soon as possible, start quarrying the stone. Once the quarry is in place, build a road or continue premining until the wheel is available.

After the worker and warrior are finished, we will begin working on pyramids. When we grow back to size 4, whip a settler then continue with pyramids.

Going to eat lunch, will come back in about half an hour to see what the consensus is.

 

[Kodii]

I think thats about right. I see you took the build order straight from my suggestion. I believe we still need a few more changes to that.

 

[Compromise]

in hurry here: need turn of workboat before can whip; size 6 needed for settler whip; I think worker better than settler; don't want uber-whip penalty

edit: If you get to a fork in the road, and don't know how to proceed. Feel free to stop. Either ask and continue or play a shortened set

 

[Kodii]

I'll be gone for about two hours. greggo will most likely play during then. Good luck!

(Wow, we are approaching 200 posts )

 

[LKendter]

EDIT:
Is it a problem that I've opened the save, done nothing, and closed again. Will reopening the save count as a reload? Sorry if this was bad, it just occured to me now...

Well I think I would have heard this being a problem, since my PMs to fix the issue mentioned I wanted to look at the game for DotMapping reasons. If

 

[greggo]

It seems everyone is in agreement with workboat, warrior, worker builds and whips, and the question is what to come next.

As far as I can see, the options are:
Warrior (fogbusting)
Workboat (exploration)
Pyramids
Second worker
Settler

The worker and settler may come from whips or chops in between another build. My personal preference is to get a workboat exploring, but I'm more than willing to go with something else.