SGOTM 04 - Geezers

Jenarie · May 4, 2007

What about using the GE which I brought to New Karakorum for a new palace at our new home ?
The Great General I have sent over to Gergovia. I think a military academy there will be of more use there.
I think after the peace deal expires we will have a decent number of troops to finish off Brennus.

Agree with all three.

It may be better to just raze Cordoba and settle a new city on the desert 2 NW of Cordoba instead.

Agree. It is in a bad spot right now due to cultural pressure and well just bad spot.

We could also consider just 1 NW for slightly less overlap.

I think Gandhi will not take Yayoi. He wants Haitha and El Do and I think we should give these to him at his next attempt. I already thought about it for 20 minutes whether I should give Haitha to him when he landed three muskets there. Next time we should definitely do it. We need to get him going.

I think we should give him anything he wants on the original land from this point on. Even up to the capital - if he "takes" our capital we get a free move we'd just have to make sure our second biggest city was the one we wanted to move it to. Bibracte isn't the ideal location for our new capital but it has the population to pull it off and it isn't bad.

Also like Mark's idea about using the GE to build a new capital if we want to hurry up and do it and not wait for a whim from Gandhi. I think he'd get braver if we move out some troops but then again we don't want to be so tempting that Hanibal or someone else takes the bait instead.

Looking at the save:
-New Karakorum can be MM'd for 2 more gpt. Not sure if we are letting it starve a bit on purpose for now but can move stuff a bit without changing any of the yields except gold.
-Gergovia can be MM'd to get 3 more gpt but would grow slower. Would this be good idea or do we want growth?
-Should Isca citizen be working the coast tile or be a priest? Either gives us another 1gpt off the negative.
-Iron sheep can move from 1f3h to 2f2h1g watermill but not sure if that is a good idea. It would grow twice as fast as it is already unhealthy but I like it 'cause it gives us another 1 gpt.

If we do all that we go from -11gpt to -4gpt but not sure if all of it is a good idea. I'm thinking at least some of it though would be good.

Wow Bibracte has three wonders and an academy in it plus a lot of misc buildings. Nice!

Should Camulodunum be on culture until borders pop? That was discussed a bit but didn't see a definite decision on what we wanted to do for the border pops.

As far as strategy goes, I'm not really sure what to think. Some random thoughts:

I'd prefer peace with Isabel at least until we finish off Brenus but I don't think she's going to let us have it. If she does keep it up we should probably raze Santiago and Salamanca as they are too close to her capital unless of course we can take the capital as well. If we were playing to win this I'd be all for taking out Izzy... once we move our capital she's sitting on some nice real estate for us. Unfortunately we want to lose to Gandhi and he likes her so... I think we should pacify her if at all possible without taking or razing anything so that she keeps up her trading ability.

I think we may need to finish off Brennus as soon as the peace treaty is over since he and Isabel hate each other. I'm thinking if we weaken him too much Isabel may attack him and get him as a vassal and then we'd have to either go to war with her again or deal with his cultural pressure.

As far as the next 10 turns go, we have peace for 7 so I think it is mostly about getting troops moved around and in position so that we are ready to counter anything Izzy tosses our way (we are already pretty strong here I think) and ready to take on Brennus if we decide to take him out.

markh · May 4, 2007

Roster:

Sam
Htadus
Mark - just played
Jenarie or Harbourboy - UP (who takes it first ? the other one is on deck)
Thrallia

Sam_Yeager · May 4, 2007

Jenarie said:
Also like Mark's idea about using the GE to build a new capital if we want to hurry up and do it and not wait for a whim from Gandhi. I think he'd get braver if we move out some troops but then again we don't want to be so tempting that Hanibal or someone else takes the bait instead.

Bear in mind that we'll lose our supply of GE's once we evacuate Nidaros. We may want to hang onto that GE. I like the idea of getting our palace being moved for free as long as we can be sure it goes to the right city. Depending on how long we will have our southern cities the FP would be a good idea.

Jenarie said:
I'd prefer peace with Isabel at least until we finish off Brenus but I don't think she's going to let us have it. If she does keep it up we should probably raze Santiago and Salamanca as they are too close to her capital unless of course we can take the capital as well.

Personally I want to do the minimum possible against Izzy. We want her to be a trading partner for Ghandhi. In addition I would see us moving on Hannibal, maybe with a brief diversion for Mehmed, so that we can weaken him enough to fall behind Ghandhi. We probably want Artillery before we attack Hannibal though.

Jenarie said:
I think we may need to finish off Brennus as soon as the peace treaty is over since he and Isabel hate each other. I'm thinking if we weaken him too much Isabel may attack him and get him as a vassal and then we'd have to either go to war with her again or deal with his cultural pressure.

Good point.

Jenarie said:
As far as the next 10 turns go, we have peace for 7 so I think it is mostly about getting troops moved around and in position so that we are ready to counter anything Izzy tosses our way (we are already pretty strong here I think) and ready to take on Brennus if we decide to take him out.

Let's get that civic switch to Free Religion done. For any future major wars I strongly suggest switching to State Property to reduce WW. Once El Do & Nidaros have gone the impact will be far less.

markh · May 4, 2007

I am totally for eliminating Brennus. We should have enough troops around when the peace deal expires. Although we still have to see what Izzy has for us. :scan:

I think we are agreed that we give our northern cities to Gandhi now, so maybe we should whip units there to reduce pop and fill our waiting galleons fast. We have quite a good amount of money. How much can we speed up rifling ? I forgot to check that. We could whip some rifles to accompany the grens and cannons. I am a little nervous having only cannons and grens on the other continent.

I am torn about the use of the GE. He might be useful for the space elevator. I totally forgot to move the palace by losing the capital city, but for this option the cities on the other continent need to grow fast or we have to whip our southern cities considerably. I would not like that as our main research capabilities will be in our southern cities.

Harbourboy · May 4, 2007

Jenarie or Harbourboy - UP (who takes it first ? the other one is on deck)

Jenarie does, unless I hear otherwise.

Jenarie · May 4, 2007

Okies I got it and will play tonight.

So basically I'm just mostly playing ferry captain, correct?

markh · May 4, 2007

Who knows what surprises Izzy has for you.

We are already at war her for a few turns, so there must come something.

Sam_Yeager · May 4, 2007

markh said:
Who knows what surprises Izzy has for you.

Faints.

mark posting on a Friday evening. :lol:

Jenarie · May 5, 2007

0) Turn 350 - 1640 AD

- Changed both cities in revolt to produce culture to pop borders ASAP.

- Minor MMing to improve GPT to -4. After 2 trades (below) we are at +1gpt.

- Check to see about improving time on rifling but it would cost us 65gpt to increase research 10% which would mean a cost of 414g to save two turns. Even though we have the gold that seems like too much since it wouldn't be a huge improvement. Leaving it for now but can probably shave off one turn later for not much gold.

- Build the Military Academy (as mentioned by Mark) in Gergovia. Double checked and that is our best production city so far on this continent. Even the capital doesn't look like it would be better.

- I'm nervous about only having one defender in our western new cities with Izzy being pissy but there isn't really much I can see to do about it atm. Will just have to make sure she doesn't manage to get over there. Looks like we have troops loaded ready to sail to the rescue so I shouldn't have to hold my breath for long.

Wow went looking for the fleet 'cause I knew we had boats somewhere and we have a LOT of ferries! I'm not a ferry captain; I'm an admiral... or something! :lol:

- Switch to Free Religion figuring might as well do the revolting while we still have two cities in revolt that wouldn't be doing anything anyway. Long internal debate on mercantilism... really long...

- Cancel spices to Hanibal for 3gpt and sell him sheep for 5gpt instead.
- Mehmed gives us 3gpt for sheep.

That was a nice distraction from the Mercantilism debate... count it up and we are getting 48 gpt from trade routes with foreign countries and finally decide not to do it. I'm guessing this is probably wrong because I know The-Hawk is a lot better at this then I am but no one else really had an opinion about this so just leaving it as is for now. Maybe we can get economics from someone (everyone has it) and go right to free market soon.

Start moving frigate and 3 full galleons across ocean. Hopefully I can find an escort for the empty five galleons by the time I fill them (edit: I found it: Mark has it building

) but wanted troops sailing since it takes 3 turns.
[Have I mentioned I hate boats? I always play pangea or highlands to avoid them. :crazyeye:

]

IBT:
Herodotus has completed his greatest work,
The Most Advanced Civilizations in the World!
1) Mehmed II the Glorious
2) Hannibal the Great
3) Washington the Fine
4) Isabella the Mediocre
5) Gandhi the Puny
6) Geezers the Pathetic
7) Brennus the Hopeless

1) Turn 351 - 1643 AD

We have a ton of workers. I am going to test and see if we can gift to Gandhi while at war - if it works with a worker it would work with a GE later if we don't get the thingie built for him before we finish moving. Gifting doesn't seem to be an option. Sorry if you already knew that but um... on the bright side we are going to be saving another 1 gpt once we come out of anarchy!

There really isn't much for workers to do right now... will load a galley full and send them across... except there isn't much to do over there either. We have 18 workers atm - maybe we should consider deleting a few - I think they are costing us 1gpt each for not much benefit at this point. They'd be worth having when we get railroads but not sure how far out that will be? Not doing it but please someone comment on why we want them around or I'll probably poof a few my next turn.

Load some more boats.

Isabella still won't talk.

IBT: Gandhi is bombarding Tiflis (island city) with frigates but doesn't seem to have any actual troops there or galleys around yet.

2) Turn 352 - 1646 AD

Transport Convoy 1 makes it to Gergovia and I breath a sigh of relief. I was so sure I was going to manage to get our army sunk.

We are out of anarchy and are at -1gpt with 7 turns to go on rifling. So the 2 turn anarchy only cost us one turn of research which is nice.

IBT: Gandhi is using frigates to bombard Old Sarai and Tiflis. Still can't find the invasion force to back them up.

3) Turn 353 - 1649 AD

Nidaros: Frigate --> Grocer (7)

Bibracte comes out of resistance and we go from -1gpt to -18 gpt. It has 9 unhappy citizens and is starving. It will lose 1 pop to starvation anyway so instead of waiting for 1 build turn I rush a courthouse for 6 pop now. There are still four angry citizens. Right after I did this I realized we needed the population there for the capital move but I'm crossing my fingers and hoping it grows back before we need it. I think it should as it is already growing again although slowly due to the unhappiness. Also cancelled all it's specialists (1 scientist and 2 citizens) and now we are back at -1gpt. Border pop will be in two turns by running one more turn of culture after the courthouse.

Change Camulodunum from culture to temple - it is the only happy and culture combined and getting in the initial turn will save a pop if I have to whip it when it comes out. Will run the two turns of culture after that first build.

Isabella still doesn't want to talk to us but other then a couple caravels I haven't seen a single troop.

Convoy 2 is ready to leave but Gandhi has a frigate hanging out right in the way so waiting for him to move.

IBT: Gandhi lands on the mine North of El Dorado-sala. Our crossbowman fights off the first musketman but loses to the second. He has one full health musketman and one almost dead standing on our mine atm.

4) Turn 354 - 1652 AD

I walk our troops out of El-Dorado-sala leaving it for him to walk into next turn. This should prevent him from pillaging the mine so he'll have a great city right away instead of having to rebuild.

IBT: El Dorado-sala has been captured by the Indian Empire!

While defending, your frigate was destroyed by an Indian frigate
(Convoy 1 returning empty to pick up second load - the 3 empty galleys get away).

5) Turn 355 - 1655 AD

Iron Sheep: --> Grenadier
New Sarai: Bank --> Grenadier
Isca: Barracks --> Courthouse

Convoy 2 leaves for the promised land hiding behind the empty Convoy 1 decoy.

Isabella still won't talk and still has no troops anywhere to be seen.

IBT: Gandhi lands on the gems west of Haithabu.

6) Turn 356 - 1658 AD

Camulodunum come out of resistance. Whip temple for 2 pop which leaves 2 unhappy.

Really odd - I just noticed the troops by Haithabu but even scrolling up don't see the "see troops near" message for them. Just Tifilis and Old Sarai frigate messages where he's still bombarding and has been this whole set with nothing to land there.

There is a Gandhi frigate in the fog NE of our ships. I was planning to take the empty ones out first to scout to make sure it is clear before moving the troop carriers.

Saving here instead of marching out of another city. I'm thinking that is what we want to do but want to double check. In the interest of keeping things moving, Harbourboy if you want to take it from here and play 14 turns go for it. If you'd rather I finish then you play 10 I can finish tomorrow evening - either is fine just let me know. I didn't want to waste another day if you have the time to play and it is more convenient for you to go sooner rather then a day later.

I didn't delete any workers - I stuck a bunch on the ferry instead. Now that Camulodunum is out of resistance we can start cottaging and then maybe delete a few. Not a lot but I think we could probably get rid of 4ish to save a little gold.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Geezers_SG004_AD1658_01.CivWarlordsSave

Harbourboy · May 5, 2007

I assume that post is a work in progress, or is something missing?

Sam_Yeager · May 5, 2007

Harbourboy said:
I assume that post is a work in progress, or is something missing?

Jenarie normally updates her turnset post as she plays.

Jenarie · May 5, 2007

Sorry! I went afk for an hour but starting again. Usually I only get caught by Sam who probably wondered what I was doing the first time but is used to it now.

You could take this oportunity to tell me if I can delete workers!

Sam_Yeager · May 5, 2007

Jenarie said:
You could take this oportunity to tell me if I can delete workers!

Seems to me that there are a number of farms in our new land that would be better replaced by cottages so I think there's a need for workers over there. Once Ghandhi gets a foothold on our existing land we may also need some workers to rebuild improvements pillaged by Ghandhi as well. There's probably scope to delete some workers but not the majority.

Good call on Mercantilism. :goodjob:

I did post before mark's session saying we should not switch to it because of the trades we would lose. However I forgot to repost that advice before your turn. :blush:

Jenarie · May 5, 2007

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1610 AD to 1658 AD:
This includes Mark's turn since he couldn't upload due to server.

Spoiler :

It would have been in previous post but I got an error that my post was too long.

Sam_Yeager · May 5, 2007

@Jenarie - mark posted this earlier:

markh said:
I think we are agreed that we give our northern cities to Gandhi now, so maybe we should whip units there to reduce pop and fill our waiting galleons fast.

I don't think there is any serious disagreement about this now although it would be nice to hang onto Nidaros for a while yet. I don't have a problem wrt to Harbourboy continuing your turnset if he wants to. However I see no problem with you carrying on tomorrow either.

Sam_Yeager · May 5, 2007

Btw I notice that our 1640 AD hasn't been submitted yet. At the time the GOTM server was down. Maybe one of us should submit that save under his name?

Jenarie · May 5, 2007

Sam - you are right and I prob should have just gone with it. I almost did but... it is amazingly hard to just let the AI walk all over you like that! It would have been SO EASY to fight off that invasion - it just felt wrong even though I knew it was right to give it up.

I think my main concern was pace though. We agreed we wanted to let him have some cities but I didn't want to end my 10 turns with him in possession of all our best cities and then have someone go "oops we needed that one!" or something. Although everyone is so nice and no one would have made me feel bad but still...

I'm up past bedtime again hope that made sense... I think I'm in babble mode atm.

Htadus · May 5, 2007

Way to go Jenarie. Finally. Now we get to fatten that wimpy nation of India more. Lets give him Haitha too and use the retreated units at the 3 major cities we have nearby as reinforcement.

markh · May 5, 2007

Looks good, Jenarie. :goodjob:

Let him have Haitha. Maybe whip a unit out of it now and move all units out there next turn. He will just pillage and walk in next turn.

Maybe delete a few workers. I think we have more than enough.

I would suggest you play your full ten turns. We are well in time and do not need to hurry.

The-Hawk · May 5, 2007

Looking good :goodjob:

. Nice to see Ghandi making some progress in his war of conquest (took him long enough :rolleyes:

).

Sam_Yeager said:
Good call on Mercantilism. I did post before mark's session saying we should not switch to it because of the trades we would lose. However I forgot to repost that advice before your turn.

I'm not sure I'm in the same place, but I am the first to admit I don't understand trade routes. :confused:

Looking at the last save, I believe we would lose around 80 commerce in foreign trade routes (give or take). Most of this (50'ish) is lost in Nidaros. If we add a sci specialist to each town, we add around 8 beakers. (3 for sci spec, 3 for representation, ~2 for library and free religion civic). This number goes up when we get universities and observatories. If I counted right, we have 18 cities, so we add ~144 beakers. Some of our newly acquired cities will need a library to get a sci spec, but I would think we would be building libraries as a high priority anyhow.

Like I said, I'm not 100% clear on the mechanics of this, so I might be wrong. However, merc seems like a better option to me.

Some other notes:

I would abandon Haithu for sure... he landed enough units to take it anyhow, no reason to encourage him to pillage before he takes it.
Somewhere along the way, I missed that we were at war with Izzy, I assume she DOW'd us. I'd suggest peace as soon as she will talk to us, unless we think we are ready to take some cities from her. I am concerned she will drop some troops off somewhere and pillage Ghandi's future land.
I still think we need to get Mehmed and Hannibal into a war with each other. Mehmed is teching way ahead of us (and Ghandi). The Steel for war with Washington option is no longer available, but we can research a tech that Mehmed needs and try again (e.g. Bio).
Personally, I would stop building military in our original homeland. It looks like Ghandi will start to roll now that we gave him the city he was so fixated on. We should make sure all of our original cities have universities and observatories in the hopes that some of these buildings survive the capture. I think the best way to ensure Ghandi beats Mehmed to space is to boost Ghandi's research capability.
I would also suggest early libs, univs, and observs in our new homeland. I think the path of research a tech, gift to Izzy, hope she trades to Ghandi is a good one. However, it means rebuilding our research capability in the new world.

SGOTM 04 - Geezers

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Deity

Another Original Geezer

Deity

Deity

Prince

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Prince

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Prince

Another Original Geezer

Prince

Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Prince

A and L's dad

Deity

Old Original Geezer

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