SGOTM 04 - Trash Team
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
pigswill
fly (one day)
Has stuge disappeared on us?
stuge
Emperor
Sorry guys, my internet connection disappeared on me for the past two days. Now I feel dumb for not letting you know via my school's computers. Anyway...
The turns weren't overly exciting so here's just a fast recap.
I really don't know what our forces near Verlamion were meant to accomplish. We had too few grenadiers there to capture the city after Brennus reinforced it with a couple of rifles, so I just withdrew our fleet and left a couple of rifles and a rookie grenadier to pillage. They managed to take out a couple of towns before Brennus threw the kitchen sink (and several cannons) at them.
Hadrumetum had a revolt, so I began pulling our troops out in hopes that Gandhi would take the city before it flips. Right now there's one turn left of the revolt, we still hve three units there and Gandhi's swordsman hasn't budged. Not looking good.
Speaking of Gandhi, the only action with him consisted of me sinking several of his annoying caravels on the Old Continent's west coast. Why can't he send troops on galleons instead?
Our economy is looking up. The Forbidden Palace gave us a big boost. Cash-wise we're good but research could use some more work. We're now one turns away from steam power.
Regarding the scope of the whole game, I think the original plan is down the john. Any hopes that Gandhi would conquer our continent are gone and now it's too late anyway. Mehmed already has SAMs, while Gandhi is still lacking replaceable parts and chemistry.
Here's what I'd do: Abandon Vinland and declare on Hanny to get rid of the cities which are more of a burden than a profit. Consolidate our hold on the Old World and get ourselves some respectable military, like tanks and marines. Otherwise we'll never be able to stop someone on the other continent from launching. Gandhi will get to space somewhere in the 1900's but at least he'll get there.
Sounds desperate and I am. The stupid AI has turned a well-planned game into a nightmare.
Again, sorry for the delay. Here's the save.
The turns weren't overly exciting so here's just a fast recap.
I really don't know what our forces near Verlamion were meant to accomplish. We had too few grenadiers there to capture the city after Brennus reinforced it with a couple of rifles, so I just withdrew our fleet and left a couple of rifles and a rookie grenadier to pillage. They managed to take out a couple of towns before Brennus threw the kitchen sink (and several cannons) at them.
Hadrumetum had a revolt, so I began pulling our troops out in hopes that Gandhi would take the city before it flips. Right now there's one turn left of the revolt, we still hve three units there and Gandhi's swordsman hasn't budged. Not looking good.
Speaking of Gandhi, the only action with him consisted of me sinking several of his annoying caravels on the Old Continent's west coast. Why can't he send troops on galleons instead?
Our economy is looking up. The Forbidden Palace gave us a big boost. Cash-wise we're good but research could use some more work. We're now one turns away from steam power.
Regarding the scope of the whole game, I think the original plan is down the john. Any hopes that Gandhi would conquer our continent are gone and now it's too late anyway. Mehmed already has SAMs, while Gandhi is still lacking replaceable parts and chemistry.
Here's what I'd do: Abandon Vinland and declare on Hanny to get rid of the cities which are more of a burden than a profit. Consolidate our hold on the Old World and get ourselves some respectable military, like tanks and marines. Otherwise we'll never be able to stop someone on the other continent from launching. Gandhi will get to space somewhere in the 1900's but at least he'll get there.
Sounds desperate and I am. The stupid AI has turned a well-planned game into a nightmare.
Again, sorry for the delay. Here's the save.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Thanks for the report.
The AI really aren't cooperating.
I've already posted my views on abandoning Vinland/razing cities/pillaging everything in true viking style.
What does everyone else think?
Cam_H is UP (unless remconius wants to get in first having missed a set due to technical problems). Might be an idea for Cam_H and remconius to post their availability over the next few days and come to an agreement between them.
The AI really aren't cooperating.
I've already posted my views on abandoning Vinland/razing cities/pillaging everything in true viking style.
What does everyone else think?
Cam_H is UP (unless remconius wants to get in first having missed a set due to technical problems). Might be an idea for Cam_H and remconius to post their availability over the next few days and come to an agreement between them.
remconius
Deity
I would like to play the next turnset, but at the same time I am somewhat hesitant to make promises. My compu is working, but time has been lacking. After a busy week others tend to demand time (friends/wife/kids)
I might be able to play tonight or maybe later this weekend.
I would at least want to look at the game and take/suggest some drastic measures. I still feel we should lose cities to get Gandhi to come over. I am not sure it has happened enough.
I might be able to play tonight or maybe later this weekend.
I would at least want to look at the game and take/suggest some drastic measures. I still feel we should lose cities to get Gandhi to come over. I am not sure it has happened enough.
I'm here ... if Remo's quick I can play it afterwards (refer below).
Personally I think that we need a review of our strategy rather than continue down the same path further. I've not looked at the game but have read Stuge's report, which is not encouraging of our chances. It seems that we need to stop Mehmed from getting too far ahead somehow. I'd rather not rely on either (a.) the bomb, or (b.) spies to save us, but this may be our fall-back.
As I've not looked at the game I am still unsure whether we've done enough to lure Gandhi by placing unprotected Workers on the peninsula south of Bombay. I am aware he didn't go for our Workers near Birka earlier in the game, but if we've yet to do so we should look at that on the "What have we got to lose?" basis. Assuming no lure has been put there, a lot of time has passed since the last attempt and it's in a different place on the map.
I'd invite either more discussion or Remco to play. I may need to defer my turnset because of my RL schedule.
[Edit:] Sorry chaps, I will now need to defer my round until at least next Thursday. Piggy, please amend the roster accordingly - sorry, just bad timing. As noted above, a bit of a review IMHO wouldn't be bad anyway. [/Edit]
Personally I think that we need a review of our strategy rather than continue down the same path further. I've not looked at the game but have read Stuge's report, which is not encouraging of our chances. It seems that we need to stop Mehmed from getting too far ahead somehow. I'd rather not rely on either (a.) the bomb, or (b.) spies to save us, but this may be our fall-back.
As I've not looked at the game I am still unsure whether we've done enough to lure Gandhi by placing unprotected Workers on the peninsula south of Bombay. I am aware he didn't go for our Workers near Birka earlier in the game, but if we've yet to do so we should look at that on the "What have we got to lose?" basis. Assuming no lure has been put there, a lot of time has passed since the last attempt and it's in a different place on the map.
I'd invite either more discussion or Remco to play. I may need to defer my turnset because of my RL schedule.
[Edit:] Sorry chaps, I will now need to defer my round until at least next Thursday. Piggy, please amend the roster accordingly - sorry, just bad timing. As noted above, a bit of a review IMHO wouldn't be bad anyway. [/Edit]
remconius
Deity
Had a look at the save. Here are some obvious conclusions.
We are still way too big. Gandhi is still in defense mode and does not dare to come over. Let's take drastic measures and declare on the world.
Yes, everyone. We need to lose cities.
Meanwhile we can continue to whip units in our old lands to build a force and hopefully stay in control of the game.
The only other option we haveis to take over the world and hope Gandhi uses his tiny civ to build the ship...
Having trouble finding a gameslot, wife is claiming me after long workweek.
We are still way too big. Gandhi is still in defense mode and does not dare to come over. Let's take drastic measures and declare on the world.
Yes, everyone. We need to lose cities.
Meanwhile we can continue to whip units in our old lands to build a force and hopefully stay in control of the game.
The only other option we haveis to take over the world and hope Gandhi uses his tiny civ to build the ship...
Having trouble finding a gameslot, wife is claiming me after long workweek.
My vote is to go one of two ways;
from it. I'm guessing that she might have gone in after us with the hope that we'd have decimated Brennus' defenses 
.
In the meantime I would suggest we move some Workers to form a line from the peninsula to the south of Bombay straight into the 'Old World'. Knocking out Caravels also doesn't seem to be achieving anything much. I'd like us to try this lure, as the only other unit that we put there was a Chariot 'half the game ago'.
I think that we have to consolidate our position. I am not a fan of shrinking our empire or our PowerChart rating. We have to be in a position to influence the game or else we'll be watching an Ottoman spaceship fly away, and if not Ottoman - Celtic, Spanish, or Carthaginian. The one strength that we have is our size (and our good diplomatic standing with Mehmed II is very handy right now) - if we give away our size I believe we're completely doomed. We're unable to influence anything with military might at the moment, so we need to either turtle up and/or head for a strategy that will give us tools or critical mass to eradicate any tribes of our choosing.
- Bee-line towards Communism and go for the dual benefits of Scotland Yard and State Property. Along the way we get Liberalism, which gets us out of our 'No Religion' - 'Organised Religion' civic problem. Frustrate Mehmed II with pillaging Spies while we play catch up on the technology front with Nuclear or Conventional weaponry ... or
- Go after the Artillery technology and take out Carthage 'once and for all' with Artillery and Riflemen. Assembly Line seems just miles too far away. With Carthage we might have the resources to stop Mehmed if 'push came to shove'.
from it. I'm guessing that she might have gone in after us with the hope that we'd have decimated Brennus' defenses .In the meantime I would suggest we move some Workers to form a line from the peninsula to the south of Bombay straight into the 'Old World'. Knocking out Caravels also doesn't seem to be achieving anything much. I'd like us to try this lure, as the only other unit that we put there was a Chariot 'half the game ago'.
I think that we have to consolidate our position. I am not a fan of shrinking our empire or our PowerChart rating. We have to be in a position to influence the game or else we'll be watching an Ottoman spaceship fly away, and if not Ottoman - Celtic, Spanish, or Carthaginian. The one strength that we have is our size (and our good diplomatic standing with Mehmed II is very handy right now) - if we give away our size I believe we're completely doomed. We're unable to influence anything with military might at the moment, so we need to either turtle up and/or head for a strategy that will give us tools or critical mass to eradicate any tribes of our choosing.
My vote is to go one of two ways;
- Bee-line towards Communism and go for the dual benefits of Scotland Yard and State Property. Along the way we get Liberalism, which gets us out of our 'No Religion' - 'Organised Religion' civic problem. Frustrate Mehmed II with pillaging Spies while we play catch up on the technology front with Nuclear or Conventional weaponry ... or
I still don't understand the war with Celtia, although we're getting some pluses from the lovely Isabella
- Go after the Artillery technology and take out Carthage 'once and for all' with Artillery and Riflemen. Assembly Line seems just miles too far away. With Carthage we might have the resources to stop Mehmed if 'push came to shove'.
In the meantime I would suggest we move some Workers to form a line from the peninsula to the south of Bombay straight into the 'Old World'. Knocking out Caravels also doesn't seem to be achieving anything much. I'd like us to try this lure, as the only other unit that we put there was a Chariot 'half the game ago'.
I think that we have to consolidate our position. I am not a fan of shrinking our empire or our PowerChart rating. We have to be in a position to influence the game or else we'll be watching an Ottoman spaceship fly away, and if not Ottoman - Celtic, Spanish, or Carthaginian. The one strength that we have is our size (and our good diplomatic standing with Mehmed II is very handy right now) - if we give away our size I believe we're completely doomed. We're unable to influence anything with military might at the moment, so we need to either turtle up and/or head for a strategy that will give us tools or critical mass to eradicate any tribes of our choosing.
2 things:
- I vote for communism and spies
- war against celtia was intended to avoid him declaring on isabella, to weaken him a bit, and lose some units (= lose power). He even took out one city from us
. Of course, I bribed isabella vs him later, when I assumed I had sunk most of his attack force
pigswill
fly (one day)
My argument in favour of shrinking our empire is based on reducing our city maintenance (and concomitant civics costs) to improve our overall financial position so we can research faster and update our armies (and navy) (and airforce eventually) to have a bigger influence on the game.
Also Gandhi may be more inclined to settle empty spaces on the map than try to capture cities so raze/pillage and retreat to Mongolia may be the best chance for Gandhi to expand (and we just wipe out anyone else trying to settle the land we've set aside for Gandhi).
Communism and spies is certainly a good idea partly to stop us getting surprised and partly so we can pick on (and quickly raze) the less defended cities.
Also Gandhi may be more inclined to settle empty spaces on the map than try to capture cities so raze/pillage and retreat to Mongolia may be the best chance for Gandhi to expand (and we just wipe out anyone else trying to settle the land we've set aside for Gandhi).
Communism and spies is certainly a good idea partly to stop us getting surprised and partly so we can pick on (and quickly raze) the less defended cities.
remconius
Deity
Losing cities, does not mean actually getting weaker. I reckon, we'll get stronger. Less maintenance, like the Cap'n says will gives us more science power.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Power rating is important politically/diplomatically in terms of who dogpiles who but has very little to do with combat power. An unpromoted infantry defending an isolated island has the same power rating as a CR3/Amphib infantry outside the enemy's capital but much less influence on the outcome of the game.
I remain unconvinced about the 'power' of losing cities in order to address our commerce issues at this stage of the game, although I also am happy to acknowledge that if we go on the warpath we'll need to look at razing rather than capturing provided Gandhi hasn't invaded 'The Old World'. I think that there are alternative strategies to fixing our economy and scientific predicament than losing cities ... we're a bunch of bright guys , can't we think of something a bit less suicidal? Land = Power!
A few votes for heading to Communism. Do we need Railroad for Machine Guns first, or do we not have the time? Mehmed's almost certainly working on The Apollo Program now.
, can't we think of something a bit less suicidal? Land = Power!A few votes for heading to Communism. Do we need Railroad for Machine Guns first, or do we not have the time? Mehmed's almost certainly working on The Apollo Program now.
I remain unconvinced about the 'power' of losing cities in order to address our commerce issues at this stage of the game, although I also am happy to acknowledge that if we go on the warpath we'll need to look at razing rather than capturing provided Gandhi hasn't invaded 'The Old World'. I think that there are alternative strategies to fixing our economy and scientific predicament than losing cities ... we're a bunch of bright guys
A few votes for heading to Communism. Do we need Railroad for Machine Guns first, or do we not have the time? Mehmed's almost certainly working on The Apollo Program now.
communism now, railroads can wait
pigswill
fly (one day)
There are two seperate issues going on at the moment (three including tech path). The first issue is optimum size for our empire. I think we're overextended and Vinland remains relatively vulnerable. If Gandhi isn't going to invade then Greater Vikingdom (incorporating Mongolia Estates Ltd) gives us enough land to influence the game decisively.
Land is Power of course, but the civ that needs the land ain't us but Gandhi. He's shown little inclination to invade us (one early stackette at gold city early on) despite our various promptings. Perhaps he's afraid of us?
As soon as a space became available in Carthage he settled there promptly; its only happened once so it could be a one off. On the other hand it could be a valid growth option for Gandhi. I would be more than happy for Gandhi to colonise the void formerly known as America/ Carthage/ Ottoman leaving us undisturbed to run interference on the rest.
Communism for scotland yard and spies would be a very good idea. There's a good chance that AIs will pursue artillery/rocketry path so if there's anyone willing to trade with us we could look at alternative tech paths for our benefit and trade material.
Land is Power of course, but the civ that needs the land ain't us but Gandhi. He's shown little inclination to invade us (one early stackette at gold city early on) despite our various promptings. Perhaps he's afraid of us?
As soon as a space became available in Carthage he settled there promptly; its only happened once so it could be a one off. On the other hand it could be a valid growth option for Gandhi. I would be more than happy for Gandhi to colonise the void formerly known as America/ Carthage/ Ottoman leaving us undisturbed to run interference on the rest.
Communism for scotland yard and spies would be a very good idea. There's a good chance that AIs will pursue artillery/rocketry path so if there's anyone willing to trade with us we could look at alternative tech paths for our benefit and trade material.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
If we're worried about Mehmed's level of advancement, it's possibly worth sending a stack of frigates and amphibious raiders to raze his capital.
Given the number of cities an AI has, this will knock them back by a good 30 turns or so in terms of global development.
Note that I haven't had time to check the save - if he already has combustion then scratch that idea as our fleet will be toast.
Given the number of cities an AI has, this will knock them back by a good 30 turns or so in terms of global development.
Note that I haven't had time to check the save - if he already has combustion then scratch that idea as our fleet will be toast.
remconius
Deity
I think that there are alternative strategies to fixing our economy and scientific predicament than losing cities ... we're a bunch of bright guys
This is exactly the catch-22 situation we are in.
Land = Power
Because our land/power are so high, Gandhi won't attack us.
If Gandhi wont attack he won't get to space very fast.
To accomodate his slow SS building, we have to attack others and get even bigger (in absolute or relative terms)
If we do that he will be even less likely to attack.
For safety Gandhi will also try to keep up with us in power terms. This means Gandhi might never get space if he keeps building defenses to be safe from us instead of economic buildings
If we want to get Gandhi to space we have to become less of a threat.
Let's declare on the world and get smaller.
If not, we are doing the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Trying to win instead of lose.
My view is that we have no idea why Gandhi will or won't attack as clearly demonstrated by our game to date, but we do know that we have to examine ways to stop Mehmed et al getting into Space. Gandhi spent a large proportion of the game as the most powerful tribe and miles ahead of us in strength - to what effect? I would recommend that we place some Workers on the peninsula south of Bombay that 'might' lure him towards undefended cities. If it doesn't work - no great loss.
It's my view that we must be able to influence the game without winning. We can't influence anything if we attack now or soon as we're more likely to lose 'The Old World' to the Ottomans while getting smashed in 'The New World' by a dogpile of Hannibal and the Ottomans on us. Attacking the Ottomans with anything other than Spies or Nuclear Weaponry will see us lose the game outright unless we really conslidate our position for a late game war with units such as Bombers and Mech' Infantry.
But I'm happy to go with the group's view?
It's my view that we must be able to influence the game without winning. We can't influence anything if we attack now or soon as we're more likely to lose 'The Old World' to the Ottomans while getting smashed in 'The New World' by a dogpile of Hannibal and the Ottomans on us. Attacking the Ottomans with anything other than Spies or Nuclear Weaponry will see us lose the game outright unless we really conslidate our position for a late game war with units such as Bombers and Mech' Infantry.
But I'm happy to go with the group's view?
After some rest, I have a fresh idea
1) gandhi can capture the shrine city on the other island. Just move away the troops, and lure him there with worker(s). That should work. There is no chance of flippping, since this city was captured from hannibal.
2) After that, we can try to open him a road to ex america. Don't know if he has open borders with hannibal. If he doesn't, let declare on hanni again and offer Gandhi versailles and hadremetum + ex america. We may just as well try to get rid of hannibal and bring a lot of old troops/workers to lure gandhi.
It's not what we had in mind initially but at least there is hope. What do you say?
1) gandhi can capture the shrine city on the other island. Just move away the troops, and lure him there with worker(s). That should work. There is no chance of flippping, since this city was captured from hannibal.
2) After that, we can try to open him a road to ex america. Don't know if he has open borders with hannibal. If he doesn't, let declare on hanni again and offer Gandhi versailles and hadremetum + ex america. We may just as well try to get rid of hannibal and bring a lot of old troops/workers to lure gandhi.
It's not what we had in mind initially but at least there is hope. What do you say?
remconius
Deity
Good idea, if Gandhi doesnt want old vikingland maybe he wants new vikingland and throw in Hannibal's land as well. We'll just move back to our original empire.
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