For my part, I'm fine with smaller turn sets once we get going. Plus it gives the team more chances to analyze the situation; and more input from the team means more learning for me 
SGOTM 05 - Mac Team
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
a_man
no longer a Chieftain
smaller turn sets, no problem
scout around, well im just out voted
but the barb beakers will probally make up for the extra scout time but what about not having a warrior quickly, in one of my test games i haddent went with prodution opting for food and had a city (my only city) captured by a warrior from a rival that was probally just looking around. they do still go for an easy grab
if none eles is i'll take the third turn set
and if we are looking aruond i'd definetly look for a site that would have more hammers esp. if we end up chopping the oracle (we aree aren't we?)
no problem with having another player either
scout around, well im just out voted
but the barb beakers will probally make up for the extra scout time but what about not having a warrior quickly, in one of my test games i haddent went with prodution opting for food and had a city (my only city) captured by a warrior from a rival that was probally just looking around. they do still go for an easy grab
if none eles is i'll take the third turn set
and if we are looking aruond i'd definetly look for a site that would have more hammers esp. if we end up chopping the oracle (we aree aren't we?)
no problem with having another player either
dojoboy
Tsalagi
I hope I'm not spoiling the party, but the authorities have allowed me to join the team. 
.....
I take the silence as...approval? Acceptance? Resignation?
Team Mac, if I got this right, consists of:
peter grimes
dr_s
a_man
Welnic
willpax
-and-
dojoboy
What is the play order? I assume PG is the
?
First build?
First tech?
Subsequent techs? May be dependent on what we scout upon.
.....
I take the silence as...approval? Acceptance? Resignation?
Team Mac, if I got this right, consists of:
peter grimes
dr_s
a_man
Welnic
willpax
-and-
dojoboy
What is the play order? I assume PG is the
?First build?
First tech?
Subsequent techs? May be dependent on what we scout upon.
Then we'll have a good chance at the wooden spoon
Welcome aboard, Dojo
I believe our tech plan is Mining --> BW so that the barbs can spawn axes.
Build order: Warrior --> warrior --> Barracks --> [i forget
]
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
Welcome aboard dojo.
Personally, I never felt like we had settled on a length for the turnset. I was planning to do thirty turns for the first set because there's generally not much to do, but I reserve the right to do a shorter set if the situation warrants. Beyond that, shorter sets are probably better, once the game gets going.
Personally, I never felt like we had settled on a length for the turnset. I was planning to do thirty turns for the first set because there's generally not much to do, but I reserve the right to do a shorter set if the situation warrants. Beyond that, shorter sets are probably better, once the game gets going.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Build order: Warrior --> warrior --> Barracks --> [i forget
In my personal games, I always build a worker first thing. I believe strongly in the exponential benefits from improvements - especially cottages. I would at least plug in a worker sooner. That barracks may not be of much help this early.
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
dojo, have you read some of the earlier discussions? We have to go warrior first because we are at war, and we will lose if an archer shows up before we have defense for the capital. Also, since we don't start with any techs, there is nothing for a worker to do for a long time.
So, I downloaded the save and the latest version of the mod, and I moved the scout. I moved W-W (after much thought! I've never thought so much about how to move the scout at the start.). a_man, moving NW-NW wouldn't expose the two sea tiles that are 2N and N-NW of the settler, so I didn't see the point of doing that. I haven't yet moved the settler, though. Here's a screenshot. I see a few choices:
(1) Settle in place right now. Pros: good food, maybe great food after the sea tiles are revealed. Doesn't waste a turn. Cons: crappy production.
(2) Move settler NW. Pros: exposes most of the hidden sea tiles. Cons: what would be next? Wastes at least one turn. Probably won't increase production.
(3) Settle 1S. Pros: brings in an extra hill (after IW to chop jungle). Cons: 1 tile from coast, loses any seafood to the north.
(4) ????
If I were playing this solo, I'd just settle in place. (a_man will like that!) I would like to have better production, but it seems like we'd really have to wander (and into the jungle!) to find it. Peter, dojo, what do you think?
So, I downloaded the save and the latest version of the mod, and I moved the scout. I moved W-W (after much thought! I've never thought so much about how to move the scout at the start.). a_man, moving NW-NW wouldn't expose the two sea tiles that are 2N and N-NW of the settler, so I didn't see the point of doing that. I haven't yet moved the settler, though. Here's a screenshot. I see a few choices:
(1) Settle in place right now. Pros: good food, maybe great food after the sea tiles are revealed. Doesn't waste a turn. Cons: crappy production.
(2) Move settler NW. Pros: exposes most of the hidden sea tiles. Cons: what would be next? Wastes at least one turn. Probably won't increase production.
(3) Settle 1S. Pros: brings in an extra hill (after IW to chop jungle). Cons: 1 tile from coast, loses any seafood to the north.
(4) ????
If I were playing this solo, I'd just settle in place. (a_man will like that!) I would like to have better production, but it seems like we'd really have to wander (and into the jungle!) to find it. Peter, dojo, what do you think?
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dojoboy
Tsalagi
True, yes. A couple things to think on though:
(1) When we do have a tech that allows for an early game improvement, will we have a worker ready to take advantage of it?
(2) Will the AI appear within the first 30 turns? I haven't read all the test results. What did they show?
Where we start provides the best early production and plenty of food, so I support settling on the start location.
You might want to not settle, just skip the settler and see what the scout discovrs on the next turn. If not promising, settle on second turn. ???
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
The tech sequence we've discussed is: Mi->BW->Myst->Med->Pr->AH. The goal is to get the Oracle to take Monarchy so that we can use HR to combat WW. So, other than chopping, there won't be anything for a worker to do until we get AH. In that case we should be ok with a late worker. We can of course build a workboat early if we have seafood.
I don't know when the AI will show up. Depends on the map. I made some pangea test maps and lost twice before turn 11 because archers showed up that early. (There's one extra AI for this map size.) The other maps I made were fractal, and archers didn't appear as soon, but they did appear pretty early. Of course if we're on our own land mass, that's different, but we might not know that until it's too late. Also, one warrior might not be adequate protection, hence my preference for two warriors to start (unless we figure out early enough that we're safe).
I'm not opposed to building a worker after we build two warriors or one warrior and a workboat, but I think we'll need to see more of the map first. On the other hand, building a worker supresses growth. In my test games, I did some War-War-Worker starts and the worker spent too much time being idle. In some of those games, pillaging by the AI was a real problem, so having an earlier worker was a real waste. Of course, it all depends on the map; I think we're all open to alternatives once we know more.
Re: skipping the settler. We might as well move 1NW as do that, since we could then move back and settle on the second turn, same as staying in place.
I don't know when the AI will show up. Depends on the map. I made some pangea test maps and lost twice before turn 11 because archers showed up that early. (There's one extra AI for this map size.) The other maps I made were fractal, and archers didn't appear as soon, but they did appear pretty early. Of course if we're on our own land mass, that's different, but we might not know that until it's too late. Also, one warrior might not be adequate protection, hence my preference for two warriors to start (unless we figure out early enough that we're safe).
I'm not opposed to building a worker after we build two warriors or one warrior and a workboat, but I think we'll need to see more of the map first. On the other hand, building a worker supresses growth. In my test games, I did some War-War-Worker starts and the worker spent too much time being idle. In some of those games, pillaging by the AI was a real problem, so having an earlier worker was a real waste. Of course, it all depends on the map; I think we're all open to alternatives once we know more.
Re: skipping the settler. We might as well move 1NW as do that, since we could then move back and settle on the second turn, same as staying in place.
a_man
no longer a Chieftain
Yes 2 warriors as a start at least and since the scout can out run an enemy we don't walk right in to. They(war.) can stay to deffend (by the second test game i saw no point in exploring other then near me, the barbs do it)allowing for us to build the barracks wich is only going to help(and if i remember right it is half price for our AGGR. trait)even if it takes a few turns after that to get archery (which it prob. won't) but after all that i guess the only way to go is archer, my mind has been changed but i used to agree with you dojo.
and i think i'm all for moveing the settler to the hill and back next turn it really looks like a penisula (spelling) to me, anyways which is only a better chance for seafood and we get the pigs once we have husbandry if the citys on them also might give more time before we need a worker,not to mention the def. bonus, but less space for improvments.
finally great idea moveing W W as opposed to NW W or whatever wouldn't have helped
and i think i'm all for moveing the settler to the hill and back next turn it really looks like a penisula (spelling) to me, anyways which is only a better chance for seafood and we get the pigs once we have husbandry if the citys on them also might give more time before we need a worker,not to mention the def. bonus, but less space for improvments.
finally great idea moveing W W as opposed to NW W or whatever wouldn't have helped
Would moving the settler onto the pigs hill reveal more tiles than moving 1 NW? If not, moving NW is good. Even if we move back next turn, at least we're doing it with the full knowledge that we're settling in the best possible spot. 1 'wasted' turn is worth that, in this scenario.
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
I uploaded the save to the official progress page at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php. It's saved at the end of the 30th turn.
Here's my report. There's some good news and some bad news. I'll start with the bad news:
(1) No nearby seafood.
(2) We appear to be on our own (not very big) landmass.
So our idea of an early rush of some sort is DOA, unless we discover some winged horses. Now the good news:
(1) A tile next to our capital grew some trees.
(2) There's a second city site that would give us stone, gold, clams.
Okay, so there's not much great news.
Here's what I did. I moved the settler NW because I thought that would reveal the most relevant tiles. On the second turn I moved the scout W-SW, which didn't reveal anything interesting, so I just settled in the original starting location. I started researching Mining and building a warrior. Then I built a second warrior and started on a barracks (this is before I realized we were on our own landmass). The scout and animals explored. When Mining completed, I started on BW; we have 11 turns to completion for this.
I've attached a screenshot of the surrounding region. We're at size 3 right now. We're 12 turns from size 4, and 12 turns from completing the barracks (should we decide to finish it right now). Our scout is at the far western end of our island.
I think we need to rethink our approach a bit. I didn't think we'd be put on our own small island. Wrong! I have some thoughts, but I'll give you all a chance to look at the screenshot and save and think about things a bit.
Here's an edited record of my turns from the autolog file:
Here's my report. There's some good news and some bad news. I'll start with the bad news:
(1) No nearby seafood.
(2) We appear to be on our own (not very big) landmass.
So our idea of an early rush of some sort is DOA, unless we discover some winged horses. Now the good news:
(1) A tile next to our capital grew some trees.
(2) There's a second city site that would give us stone, gold, clams.
Okay, so there's not much great news.
Here's what I did. I moved the settler NW because I thought that would reveal the most relevant tiles. On the second turn I moved the scout W-SW, which didn't reveal anything interesting, so I just settled in the original starting location. I started researching Mining and building a warrior. Then I built a second warrior and started on a barracks (this is before I realized we were on our own landmass). The scout and animals explored. When Mining completed, I started on BW; we have 11 turns to completion for this.
I've attached a screenshot of the surrounding region. We're at size 3 right now. We're 12 turns from size 4, and 12 turns from completing the barracks (should we decide to finish it right now). Our scout is at the far western end of our island.
I think we need to rethink our approach a bit. I didn't think we'd be put on our own small island. Wrong! I have some thoughts, but I'll give you all a chance to look at the screenshot and save and think about things a bit.
Here's an edited record of my turns from the autolog file:
Spoiler :
Attachments
Wow - I really didn't see that coming
Being on our own island is a double edged sword: we don't need to worry about the AI attacking us for a while, but our ability of helping the barbs maintain a strong foggy area for spawning is greatly limited.
I'll get a chance to look at the save in about 8 hours. Until then I won't really have much to think on...
I'm wondering if a beeline to Optics is worth considering?
dojoboy
Tsalagi
We may want to get a worker & settler out soon. Can someone make a dotmap for possible settlement sites? Building the Great Lighthouse seems like a good idea.
a_man
no longer a Chieftain
I'm all for a fast settler and after reserching AH jump to sailing, can't see well enough but there may be a path to mainland to our NE
if not we need to somehow keep our beakers at as close to 100% to get optics even respectably soon then we have to get Astro.
Maybe we should re-consider a cultural win
still think get oracle first but why not lighthouse and collosses esp. if we have nothing to worry about we can just pump out wonders in all citys and maybe that C-win isn't so far off, remember the AI is gonna be busy with barbs (hopefully) well into the AD so maybe?
anyone else thinking that?
if not we need to somehow keep our beakers at as close to 100% to get optics even respectably soon then we have to get Astro.
Maybe we should re-consider a cultural win
still think get oracle first but why not lighthouse and collosses esp. if we have nothing to worry about we can just pump out wonders in all citys and maybe that C-win isn't so far off, remember the AI is gonna be busy with barbs (hopefully) well into the AD so maybe?
anyone else thinking that?
I have very little experience with cultural victories. Or, rather victory. I've only done it once. In that game I was able to take over two AI capitals after they were fairly mature. I had massive commerce, and I was Financial to boot. I managed to spread several religions to my 10 cities, giving me enough temples to install 4 cathedrals. As it was, I didn't get the win until the late 1800's, and this was on Prince.
The goal of this challenge is not simply to get a victory, but to get a victory quicker than all the other teams....
Does anyone have more insight into whether or not cultural is doable here?
The goal of this challenge is not simply to get a victory, but to get a victory quicker than all the other teams....
Does anyone have more insight into whether or not cultural is doable here?
dojoboy
Tsalagi
The goal of this challenge is not simply to get a victory, but to get a victory quicker than all the other teams....
Does anyone have more insight into whether or not cultural is doable here?
Not getting a religion will hurt. But, there may not be many teams trying a cultural victory. Granted, we likely would not be first to win.
dr_s
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 539
I have some experience at Cultural, though I'm not an expert. If we were to go cultural, I would recommend the following wonders: Stonehenge, Pyramids, Colossus, Sistine Chapel. My first cultural victory was on an archipeligo map, in the recent GOTM with Alexander. That was also a Monarch/Epic game. I think it's doable here; once we make peace with some civs, we can get religion. I generally haven't founded many religions in my cultural games, just let them spread to me naturally.
I don't like going for the Great Lighthouse, since we're at war we won't have many foreign trade routes.
I can't believe we're isolated-until-optics isolated. That seems to go against the spirit of this particular game.
Since we have relatively easy access to stone, do we want to think about Stonehenge and/or Pyramids? Pyramids give an alternative way to get HR, and would also allow for Rep. later on. Stonehenge gives +16 culture by itself, IIRC, and also gives culture to all our new cities and any barb cities. The Oracle route is tech heavy, while the Pyramids route is hammer heavy. I had originally thought we would need the hammers for military, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Does it make more sense to go for the Pyramids and use our beakers for worker techs?
Is anyone here a whipping expert? If I understand things correctly, bonuses apply to whipping. That suggests we should whip just before the barracks is done (because we get 100% bonus) and use the overflow for a worker. Then the worker could chop the settler. We should make sure we do this right.
Given our situation, what's our tech path after BW? We had originally planned to do Myst->Med->Pri; is that what we still want to do? If we go for a worker/settler soon, maybe we should do Myst and Masonry next, so we can work the stone. We'd probably also want Wheel, as well. Of course this depends on what wonders we want to go for, so we need to decide that first.
For building, I would continue with the barracks until it's down to fewer than 10 hammers left to build. Then I'd switch to a worker until BW comes in, then I'd switch back to the barracks and whip it for one pop. That should give us (assuming my understanding is correct) a 50 to 55 hammer overflow for the worker. Then finish the worker and start on a settler, chopping the two riverside forests.
I think we should probably fog-bust our island. No point in letting the barbs settle somewhere we'll want a city. Right now both warriors are in the capital, and the scout is heading back there. The scout should probably fogbust the east and one of the warriors should fogbust the clams/stone/gold location.
Here's a quickie dotmap showing four cities. I'm not sure more than four are viable, given the lack of food.
I don't like going for the Great Lighthouse, since we're at war we won't have many foreign trade routes.
I can't believe we're isolated-until-optics isolated. That seems to go against the spirit of this particular game.
Since we have relatively easy access to stone, do we want to think about Stonehenge and/or Pyramids? Pyramids give an alternative way to get HR, and would also allow for Rep. later on. Stonehenge gives +16 culture by itself, IIRC, and also gives culture to all our new cities and any barb cities. The Oracle route is tech heavy, while the Pyramids route is hammer heavy. I had originally thought we would need the hammers for military, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Does it make more sense to go for the Pyramids and use our beakers for worker techs?
Is anyone here a whipping expert? If I understand things correctly, bonuses apply to whipping. That suggests we should whip just before the barracks is done (because we get 100% bonus) and use the overflow for a worker. Then the worker could chop the settler. We should make sure we do this right.
Given our situation, what's our tech path after BW? We had originally planned to do Myst->Med->Pri; is that what we still want to do? If we go for a worker/settler soon, maybe we should do Myst and Masonry next, so we can work the stone. We'd probably also want Wheel, as well. Of course this depends on what wonders we want to go for, so we need to decide that first.
For building, I would continue with the barracks until it's down to fewer than 10 hammers left to build. Then I'd switch to a worker until BW comes in, then I'd switch back to the barracks and whip it for one pop. That should give us (assuming my understanding is correct) a 50 to 55 hammer overflow for the worker. Then finish the worker and start on a settler, chopping the two riverside forests.
I think we should probably fog-bust our island. No point in letting the barbs settle somewhere we'll want a city. Right now both warriors are in the capital, and the scout is heading back there. The scout should probably fogbust the east and one of the warriors should fogbust the clams/stone/gold location.
Here's a quickie dotmap showing four cities. I'm not sure more than four are viable, given the lack of food.
Attachments
a_man
no longer a Chieftain
not an expert, but yes thats how its done.The only down side would be an extra unhappiness for a short time.Only whipping one pop. point dosen't alleviate any happiness problems like it can for 2 or more.
if we were isolated compleatly i think other teams would have a hard time also getting an early vic. I was just thinking cutural would be one we knew was at least winnable before the time limit was up.
or there is an ocean path we can use galleys on and should still plan for conquest (sooner anyway) we'll be able to see the NE island when our borders expand but I think we should send the scout to the far south of the island (on the west) to se if there may be a path from there. it is a custom made map
pyrimids sounds good to me, that would stop the unhappiness problem as well.
We may almost have wheel by the time we get masonry so we could use the beakers somewhere eles.maybe sailing for galleys?100 beakers on normal speed as opposed to wheel only 60 like agg. arch. we get them free pretty soon.
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