SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

My test map was wrong (forest grasslands instead of forest plains). The AI will not work the forest with the correct tiles. This means that we could actually gift both KK and QG

EDIT: and we don't need to settle wb. Both cities will work clam/fish, not -tile

 

[LowtherCastle]

My test map was wrong (forest grasslands instead of forest plains). The AI will not work the forest with the correct tiles. This means that we could actually gift both KK and QG

EDIT: and we don't need to settle wb. Both cities will work clam/fish, not -tile

Did you settle on a plains hill?

 

[Erkon]

Did you settle on a plains hill?

Yes, see attached image

EDIT: city screenshots added

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well doesn't it make sense that if they'd choose a 1 2 coastal, then they're even more likely to take the 2 2?

But we still need the galley. What do you think of DubbulMackan?

 

[Erkon]

Well doesn't it make sense that if they'd choose a 1 2 coastal, then they're even more likely to take the 2 2?

But we still need the galley. What do you think of DubbulMackan?

When I drew that dot-map, I was assuming we would go for calendar. We can't farm the banana, so the city will cap at 4 (or more important, will grow slow after pop-rush). And it only has two resources. I don't think DubbelMackan is very valuable to us short term. I would rather see Bridge Bay as a gift...

We could actually gift KK twice (first to Toku and second to Asoka). The scenario 1 you presented would enable us to build QinGate a few turns after KK is recaptured (it will take two-three turns to exit resistance), so if Asoka will not accept KK, we can gift QG instead. This gives us a bit flexibility.

Still, we need klarius to pass his judgment on the value of KK, QG and Bridge Bay.

 

[klarius]

The plans get more and more complicated and I see it coming that everything gets further delayed. So I'm now for the radical solution:
Pillage the copper this turn and gift Erkopper to Asoka. I really don't see why not Erkopper, if we anyway want to give a top notch city, where we really want to build culture.
Build a semipermanent horsehockey city to drag down Toku, or if he doesn't take it, Isa.
Start to develop normally, take back Erkopper in 10 turns, but leave the other city for now.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What's Bridge Bay again?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I really don't see why not Erkopper, if we anyway want to give a top notch city, where we really want to build culture.

Why not Erkopper? Because 10 turns of Erkopper = obelisk and an almost finished settler and not having to waste valuable worker turns rebuilding a copper mine. Plus, we need to DoP 2 AIs, right? We need roads to Bridge whatever so we can move units there. Then we need to chop jungle hills, etc.

Why not the original 1E of bananas? or even bananas since we can't use them anyway? On Bananas =3 in city with a possible 2 more river grass farms. Toku grows really fast but has no .

 

[Erkon]

What's Bridge Bay again?

1N of rice, the cultural bridge to the west.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1N of rice, the cultural bridge to the west.

That one take 8 turns to settle. Bananas takes 5t. Bananas could easily maintain 3 grass hill mines. How about that? It's located well for cranking out swords and shippling them across the bay.

EDIT: If we're going to use the same city twice, then Bananas is excellent, no , fast growth. Good city for us long-term but we need it for AIs short-term anyway.

 

[Erkon]

The plans get more and more complicated and I see it coming that everything gets further delayed. So I'm now for the radical solution:
Pillage the copper this turn and gift Erkopper to Asoka. I really don't see why not Erkopper, if we anyway want to give a top notch city, where we really want to build culture.
Build a semipermanent horsehockey city to drag down Toku, or if he doesn't take it, Isa.
Start to develop normally, take back Erkopper in 10 turns, but leave the other city for now.

Hey, has the Oktoberfest started earlier this year, klarius! Stay away from the beer! You are perfectly right that we have to avoid delays. Gifting Erkopper will set us back ages (lost production + potentially lost granary) and the delay of our military campaign will cost us more than potentially everlasting war with Mr Toku.

There are three candidates for first-gift-city:

Erkopper
Banana city - west of Erkopper (example 1E of bananas)
Clam city (1N of stone)

Both banana city and clam city can be built in about five turns. As far as I understood, the general consensus is that Toku will get this first city.

The second-gift-city can either be the same city that has been retaken, or a new one (Bridge Bay, Qin Gate or any else). We have plenty of time to gift this city to Asoka (he won't build city#4 for a long while), although the WW from him is damaging. Still, with LC's whip plans, we don't need to worry about the WW the next 15 turns. What is worrying is the increase in WW which represents Asokas increasingly war success. So, klarius, could we end up in a situation where Asoka will not accept Qin Gate or Banana City (in lets say 20 turns)?

 

[klarius]

Why not Erkopper? Because 10 turns of Erkopper = obelisk and an almost finished settler and not having to waste valuable worker turns rebuilding a copper mine.

10 turns later development in QG or KK is also a lot, if we assume we get WW under control. And pillaging copper allows to build warriors for garrison.
For the second city we might just not take the "optimal" site, but e.g the dyes ssw of Erkopper to leave the land for roads.
BTW, if we still think of it, east of bananas will probably not grow at all, it has too much jungle. So this site would really only be there to raze it later.

Another (small) advantage of Erkopper:
We will not get 6 WW points retaking it. It's in the culture boundaries of MW and we will be culture dominant.

 

[Erkon]

klarius, I like your uncompromising style of play, but my brain shutdowns due to suspected corrupted state when I consider your idea. Have to sleep on it... Let my unconsciousness ponder the consequences

 

[klarius]

My priorities:

1. get war weariness below 67%, allowing all cities to work efficiently
2. get war weariness below 67%, allowing all cities to work efficiently
3. get war weariness below 67%, allowing all cities to work efficiently
4. get QG up and running, so we can assist our friends there and maybe nab a wonder or three
5. get a gate west

Not urgent:

• Saladin - crappy land and no issue for WW
• Alex - still only 1 city - might get higher if we can use the culture bridge town to get iron in the desert.

Not working IMO:

• research to get happiness under control - only drama could really do it, HR rule needs too many units at home. Then we are happy, but have no units in the field.
• going for a kill directly - our production stinks at 150% WW, which we will get.
• turtling and building girlie buildings

 

[LowtherCastle]

• None: Cyrus, Alex. DoP
• Virtually none: Sal
• Limited: Qin (land size limits # of barbs at any given time); Isa (native barb city, amount of nearby land limits # of barbs)
• Maybe lots: Toku (not yet limited by land)
• Definitely tons: Asoka (virtually unlimited by land)

Our main problems are Toku and Asoka.

Eliminating the Asoka WW factor helps doubly 1) drastically diminishing existing WW points and 2) eliminating 1 of 2 major sources of new WW points.

Conclusion:

1. DoP w/Asoka could easily give us enough time to get to Toku, do damage and get peace, if need be.
2. DoP with both would be even better, in fact, would be great.
3. To win, we need to have the guts to take risks, such as missing out on DoP with Toku rather than pillaging our copper, and emptying and destroying our granary. That’s what…that's just overly cautious. If we lose because of this choice, it's really because we REXed too slowly up to now, anyway.

My Proposed Strategy
1. Popr settler T0.
Note: Before actually settling, check to see if either Toku or Asoka will still DoP for EK. If it's too late, settle Bay Bridge W.
2a. Low risk, but lame site: Settle 1E of bananas, DoP with 1) Toku, or 2) Asoka.
3a.1. If DoP w/Toku, build 2 more settler asap, per plan, 1 for QG (to gift to Asoka), 1 for Bay Bridge.
3a.2. If DoP w/Asoka, build 1 more settler asap for Bay Bridge, and crank out galley and units for immediate assault on Toku's outlying cities. Send 2 workers with protection asap to build road to Toku.

2b. higher risk, but good site: Settle on bananas, DoP 1) Toku, or 2) Asoka.
3b.1. If DoP w/Toku, build 1 more settler asap for Bay Bridge. Plan assault on The Continent.
3b.2. If DoP w/Asoka, build 1 more settler asap for Bay Bridge. Plan assault on Toku.
3b.3. If neither, reload...

Note: I favor 1b. on bananas site because it grows fast enough to accomodate both AIs in a reasonable amount of time and allows us to go to war w/o the need for QG The question is, will 2 bonus tiles be enough for Toku?

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

We don't have any prerequisites. At our current research rate about 60-70 turns.

I belive that this could be in fact ~35-40 turns if we go to Masonry and try to build Pyramids after ( as long as we could have stone ) or if we try to build Oracle and grab Monarchy as free tech ...

But probably even 35-40 turns is too much - no ?

 

[Erkon]

I've tried to grasp the impossible, and I can't No matter how hard I think, I can't reach the conclusion that gifting Erkopper is a good idea...

I've arrived at these conclusions (after endless hours of non-sleep ):

The same turn we whip Erkopper to size 1, we pillage the copper and road, then re-mine the copper. Then Erkopper work the bananas until it grow. We can then build five warriors, which will save us 5*(37-22) = 75 , which is many more than we loose. This should be compared to max 10 lost from loosing the copper mine.

Regarding gifting cities: I lean towards whipping the settler in MW on T0, then settle on bananas, gift city to toku, then re-declare after 10 turns (when it has grown to size 2: +1 from city + 2 from grass => grow in 10 turns). The only risk I see is that Toku will whip the archer on turn 10. Would the AI do that, klarius?

 

[klarius]

A town on bananas will not grow in 10 turns. It has 12 jungles in the fat cross and will be unhealthy.

The AI doesn't whip before size 3 if I read the code correctly.

 

[Erkon]

I actually count it to 13 (which doesn't really matter). This will result in -6 penalty. Is the health cap for AI on noble less than 6?

 

[klarius]

I actually count it to 13 (which doesn't really matter). This will result in -6 penalty. Is the health cap for AI on noble less than 6?

The health bonus is 3 on noble. There is no fresh water and the civs are not expansive.
Jungle is only 0.25 unhealthy so it's -3. -1 for pop leaves -1 for a max of +2 food.
But there is another thing. I world buildered a bit and the AI did prefer a jungle hill over regular grass for no growth at all.