SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

Poprush Settler in MW on T0!

Scenario 1 gets the 2 settlers out a combined 5t earlier, and EK obelisk 2t earlier; the trade-off is Scenario 2 has its next poprush 6t sooner.

Scenario 1: Poprush Settler1 on T0; popr Settler2 on T16; 1 MW chop; next popr on T31

• MW
  • Settler1 done on T1
  • Galley T15
  • Settler2 T17
• EK
  • Obelisk T5
  • popr on T6
  • Barracks T7
  • whatever...
  
  EDIT: Instead of EK barracks, EK can also produce Settler3 on T17.

Scenario 2: Settler1 natural; popr galley on T10; 1 MW chop; next popr on T25

• MW
  • Settler1 done on T4
  • Galley T11
  • Settler2 T19
• EK
  • popr on T6
  • Obelisk T7
  • Barracks T8
  • whatever...

Notes:

• Both scenarios boast of a glorious amount of MM!!!
• Does not take into account any positive benefits from lower WW after DoP with menace.
• These scenarios are NOT subject to random influences or opinions.

 

[klarius]

DOes pillaging affect an AI's willingness to DoP?

No

Let's not forget that Sal could build a galley and send a settler or an assault force. We don't want GC to get caught with its pants down.

He will never send an assault force. Only if there are spare units stumbling around our borders he will attack. That shouldn't be possible before he has a city on our island.

 

[jesusin]

Hi guys. This is getting a stressful experience. Still reading about klarius turnset, something like post 450. I can't keep up with you. It's fun to read your posts, but I feel bad about not contributing.

If my turnset should be played before I write a post saying "I have read it all", please skip me.

About what I have read so far...
- All that "let's win a fraction of a beaker" MM is confusing me. We have never stopped working our mPiInGe and out copper mine, not for a single turn, have we?
- Why not whipping the settler and then whipping the workboat? Do we prefer 1hammer to 1food? Do we? Same goes for maximizing overflow on first workboat, I could only understand it if we were going to use the clams very soon?????
- Are we prioritizing Drama, Calendar or Monarchy, just in case klarius test game is right and we find a lot of WW?
- Do our friends still keep Persepolis?

I will be glad to read the answer to my questions when my reading reaches this point in the thread... by then you might have already finished the game

 

[klarius]

Hi guys. This is getting a stressful experience. Still reading about klarius turnset, something like post 450. I can't keep up with you. It's fun to read your posts, but I feel bad about not contributing.

If my turnset should be played before I write a post saying "I have read it all", please skip me.

About what I have read so far...
- All that "let's win a fraction of a beaker" MM is confusing me. We have never stopped working our mPiInGe and out copper mine, not for a single turn, have we?
- Why not whipping the settler and then whipping the workboat? Do we prefer 1hammer to 1food? Do we? Same goes for maximizing overflow on first workboat, I could only understand it if we were going to use the clams very soon?????
- Are we prioritizing Drama, Calendar or Monarchy, just in case klarius test game is right and we find a lot of WW?
- Do our friends still keep Persepolis?

I will be glad to read the answer to my questions when my reading reaches this point in the thread... by then you might have already finished the game

Well, jesusin, I would recommend you load the save and look into the state our empire is now, instead of reading old posts.
Our war weariness increased from 67-99% to over 100% in the last turn set. There is no indication that this trend will reverse, though the recently spawned barb city should help a bit.
The techs you mentioned are much to far away to help our current problem. And BTW calendar is no help at all. 1 happy doesn't help much, if you get 2 or more unhappy for every pop point.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

How long will take for us to research Monarchy ? I'm just curious about this ...

Regards

 

[LowtherCastle]

About what I have read so far...
- All that "let's win a fraction of a beaker" MM is confusing me. We have never stopped working our mPiInGe and out copper mine, not for a single turn, have we?
- Why not whipping the settler and then whipping the workboat? Do we prefer 1hammer to 1food? Do we? Same goes for maximizing overflow on first workboat, I could only understand it if we were going to use the clams very soon?????

I'm not sure I understand either of these two questions.

1) Most MM would have to do with how to share and between Murky Waters and Erkopper. Neither the pig mine nor the copper mine can be shared.

2) I agree with whipping the settler (see my previous post) and I don't even know why we're building a workboat, because we're planning to gift our next 1-2 cities so we wouldn't need a workboat. But why would we whip twice in a row? With pop1 we could only work bananas, horses, or pigs.

jesusin, I think if you visited the thread for a few minutes each day, just like you visit the HoF threads, it would be easy to stay up. I understand this is your first SGOTM. We discuss our ideas and try to come up with a good plan. You obviously have a deep interest in cultural deity games. How about taking such an interest in our group endeavor?

EDIT: As far as taking your time to read the entire thread, I have no problem waiting for you. Anyway, Gnejs won't be back until this weekend and BP too.

 

[LowtherCastle]

On Gifting Asoka a City

If we're planning to gift Toku and Asoka each a city, where would we put the second city?

Klarius' Klams is one possibility and would grow to pop2 in 15 turns, presumably.

What about QinGate? It has 3 bonus tiles, so it might be attractive enough to Asoka. With only 1 tile to develop, would his build sequence still be:

The AI build sequence will be archer-worker.

or would he go archer>wb?

And would he work the plains forest and grow to pop in 30 turns or work the seafood and grow in 15t (or some combination)?

It would be neat to capture QinGate back after he built us some nets.

 

[Murky]

There's no hurry jesusin. Take your time. Participation is obviously voluntary but the more people share ideas the better.

 

[Erkon]

Hi guys. This is getting a stressful experience. Still reading about klarius turnset, something like post 450. I can't keep up with you. It's fun to read your posts, but I feel bad about not contributing. - we miss your expertise! Oops, now I add another post to be read

If my turnset should be played before I write a post saying "I have read it all", please skip me. - You don't have to read all posts, only those posted by me

About what I have read so far...
- All that "let's win a fraction of a beaker" MM is confusing me. We have never stopped working our mPiInGe and out copper mine, not for a single turn, have we?
- Why not whipping the settler and then whipping the workboat? Do we prefer 1hammer to 1food? Do we? Same goes for maximizing overflow on first workboat, I could only understand it if we were going to use the clams very soon????? - work boat? Are we building a work boat? WTH???
- Are we prioritizing Drama, Calendar or Monarchy, just in case klarius test game is right and we find a lot of WW? - I would vote on Monarchy if anything
- Do our friends still keep Persepolis? - and they took a chinese city

I will be glad to read the answer to my questions when my reading reaches this point in the thread... by then you might have already finished the game

Most of our discussion is questions/stupid ideas (mainly from LC me )and attempts to analyze current situation. Hopefully you can learn something from them, but the only mandatory reading is turn set reports and turn set proposals. That will give you enough ideas. The MM-stuff is a good way for us to learn more about rules and mechanics.

Quick summary:

We are assuming that we will not need cats. We plan to shut down research after IW. We plan to gift one/two cities to AI for peace, then settle a cultural bridge city, then kill'em! Kill'em all!!!

Finally: I advocate more research, klarius wants us to reduce WW, LC wants us to whip an army, Ioan wants Monarchy, Murky likes action, BP has deserted us and Gnejs have posted once. So, welcome to the team

PS: don't feel bad about not contributing. The whole idea with the SGOTM is to have fun, not to have bad conciousness. Read/play with a smile on your face...

 

[klarius]

How long will take for us to research Monarchy ? I'm just curious about this ...

Regards

We don't have any prerequisites. At our current research rate about 60-70 turns.

On the city gifting:
There is still the question if KK is valuable enough.
I also think 2 settlers for that action is a lot and would rather have the same city gifted twice (or even more often, if afterwards Isa would still take it). If we once get peace we should alternate between peace and war, which should lead to quite a bit pillaging, but a lot less losses for the barbs.
But the problem is that I still don't know how much of our war weariness is coming from Toku and if it really helps to get peace with him first. There were few battles in my turn set, then quite a few units around Tokyo after the next set and these units vanished and several incoming now.
And if we wait, he very probably settles his 4th city. But maybe there's anyway no point because he just does it the next turn.

To the AI build sequence:
It's cast in stone:
First needed defenders, which should be 1 while at peace.
Then a worker, if there is none in the area and no land war and no danger.
Land war means an enemy city in the same area (island). And we don't even count.
Danger means an enemy unit which can attack within 2 turns.
Work boats are quite a bit down in priority. Don't expect the AI to do the obvious right thing.

 

[Erkon]

...
EDIT: As far as taking your time to read the entire thread, I have no problem waiting for you. Anyway, Gnejs won't be back until this weekend and BP too.

LC, I know you would write this! Because if jesusin skips, and since Gnejs is gone, we all know who is up next

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC, I know you would write this! Because if jesusin skips, and since Gnejs is gone, we all know who is up next

Speaking of which, I have just done 72 hours of Excel spreadsheets optimizing builds and determining whether it makes sense to pasture the pigs and I thought I'd link it for your entertainment, but to make sure jesusin looks at it, instead I think I'll cut and paste it in here WIDE SCREEN.

 

[LowtherCastle]

On the city gifting:
There is still the question if KK is valuable enough. I agree. Even worse, it blocks our galleys coming up from GC while the AIs own it. I think QinGate makes a lot of sense. We don't need it now anyway, but we will pretty soon.

I also think 2 settlers for that action is a lot and would rather have the same city gifted twice (or even more often, if afterwards Isa would still take it). This is a brilliant idea. But doesn't the city have to be pop2 to not auto-raze when recaptured? And if the AIs will work the coastal tile rather than the bananas,

the AI prefers to work coast instead of regular grass?

doesn't that mean we have to wait 30t before recapturing and DoP w/Asoka?

But the problem is that I still don't know how much of our war weariness is coming from Toku and if it really helps to get peace with him first. There were few battles in my turn set, then quite a few units around Tokyo after the next set and these units vanished and several incoming now. Don't you think the WW from Toku will just get worse and worse, even w/o Asoka contributing? The only thing to stop it would be Toku REXing like mad, a different nightmare.

And if we wait, he very probably settles his 4th city. Do we really want to take this chance? We can popr settler on T0. But maybe there's anyway no point because he just does it the next turn. And then we just DoP w/Asoka and attack Toku asap.

In the next 17 turns, we can have produced 2 settlers and a galley in MW and the obelisk and a settler in EK. From then on, MW, EK and GC and full-time producing required units. We have solved our main WW problems (assuming we don't miss on Toku or Asoka) and we have future bridges for Qin and the others. IW will be just around the corner and if we opt for Bridge W, it will also soon be producing more units.

Plus, if we Make setttler on T0, we'll know whether we got DoP w/Toku before we even start building the 3rd settler in Ek so we can still cahnge our minds if we can't DoP with Toku.

 

[klarius]

In the next 17 turns, we can have produced 2 settlers and a galley in MW and the obelisk and a settler in EK.

Well, you and I have made already several times plans for producing settlers quickly.
It just seems that it doesn't happen .

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, you and I have made already several times plans for producing settlers quickly.
It just seems that it doesn't happen .

Well, it better happen soon or we're not going anywhere with this game.

 

[Erkon]

I've been thinking about the QinGate-gifting-gambit.

Assuming Toku/Asoka will work the fish, it will take 15 turns to grow to size 2 and 17 turns to build an archer (+2 and +2 per turn). That will give us the necessary window: we have two axes on a galley two tiles away, ready to strike on turn 16. Repeat with next AI.

EDIT: we must of course rely on the AI to have fishing...

EDIT2: I tried this in WB and both saladin and toku would work the forest => archer pop up in 10 turns. This indicates that the AI build at 80% of the cost... And the city grows at 28 (about 85% of the player)

EDIT3: I used a spy to find out that the archer costs 32 => 85% of player cost

 

[klarius]

I've been thinking about the QinGate-gifting-gambit.

Assuming Toku/Asoka will work the fish, it will take 15 turns to grow to size 2 and 17 turns to build an archer (+2 and +2 per turn). That will give us the necessary window: we have two axes on a galley two tiles away, ready to strike on turn 16. Repeat with next AI.

Well, the easiest way to be sure they grow in QG or KK, would be just to build fishing nets before gifting.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I've been thinking about the QinGate-gifting-gambit.

We'd also need a galley...could make settler and galley by T7 + 4t to settle = T11...

Well, the easiest way to be sure they grow in QG or KK, would be just to build fishing nets before gifting.

Tht's a great idea. We ought to be able to handle this for the second settler. Then we could definitely take back the city before he builds the archer.

EDIT: How about Dubbelmackan?

Erkon's first (superior) dot map of western part of starting continent: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5761346&postcount=428

It has some advantages:

• No coastal: Toku is "forced" to work 2 tile.
• Even worse for Toku's economy.
• It could be a good prod city.
• It was Captain Erkon's superior idea, which means it's got to be right though stupid, of course

Disadvantage: only 2 bonus tiles.

 

[Erkon]

Regarding QinGate-gifting-gambit:

The AI will work the fish if the forest is chopped. First build is archer, which is completed two turns after grow to 2, so it is possible to retake without razing the city.

The AI will pay 6-7 from distance maintenance, and another from number-of-cities maintenance.

We will gain 27-33 from recapture (after ~15 turns)

One peculiar thing: Toku was delayed one turn compared to Asoka (i.e. Asoka grew one turn before Toku). The two islands I tested were twins on the same map, and the cities were gifted on the same turn. It was as if Asoka played his turn after me, while Toku already had made his turn.

If we work the forest for five turns (the time it takes to chop it) and build a work boat, the chop will complete it. On turn six we can gift it (send back worker, return with a unit), recapture 15 turns later.

The AI will not get any food that we have invested.

If we are lucky, confucianism will be founded in the city

 

[LowtherCastle]

So now we're talking T11 + 6t for wb = T17 peace w/Asoka. By then, we might as well have conquered him...