SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

If we're going for BW, we should beeline towards it to ensure a 33% axe distribution when the human barbs show up.

@klarius, did you test wrk, warrior, settler with mng, BW? How many idle turn did you get with the wrk? Can we use these idle turns to explor SE? (given that the scout explores SE)

PS: I've update the ToC. Please comment and provide feedback. Anyone know how to copy thumbnails?

 

[Erkon]

You get on your magic carpet and go rescue Gnejs from his wanton life of family misery.

I almost told him we missed him, but then I changed my phrase to "noticed he was absent". Then I told him I was downloading BtS from Steam. Now he's considering a download over his phone (he's not connected to inet) but he hasn't decided yet if it's worth $9000

 

[Big Pig]

PS: I've update the ToC. Please comment and provide feedback. Anyone know how to copy thumbnails?

You should change '????' to '2050AD'

 

[Erkon]

Game mechanics question: It seems to me that culture does not expand onto deep ocean tiles, at least sometimes. Is that true or am I weird? (no, BP, both is not an acceptable answer)

Culture expands to one tile of ocean but not two. Culture can expand to landmass over water if the tile has previously received culture points.

Did you read the post regarding the mechanism of accumulated culture points on tiles and the mechanics of culture bombs? I can't remember the link, but i can search if requested.

 

[Erkon]

You should change '????' to '2050AD'

Hmm, that doesn't match well with our ambition to win a laurel...

 

[klarius]

@klarius, did you test wrk, warrior, settler with mng, BW? How many idle turn did you get with the wrk? Can we use these idle turns to explor SE? (given that the scout explores SE)

10 turns idle, between scout and animals, not much to find in this time.

 

[Big Pig]

10 turns idle, between scout and animals, not much to find in this time.

Also, we have a scout plus barb animals scouting on our island - it will be fully mapped in ~20 turns

 

[klarius]

Also, we have a scout plus barb animals scouting on our island - it will be fully mapped in ~20 turns

Well, yeah, that's the reason that there isn't much to find

 

[Erkon]

How do we know we're on a small island? I mean, send the scout SW (not SE) and ignore the coast to the east. The worker can then move SE for four turns, and then come back. At least that will put the worker to some use.

 

[klarius]

@Erkon, possible there's the odd tile, but the animals should do most. That's 30 turns into the game already when the mine is finished.

BTW, I just thought of a tactic we might consider, if we find a civ doing to good. Probably we will not be able to spare the production, but anyways keep in mind.
We could make peace and give away a weak city to a far away civ. This city should not do more than build 1 archer then 1 worker which already takes very long. All the time it should cost maintenance and we can take it back whenever we see fit.

But this will work only as long as the civs don't have more than 3 cities and we probably cannot spare a settler in this timeframe.

 

[Big Pig]

BTW, I just thought of a tactic we might consider, if we find a civ doing to good. Probably we will not be able to spare the production, but anyways keep in mind.
We could make peace and give away a weak city to a far away civ. This city should not do more than build 1 archer then 1 worker which already takes very long. All the time it should cost maintenance and we can take it back whenever we see fit.

But this will work only as long as the civs don't have more than 3 cities and we probably cannot spare a settler in this timeframe.

Just to clarify, the AI will accept any (crappy) city as a gift if it has only 2 cities - but not if it has 3. Correct?

 

[klarius]

It will accept still at 3 cities, but not 4.

BTW, that could really be a nice boon. If one steals the worker every time, it should always build a new one, as long as one then retreats the troops.

 

[Erkon]

To sum it up (ignoring the long term strategy)

We need to decide on

a) research path
b) production
c) capital site
d) scout movement

For research, we have

a1) mng, BW => good for barbs, good for production (chop), bad for commerce, bad for growth
a2) agr, mng, BW => medium for barbs, good for production, bad for commerce, good for growth (if we farm a river-grassland)
a3) agr, wheel, pottery => bad for barbs, bad for chop, good for commerce, medium for growth

Conclusion: we can choose between barbs, growth, commerce. We can't have it all. Which is most important? If we're lucky, axes will harm one or more AI severely.

For production, we have
b1) wrk
b2) warrior
b3) barracks

I presume wrk is the primary choice. So, what's after worker?
b11) Another wrk
b12) Settler
b13) Warrior
b14) Barracks

Personally, I don't think barracks is really worthwhile at this stage. The warrior is needed eventually, but not in a hurry (unless we have a nearby AI). Another worker is only suitable if we go (a1) and chop the second settler asap. We don't need to decide on second production until we know more about the map though. Should we decide on worker for first production?

For capital site, we have
c1) 1SW => good for commerce (+8 gold => ~1 turn of research)
c2) 1SE => good for production (chop third forest)

For scout movement, we have

d1) follow west coast
d2) follow east coast

I suggest (d1) just in case the island continues to the west.

So, it's research and city site that is the important decision. I feel that (a3) is connected to (c1) => maximize research, and that (a2) + (c2) is good for ourselves while (a1) and (c2) is good for the barbs.

Any comments?

BTW, is the tile 3S of scout a forest?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm still not convinced that a pottery bee-line isn't significantly better than a BW bee-line (because I haven't tested it and I don't trust BP you guys haven't provided concrete data.)

I think the barb gambit is fantastic if it works, but does slowing the AIs down still win us gold, especially if we have to go to Astro?

I think we should consider researching Agri first simply because it delays us having to decide on Pott or BW until we have at least seen our own landmass.

I also like BP's strategy of focusing on tiles, especially if the worker is likely to be idle.

 

[Erkon]

Post 3 updated with AI characteristics. Did I get it right? I thought Cyrus was creative, but's warlords, yes?

 

[klarius]

I think worker first for sure, even if it sits idle. I'm for going back on the original spot. We don't have to lose 8 commerce, only 6. We can work a grass river for 2 turns w/o the worker coming out any later. And the 2 overflow we lose are irrelevant as we anyway have nothing useful to produce then.

We should grow to 2 before starting a settler, but that means working banana. We will not complete anything so hammers invested in a unit would just fade away. So if we want to start a settler right at 3, the hammers should be put into a barracks, though it may be still a while before we complete it. We could also do a warrior and start the settler 3 turns later.

If we do agriculture and mining we should start with agriculture, but switch to mining after we see beakers accumulating there (I assume one more civ will get it). We can then switch back to agri when beakers come in in this tech. Still it doesn't help to complete agri before mining - the irrigation will not come early enough to grow faster.

For tech I think the pottery path delays BW too much. At least, if the map is anything like my map (big connected areas).
I still fancy the BW beeline for the chance of early success by our friends.
But to keep things open maybe we just go agri first and wait for some animal intelligence. Then switch to mining if we think we will go BW early or stay on agri if not.

 

[Erkon]

I had a look at the save. The map has 1081 tiles. That's significantly larger than my archipelago-archipelago test map.

The AI has -3 on relation due to "you declared war on us". Does that mean we'll get further penalties if we re-declare?

The starting island continues to the SE if my eyes do not betray me.

Will the AI get relation penalties with the other AI if they trade with us? If we managed to trade with all of them, they will get upset with each others and not trade tech?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Settling SE is slightly more centrally located too.

We do get more penalties for reDoWing.

Not sure we'll be able to trade with them, other than gifting things. Does gifting cause negmods for trading with worst enemies?

 

[Erkon]

What about going for mining, BW and worker, settler? The worker can then mine the pigs which will then give 2f+3h, yes? That's the same production as the farmed banana + unimproved river tile at size two, so the settler gets out quicker. This will a) utilize our friendly axes and b) utilize our free passage with our first unescorted settler.

 

[klarius]

Gifting worst enemies does cause negative modifiers. But probably (depends on randoms at game creation) only Asoka should be Alex' worst enemy if they know each other. The others should be at least cautious. And we don't care about Alex as he is a lost cause for trading anyway.


Worker settler is not (or at least not much) faster than worker-grow-settler as we then have no pop to rush when BW comes in. And we lose a lot commerce, by not working the banana, delaying BW.