SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Big Pig]

If there is no danger of the barbs settling by the gold hill, then there is slightly less rush to get that 1st settler out. It is probably a mistake to start a settler immediately after the worker, before the pig-mine has been built - working a river tile for the extra commerce for the 6 turns it takes to build the pig mine is probably better. Even better would be to grow to size 3 before starting the settler - slower settler, but quicker 2nd worker and faster research

 

[Big Pig]

I think we need peace with at least 2 of Asoka, Toku, Isa and Cyrus, to allow our barb axes to concentrate on the others. Asoka's capital is on a hill and the surrounding land is mainly jungle and therefore not improvable for a while - it is unlikely the barbs will capture it or do much useful pillaging so he may be a good candidate for peace

As for the isolated AIs (Qin, Saladin and Alex) there is probably less need for peace (altho' a temporary ceacefire until the barbs are at full-strength may work)

Remember the longer you leave it to get peace, the harder it is!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Excellent turnset, BP! Haven't studied the save but it does look like there may be some chances for a non-Astro domination or conquest.

Vwd on the death count. Are you a mortician by profession? I like the dates. That gives us exactly what we need to calculate the WW points, assuming we don't miss too much.

Any dot-maps are tentative right now since we don't know whether we need cultural bridges, but here are 3 first tries. There are more possibilities.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG53130bcMurkyland.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG53130bcklariusDrojf.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SG53130bcDrojfland.JPG

 

[LowtherCastle]

Question: On klarius' test map, are there 2 sources of copper? If not, a freaky thing happened to me yesterday. After BW, and the copper showed up to the left of the river, I "discovered" copper across teh river on the other grass tile! Obviously, I hadn't built a mine there yet.

 

[Big Pig]

Question: On klarius' test map, are there 2 sources of copper? If not, a freaky thing happened to me yesterday. After BW, and the copper showed up to the left of the river, I "discovered" copper across teh river on the other grass tile! Obviously, I hadn't built a mine there yet.

Bizarrely the mountain peak S of MW has copper - but not the grass tile to the R of the tiver

 

[Big Pig]

Any dot-maps are tentative right now since we don't know whether we need cultural bridges, but here are 3 first tries[/URL]

We don't need a bridge for the link to the NE of gold/rice peninsual or to get to Saladin-land. The link to the SE of gold/rice peninsula and to the NW of jungle-land do (unless the AI builds one for us)

 

[LowtherCastle]

Very interesting idea on peace. Maybe we can manipulate the barbs, if just a wee bit... Asoka has a ton of open space to the N. If anything, Isabella looks cramped to me.

Btw, BP, I think you left out a civ on that main landmass. Somewhere between Toku and Alex to the W, I think I can just barely make out a

Spoiler :

Barbarian Uprising!!!​

 

[LowtherCastle]

We don't need a bridge for the link to the NE of gold/rice peninsual

Then the question only remains, how far does Alex' land reach to teh W.

EDIT: Oh, for Alex we need SE..., to the NE may just be an island or something.

Considering we haven't spawned any animals near Alex, he may be on a very small island--bad news, because that might mean we can't reach it culturally.

Spoiler :

This is a test. Please ignore if you are reading this thread. View attachment 173885View attachment 173888View attachment 173889

 

[LowtherCastle]

Spoiler :

Choices up to BW:

12t +1, 00t pigmine = +12, finish warrior, grow to pop3 (=stores up 45)
12t +1, 00t pigmine = +12, +Settler (48 still 8t w/o chop)
06t +1, 06t pigmine = +06, +Settler (66 still 5t w/o chop)
00t +1, 12t pigmine = +00, finish warrior, +18, +Settler (42 still 9t w/o chop)
00t +1, 12t pigmine = +00, +Settler (72 still 4t w/o chop)

Thoughts:
1. 12t to grow to pop3 = 45 for poprush = pop growth still too slow for viable poprushing wkr/settlers, but maybe useful for storing .
2. Settler needs 5t to klarius' Drojf, 7t to BP's Drojf + both cities are a financial burden without wkr or wb.
3. Would it make more sense to build Wkr2 first? (EDIT: No, idiot.) Then he could build road (need wheel) to speed up settler travel and then mine gold or quarry stone (need masonry), or chop faster or farm (need agri) faster, or chop Drojf monument (need myst))
4. Build settler, then wkr2. Send Settler w/wkr1 to mine gold. Wkr2 comes on line when we get agri (?).
5. Risk postponing BW for a few turns to finish agri or fishing?
6. Finish settler w/chop and race off to quarry stone, build SH?

...need...to...see...save...

Bottom line: I need to check the save to see what our research numbers are.

It doesn't make sense to build a settler who'll either sit around or kill our research. Second wkr is dumb w/o something to do. If agri or wb will be soon after BW, then we can plan around that. Otherwise, it makes sense to just store in population.

 

[klarius]

Neither city is a financial burden if handled correctly.
kDrojf can work clams (needs fishing but should be pretty quick by then) it will then generate 3g while costing 1 maintenance.
BPDrojf should take the existing worker along while capital builds a new one. Before the mining is complete it will break even 2 gold - 2 maintenance (no use to grow slowly before culture expansion). After the mining it's a net producer.

Edit:
Bottomlime
Don't delay the freakin' settler

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is my prediction: Asoka's landmass is more than half the land tiles in the game, but not a lot. Close enough that we could reach domination by rapidly taking everything else and getting some with our barb cities...before we lose them to ALex and the gang.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@klarius: Don't we also pay 1 for number of cities cost?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Bottomlime
Don't delay the freakin' settler

klarius hath gespoken.

I'll name the settler "freakin'" and I'll send him to Key West for some Bottomlime Pie...

 

[klarius]

@klarius: Don't we also pay 1 for number of cities cost?

Not for the second city.

 

[Erkon]

This is my prediction: Asoka's landmass is more than half the land tiles in the game, but not a lot. Close enough that we could reach domination by rapidly taking everything else and getting some with our barb cities...before we lose them to ALex and the gang.

Don't speak the word-that-must-not-be-said!!!!!!!

We're talking 600 tiles on our own. :suicide:

 

[klarius]

Well, I think we shouldn't underestimate the big continent.
I count 15 animals, that's at least 15*35 = 525 unowned tiles + 4*21 capitals (ok maybe a few water tiles there ), more than 600 tiles on that continent.
We have 1.2% owning 13 land tiles, so something like 1080 land tiles total (nearly 700 for us to get ). Domination is no go w/o a nice chunk of the big continent.

BTW, thinking about the near future. I think we definitely want agriculture after BW. Pottery is also important. No time to go to mysticism now, so a city location needing culture to get useful should not be settled now. I'm still thinking the clams site gives us the most benefit short term and that that's more important than optimal city placement long term.

 

[LowtherCastle]

• 2950bc ALex Hinduism! Expand those borders, baby!
• 2800bc BW Copper on grass in heartland couple tiles S of our city borders.
• Settler still has a whole bunch of turns because my above calcs idiotically assumed the wkr was already finished, which it wasn't of course.
• Qin settled 2nd city. No one else.

• Fishing 66:beakers: @2/t
• Agri 64:beakers: @3/t
• Hunting 53:beakers: @2/t
• Myst 21:beakers: @1/t
• AH 14:beakers: @2/t
• Wheel 1:beakers: @2/t
• Masonry 0:beakers: @0/t

• Isa 3010 2920 2860 2830 2800
• Toku 3100 3040 2980 2920
• Sal 3070 2920 2860
• Cyrus 3070 2980 2920
• ALex 0 dead
• Asoka njente
• Qin goose egg

 

[klarius]

I think we should complete agriculture now, worker chops one forest in this time (still agri not complete probably, so worker has to wait 1 or 2 turns).
Then complete the rest of fishing and pop-rush when ready to put the overflow in a work boat (even if we don't settle sea food we could send it exploring). Then wheel and pottery.
But where to settle ?
Still think the seafood is best short term.
Another short term good thing would be a city with 0 maintenance. E.g NW of the copper, which has the benefit to share a river tile.
The gold hill would have the problem that it only gives us a benefit if we can send a worker with the settler. I would rather have a nearer city first and have some roads in place.
A city between gold and seafood can work neither in the short term, but it is still cost neutral (or can generate gold if working a regular coast tile). The same applies to west of copper (1 maintenance - 1 or 3 gold).

 

[Erkon]

I think we should complete agriculture now, worker chops one forest in this time (still agri not complete probably, so worker has to wait 1 or 2 turns). Agree
Then complete the rest of fishing and pop-rush when ready to put the overflow in a work boat (even if we don't settle sea food we could send it exploring). Agree Then wheel and pottery.
But where to settle ?
...

I have second thoughts on pottery. If we work the pig mine and the farmed banana to produce workers/settlers, we wont have real use for pottery.

What about agriculture => fishing => wheel => mysticism => pottery
and MW building settler (chop & poprush) => wb => worker => settler

The worker we have roads towards the bronze.

Would it be possible to time mysticism so that Drojf can start SH at once?

I vote for settling Drojf 1N of stone and build stonehenge.

 

[Big Pig]

I think we should complete agriculture now, worker chops one forest in this time (still agri not complete probably, so worker has to wait 1 or 2 turns).
Then complete the rest of fishing and pop-rush when ready to put the overflow in a work boat (even if we don't settle sea food we could send it exploring). Then wheel and pottery.
But where to settle ?
Still think the seafood is best short term.
Another short term good thing would be a city with 0 maintenance. E.g NW of the copper, which has the benefit to share a river tile.
The gold hill would have the problem that it only gives us a benefit if we can send a worker with the settler. I would rather have a nearer city first and have some roads in place.
A city between gold and seafood can work neither in the short term, but it is still cost neutral (or can generate gold if working a regular coast tile). The same applies to west of copper (1 maintenance - 1 or 3 gold).

What are the radii for maintenance payments for the second city? 0G within 3 tiles, 1G within ? tiles etc)
W of the copper fits in better with dot-mapping.
Is S of the gold, N of the rice a viable option? Clearly it will need a worker to go with the settler but it should be self-sufficient (and a net commerce producer) pretty quickly