SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Big Pig]

• Settler still has a whole bunch of turns because my above calcs idiotically assumed the wkr was already finished, which it wasn't of course.

It is probably a mistake to start a settler immediately after the worker, before the pig-mine has been built - working a river tile for the extra commerce for the 6 turns it takes to build the pig mine is probably better. Even better would be to grow to size 3 before starting the settler - slower settler, but quicker 2nd worker and faster research

I'll try to put the important bits of my posts in BOLD SIZE 7 RED CAPITALS IN FUTURE!

Otherwise, well played LC

 

[Big Pig]

I have second thoughts on pottery. If we work the pig mine and the farmed banana to produce workers/settlers, we wont have real use for pottery. To build a granary to allow MW to build those workers and settlers at something faster than 1 every 30 turns?

What about agriculture => fishing => wheel => mysticism => pottery
and MW building settler (chop & poprush) => wb => worker => settler

The worker we have roads towards the bronze. That seems a waste - he would be better used chopping, improving city tiles or even roading towards Drojf

Would it be possible to time mysticism so that Drojf can start SH at once?

I vote for settling Drojf 1N of stone and build stonehenge.

I often find in SGOTMs that SH gets built because it can be built , not because it should be built. Convince me that we need SH rather than building settlers and whipping obelisks at size 2. Remember with all those bananas and dyes (and our happiness problems) we will want Calendar sooner rather than later. And that we need masonry (and ~12 worker turns) to get any benefit from settling Drojf next to the stone......

 

[Erkon]

What are the radii for maintenance payments for the second city? 0G within 3 tiles, 1G within ? tiles etc) I recall a post with this info and I think it was 1G for each 5 tiles, diagonal counted as 1.5. The population was another factor, which we have to count with
W of the copper fits in better with dot-mapping. With 10 jungle in fat cross => health cap of -300
Is S of the gold, N of the rice a viable option? Clearly it will need a worker to go with the settler but it should be self-sufficient (and a net commerce producer) pretty quickly

If we had stonehenge, we can settler 1NE of rice, unless we need a city on the SE coast for bridging the water.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

One question : what do we exactly expect form our secondary city ?

To be a productive one ( as much as this is possbile on actual map ) in order to compensate the poor location of capital ?
To grab a key resource ( copper mainly ) ?
To be a food-rich city ?

Sorry for that questions - but I didn't read something about the clear purpose of that new city.

Regards and sorry for inconvenience.

 

[klarius]

Distance maintenance is dependent on city size. All distance is the usual civ plot distance.
Size 1 up to 4, 9, 13 for 0, 1, 2 gpt.
Size 2 up to 4, 8, 12
Size 3 up to 3, 7, 11

kDrojf is 7 tiles BPDrojf is 11 tiles, east of copper 5, ne of copper 4.

Stonehenge would still be mainly to benefit the barbs (and by that war weariness). Note no WW when fighting where one is cultural dominant. In captured cities the barbs will not be cultural dominant unless they get some culture.

 

[Big Pig]

Stonehenge would still be mainly to benefit the barbs (and by that war weariness). Note no WW when fighting where one is cultural dominant. In captured cities the barbs will not be cultural dominant unless they get some culture.

The 20% cultural defence for the barb cities will help, but the vast majority of barb battles will be in other civs fat crosses or in neutral territory - I don't hold out much hope of SH having more than a negligible impact on our WW

 

[Big Pig]

One question : what do we exactly expect form our secondary city ?

To be a productive one ( as much as this is possbile on actual map ) in order to compensate the poor location of capital ?
To grab a key resource ( copper mainly ) ?
To be a food-rich city ?

Sorry for that questions - but I didn't read something about the clear purpose of that new city.

Regards and sorry for inconvenience.

Very good question and not one we had really discussed. Coomerce-rich would be my preference as our research rate is slower than the other AIs. I'm not sure that there is a great need to grab the copper quickly (except that it will be quite a productive tile, but getting gold early will help our pop cap in MW and all other cities.

 

[klarius]

Building a second city greatly improves the total production of our empire be it more food or more hammer related.
And all cities proposed can increase the commerce in our empire (we can work coast after fishing, then all cities are better than not having a city, though we may invest a little for faster growth).
So that's why I said, don't delay the settler and build a city.
I think the second city shouldn't be a long term project, but get productive fast. So that's the clam site for pop-rush and a few (before masonry) natural hammers or copper site for copper and some forests.
The gold site has the problem that it doesn't help as long as there is no worker. That means we would have to send our worker along on the trail and not work the capital. It will also take very long to connect (another 2 gpt) either by road or sailing.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

I also feel the same - that a city imediately near gold is a priority for us for those reasons.

So - I definately vote for the second city placed near gold-hill and which could ( after cultural expansion ) work stone too ( not necessary for Stonehenge but for some more hammers or, in the best case, for a Pyramids attempt - even I rate the chances for this to be very low ) and sea-food for growing.

Regards

P.S. : BTW - I read some impressive posts about ( very ) early cultural victories. Is this kind of victory definately out-of-our-purposes ?

 

[klarius]

One more thing: A city working the gold is not better than a city working 3 coastal tiles (though we probably don't want to work the city this way).
But the gold city starts producing surplus quite a bit later and we wasted 9 worker turns just to move down there.

 

[Big Pig]

Building a second city greatly improves the total production of our empire be it more food or more hammer related.
And all cities proposed can increase the commerce in our empire (we can work coast after fishing, then all cities are better than not having a city, though we may invest a little for faster growth).
So that's why I said, don't delay the settler and build a city. Working a river tile and growing for 6 turns while the pig mine was being built would have delayed the settler by ~4 turns but caused MW to grow back to size 2 after the settler chop 6 turns earlier, getting the next worker or settler out 6 turns earlier
I think the second city shouldn't be a long term project, but get productive fast. So that's the clam site for pop-rush and a few (before masonry) natural hammers or copper site for copper and some forests.
The gold site has the problem that it doesn't help as long as there is no worker. That means we would have to send our worker along on the trail and not work the capital. It will also take very long to connect (another 2 gpt) either by road or sailing.

The worker could do more use at the gold site than at the capital tho'. If we settle between the gold and the rice the worker can farm the rice and mine the gold giving more food and commerce benefits than he could get farming river tiles in MW. If we get a banana farm built in MW before he leaves then MW can work 2 improved tiles (pigmine and banana farm) - enough to grow from size 1 (after settler whip) to size 2 and build/whip out a second worker

 

[Erkon]

One question : what do we exactly expect form our secondary city ?

To be a productive one ( as much as this is possbile on actual map ) in order to compensate the poor location of capital ?
To grab a key resource ( copper mainly ) ?
To be a food-rich city ?

Sorry for that questions - but I didn't read something about the clear purpose of that new city.

Regards and sorry for inconvenience.

Excellent question, and something we have to resolve before deciding on city location and tech progress.

As I see it, commerce/research is our top priority.

The stone/clam city will pay for itself, but as I see it, is mainly a production city (pop-rushing to size 2).

The rice/gold city will net us extra gold but is not suitable for pop-rushing

The copper city is a pure production city without any prospect of pop-rushing.

What about settling rice/gold first (1N of rice) and send the worker together with the settler?

Meanwhile, we research the wheel and pottery (EDIT: after agriculture). Will the second worker come online when we get pottery? If so, we could build a granary while cottaging the capital...

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

The worker could do more use at the gold site than at the capital tho'.

Good point.

 

[Big Pig]

• Qin settled 2nd city. No one else.

So we need 3 more cities to be settled before barbs appear - hurry up guys!

Gazing at the Power graph, I would guess Misfits and CRC also beelined BW (tho' CRC may have got Agr first) but CFR didn't

 

[klarius]

I don't see why to settle between gold and rice. This will be a drag to our economy, if we work the rice. That's not so important later, but now as we are hurting for every coin .
So if we want a gold city, I would anyway propose to not grow and instead work only the gold (coast before gold is mined). Size 2 gives no benefit at all, size 3 increases maintenance.
So settling next to gold with rice only in the fat cross and only grow after culture expansion and rice irrigated seems better to me.

 

[Big Pig]

Question: How many turns would it take for a size 1 city working the farmed rice (4 pt without irrigation, right?) to grow to size 2 (sorry: not by a Civ PC at present and don't know the figures)

 

[Erkon]

I don't see why to settle between gold and rice. This will be a drag to our economy, if we work the rice. That's not so important later, but now as we are hurting for every coin .
So if we want a gold city, I would anyway propose to not grow and instead work only the gold (coast before gold is mined). Size 2 gives no benefit at all, size 3 increases maintenance.
So settling next to gold with rice only in the fat cross and only grow after culture expansion and rice irrigated seems better to me.

Excellent observation. One option would be to settle on the rice instead, but such a city would probably have too small production...

So, we're back to square one. Which site will actually help us generate most commerce? The clam/stone requires fishing before generating commerce. The gold/rice needs a worker and size two. I'm

 

[Erkon]

Question: How many turns would it take for a size 1 city working the farmed rice (4 pt without irrigation, right?) to grow to size 2 (sorry: not by a Civ PC at present and don't know the figures)

City grow from 1 to 2 at 33 accumulated food. 33/4 => 9 turns

 

[Big Pig]

Ok, so say we build a city between the rice and gold, work a coast tile for 9 turns while the worker farms the rice. This will generate 9 and be commerce neutral - correct? If we then switch to work the rice (while the worker mines the gold) we will grow to size 2 in (33-9)/4 = 6 turns, which loses 12 At size 2 we work rice and gold, generating 7-2 = 5 per turn, so are in net commerce profit by turn 3 after growing and continue generating a healthy +5 per turn to drive research.

When we grow to size 3 we pay extra maintenace - this can either be dealt with by working a 2 coast tile or by whipping 1 pop for a granary, monument, work boats etc. Alternatively we can build workers (rather slowly) at size 2.

 

[Erkon]

Ok, so say we build a city between the rice and gold, work a coast tile for 9 turns while the worker farms the rice. This will generate 9 and be commerce neutral - correct? If we then switch to work the rice (while the worker mines the gold) we will grow to size 2 in (33-9)/4 = 6 turns, which loses 12 At size 2 we work rice and gold, generating 7-2 = 5 per turn, so are in net commerce profit by turn 3 after growing and continue generating a healthy +5 per turn to drive research.

When we grow to size 3 we pay extra maintenace - this can either be dealt with by working a 2 coast tile or by whipping 1 pop for a granary, monument, work boats etc. Alternatively we can build workers (rather slowly) at size 2.

We then need fishing before we settle, so we need to research that after agriculture. What would the timing be? Can we build a workboat in MW after settler? Or shall we go for second worker right away?