SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Big Pig]

Did you anger the RNG somehow ?
There should be 1/3 axes (ok also 1/3 warriors) and we got mostly archers.

Looks pretty straight forward for the next turn set (if nobody has any smart new ideas ).
Capital should grow to 4 after settler, building another work boat and 1 garrison.
Research first 1 turn wheel, then back to fishing to nab another turn of free beakers (feeling greedy ).
Worker finishes irrigation, does another irrigation on a jungle endangered river tile, then probably can start roading.
For clammy Drojf, I think worker first. Further digging in the code has shown that we pay 1g of number cities maintenance, if the second city grows to 2 (the algorithm is pretty obscure).
We want to be at 15 beakers for the pottery research (or do we want now something else first ), so we make max use of 40% prerequisite bonus. 2 river tiles in the capital and the clam should do the trick. But we then need the odd turn at 0 research to pay for the distance maintenance in the second city. That's ok - binary (0% or 100%) science is still better in Vanilla isn't it?

The above all sounds good to me

 

[Big Pig]

What is happening with our diplomacy? We are still at war with everyone???! I guess nobody would accept peace?

For Qin and Saladin this is really no big deal, we can keep warring until we capture a city - but it is very important that we try to get peace with one or two of the AIs on the big continent in order to concentrate our barb forces against the others. We need to check the peace options each turn as the longer war goes on, the more battles the AI will have won and the less likely they will be to accept peace.

 

[klarius]

Re binary research:
It's not always binary which is best. Minimizing the lost fractions may need other percentages, if you have bonuses in both beakers and gold. But as long as you have no bonus on gold, binary can not be worse than any other percentage.
And BTW even in warlords binary may pay off a bit. There are still only full beakers summed from turn to turn. So you can still get the odd beaker

 

[Big Pig]

Capital should grow to 4 after settler, building another work boat and 1 garrison.

Why 4? Are we not better chopping out settler2 at size 2 to get it out quicker?

 

[klarius]

Well, I thought we wanted roads and another work boat.
We should go at least to size 3 for the commerce.

 

[Big Pig]

Well, I thought we wanted roads and another work boat.
We should go at least to size 3 for the commerce.

Agree on size 3 - which gives time for a few roads and most of a wb. I would have thought getting city #3 settled and improved would be our best long-term investment

 

[Erkon]

Did you anger the RNG somehow ?
There should be 1/3 axes (ok also 1/3 warriors) and we got mostly archers.

Looks pretty straight forward for the next turn set (if nobody has any smart new ideas ).
Capital should grow to 4 after settler, building another work boat and 1 garrison.
Research first 1 turn wheel, then back to fishing to nab another turn of free beakers (feeling greedy ).
Worker finishes irrigation, does another irrigation on a jungle endangered river tile, then probably can start roading.
For clammy Drojf, I think worker first. Further digging in the code has shown that we pay 1g of number cities maintenance, if the second city grows to 2 (the algorithm is pretty obscure).
We want to be at 15 beakers for the pottery research (or do we want now something else first ), so we make max use of 40% prerequisite bonus. 2 river tiles in the capital and the clam should do the trick. But we then need the odd turn at 0 research to pay for the distance maintenance in the second city.

Yes, we definitely need another wb to see if we can reach Qin to the NE and check where the land NE of gold leads us. Wheel => pottery is fine.

 

[Erkon]

Is it possible to time roading of the gold to the arrival of the rice/gold settler? The worker then has to leave a couple of turns before the settler is whipped?

What about chopping a second worker before the second settler?

 

[Big Pig]

Is it possible to time roading of the gold to the arrival of the rice/gold settler? The worker then has to leave a couple of turns before the settler is whipped?

What about chopping a second worker before the second settler?

What will wkr 2 do while waiting for settler2? Build cottages and roads I suppose.

I guess we need to analyse the relative merits of a 3rd city site vs faster cottage spam. (Wkr1 will obviously have to accompany the settler to gold site if we go with settler first)

 

[klarius]

I don't want to lose again hammers while building a settler. If we want a work boat, with growing to 3 only, we have to sacrifice commerce and food. Do we want this now?
Or finish it at size 3 delaying start of settler.

I would really rather build roads than chop these forests for a meager 30 hammers each. I also have a general irrational aversion against chopping when I cannot put any improvement on the tile.

The worker I want to build in second town should be enough that we don't need one out of the capital.

BTW, when we go to pop 4 (in the distant future ), we definitely should have a garrison. Our pretty high losses should mean around 20% war weariness already. A few more suicides and we get our first WW red face at size 4.

 

[Erkon]

What will wkr 2 do while waiting for settler2? Build cottages and roads I suppose.

I guess we need to analyse the relative merits of a 3rd city site vs faster cottage spam. (Wkr1 will obviously have to accompany the settler to gold site if we go with settler first)

Hmm, perhaps wrk1 will have enough turns to build two cottages and chop the two forests into the 3rd settler? Then we don't need wrk2 until much later. It's just that I don't really think building roads is an efficient way to use worker turns.

The build queue looks like this:

Settler (ongoing)
WB
WB
Warrior
Settler?

Worker activity:
complete farm
Cottage river/grassland N of jungle
Cottage river/grassland N of mountains
Chop forest 1E of MW
Chop forest 1NW of MW

Does this makes sense? Note that this is not according to klarius suggestion (i.e. this is a (EDIT) not so smart new idea).

If Drojf builds a worker, the worker will then be able to road towards the gold mine instead of sending wrk1 to do that. We then save a lot of turns.

 

[klarius]

Hmm Erkon, cottaging needs pottery, which is still more than 20 turns away.
And I had a worker first already in my plan for the second city, what d'ya think I wanted to do with it .

 

[Erkon]

I don't want to lose again hammers while building a settler. If we want a work boat, with growing to 3 only, we have to sacrifice commerce and food. Do we want this now?
Or finish it at size 3 delaying start of settler.

I would really rather build roads than chop these forests for a meager 30 hammers each. I also have a general irrational aversion against chopping when I cannot put any improvement on the tile.

The worker I want to build in second town should be enough that we don't need one out of the capital.

BTW, when we go to pop 4 (in the distant future ), we definitely should have a garrison. Our pretty high losses should mean around 20% war weariness already. A few more suicides and we get our first WW red face at size 4.

I don't quite follow you here... We all agree to build settler at size 4, yes? So, how many hammers to we accumulate until size 4? Roughly enough to build a warrior if we work cottages/river/grassland. I must have misunderstood your previous post then becouse I thought you suggested building two WB in total. This would be possible if we worker the banana, the pig-mine and one cottage, but then we may not reach 15 bpt...

The 60 hammers will save us 7-8 turns on the settler => 7-8 extra turns of working the gold mine => ~50 gold. The road will save us perhaps two turns => total gain with chop ~40 gold.

 

[Erkon]

Hmm Erkon, cottaging needs pottery, which is still more than 20 turns away.
And I had a worker first already in my plan for the second city, what d'ya think I wanted to do with it .

Doh! You better start playing before I come up with more stupid ideas.

 

[klarius]

I don't quite follow you here... We all agree to build settler at size 4, yes?

No BP did nor agree and on further thinking I agreed with BP that we can move the settler up one pop.

 

[Big Pig]

I would really rather build roads than chop these forests for a meager 30 hammers each. I also have a general irrational aversion against chopping when I cannot put any improvement on the tile.

But it is an investment in 'early' REX....

The worker I want to build in second town should be enough that we don't need one out of the capital.

I hope you haven't stolen Erkon's big idea here

BTW, when we go to pop 4 (in the distant future ), we definitely should have a garrison. Our pretty high losses should mean around 20% war weariness already. A few more suicides and we get our first WW red face at size 4.

So everyone needs to make sure we check for the possibility of peace every turn and follow a coherent diplo plan!!!!

 

[Erkon]

But it is an investment in 'early' REX....

I hope you haven't stolen Erkon's big idea here Very funny, BP! Do I have to remind you all that it is my duty as captain to appear stupid? I have a legacy to live up to
So everyone needs to make sure we check for the possibility of peace every turn and follow a coherent diplo plan!!!!

Yes, please peace

 

[Big Pig]

Yes, please peace

Never thought I'd hear that from Erkon!

 

[Big Pig]

I will be away and w/o internet access for most of the next 11 days. Try not to do anything I wouldn't and make sure we have a coherent plan!

Don't let LC do anything too stupid (D'Oh!! - too late)

BP

 

[klarius]

Well, if you want me to hack my trees and don't build roads, I could just do the queue switching to put the chop into the settler while growing from 2 to 3.
It's vanilla so we don't lose a turn on growth by that.
Then the second forest can be hacked while building the settler.
If we finish with a pop-rush then, we will have used less than 10 turns for the settler and can indeed build a wb before and finish after w/o losing hammers.