SGOTM 05 - Trash Team

[stuge]

I really hope so
Related note : hunting is cheaper than BW, and allow spearmen.
Could someone test if the barbs spawn spearmen with just hunting?

Does it matter? IIRC, barb units (other than animals) start spawning on an inhabited landmass, when the number of cities there is n+1, where n is the number of civs on that landmass. We'll get BW long before any AI settles their second city, and axes are vastly superior to spears in vanilla, what with no chariot attack bonuses vs. axes.

Perhaps hunting as a second tech? We have pigs at the start and hunting allows AH. Speaking of the start, any ideas on how to settle? The area looks a bit poor in production. Should I grab the save, move the scout W-NW and post his findings here?

 

[remconius]

I made a new test game using the mod prepared by Gyathaar especially for this game: HOF-1.74.SGOTM5


Give it a try and report back!
View attachment SGOTM5 Temunjin Test game.Civ4SavedGame

 

[remconius]

Had a look at the starting save. It doesnt seem to provide any more information than the screenshot.

Next steps

1. Let's spend a few days (at least till Monday) playing the test game to clarify if signing peace is better than staying at war and if we can find more advantages/disadavantes from playing with barbs.
   
2. After testing, let's move the scout, post a screenshot and discuss where to settle.
   
3. After settling our capital and some exploration (are we alone? how big is the island?) we can formulate a medium and long term strategy on how to win this game.

Roster (draft)
Below is a proposed roster based on order of appearance in this thread:

Pigswill (30 turns)
Cam_H (25 turns)
Stuge (20 turns)
Remconius (15 Turns)
cabert (15 Turns)
patagonia (15 Turns)

I'll be on holiday from 3-10 August.

If you have any holidays planned in the next months please let us know.

 

[cabert]

Although I have really nothing to object to the method (seems fine) the roster will certainly need adapting (you being away in the period where you most likely should play, cam only able to play on weekends...)
So I simply suggest not being too strict about the roster.

 

[remconius]

Although I have really nothing to object to the method (seems fine) the roster will certainly need adapting (you being away in the period where you most likely should play, cam only able to play on weekends...)
So I simply suggest not being too strict about the roster.

You are right, the list was just a first shot to talk about.

I'll take a similar approach to SGOTM4. Switching and swapping to accomodate all players.

Given my holidays, maybe I should take the first turnset, beginning next week, then Pigswill end of the week and Cam_H in the weekend. Stuge can be before or after Cam depending on the speed and amount of discussion.

Roster (draft2)

Remconius (30 turns)
Pigswill (25 turns)
Cam_H (could be sooner or later depending on when weekend comes, 20 turns)
Stuge (15 Turns)
cabert (15 Turns)
patagonia (15 Turns)

 

[stuge]

The test save won't load for me. First it says "mods/HOF1.74SGOTM5 is an invalid directory, ignoring." Then it wants to load the mod later and then ignores it.

I've got the HOF mod 1.74 installed so I'm a bit now.

EDIT- Screw this. Apparently there isn't a Firaxis games/Civ 4 directory anywhere on my comp now. Still
the game loads and plays just fine. Clearly a severe case of "to be or not to be" existencial angst. Daddy doctor proposes re-installation while holding a big hammer. (For encouragement purposes only.)

 

[remconius]

Stuge,

You have to copy this mod to your mods folder: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/HOF-1.74.SGOTM5.zip

The mods folder is usually under c:\program files\firaxis\civilization 4\mods

The previous test game should also work.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks again for the test game.

I had some 'technology troubles' - firstly with DirectX (needed latest) and then fluffing around with where to extract the mod files, but got there eventually!

Played a very careless game up to 500BC just to get a feel for it.

Remco's right in that diplomacy is difficult - I gifted Alex a resource, while also had a resource trade with Asoka going, and got no positive modifiers for either the gift or trade. The Barb's were pretty useless - they auto-razed the only city that was captured, while providing two low level tech's.

At first impression, I can only see Bronze Working + Sailing bee-lines, with a view to a huge number of Galleys and Axes razing enemy cities until we can self-research the expansionary technologies. I'd be prepared to look at chopping out The Pyramids if we think that we can beat Qin.

 

[remconius]

I can see this game taking two general paths.

1. Trying to avoid barbarian troubles and hoping they will be gone as soon as possible. In a regular game the barbarians stop being a threat after most of the world has been colonized. We'd just play our own game and try to win as soon as possible. This would involve staying at war and relying on the AI to kill barbarians.

OR

2. Trying to leverage the barbarian advantages as much as possible. Especially if they make trading difficult. Two low level techs in the early game, might turn into more useful techs in the later game. A few axes can do some damage, but what if we equip them with maces and grenadiers. This means protecting the barbarians, with extra defenses and workers to help growth, even culture to grow borders. The barbs can keep giving us free technologies. Two low level techs in the early game, might turn into more and more useful techs in the later game. It basically acts like the internet filling gaps in the tech tree.

My preference goes out to option 2, especially because winning normally is difficult with non-trading AI. I also feel barbarian bonuses can be a great advantage if they get out of the classical age.

SOME IDEAS ABOUT HELPING THE BARBARIANS:
1. Focus on military techs to give barbarians better units than the AI, Axes, macemen and grenadiers.

2. Signing peace to increase number of barbarian units. Then declaring war in an area where the AI is weak and barbarians are strong

3. Supporting barbarian cities. When the barbarians get/found a city we should send defense units and workers over to assist growth, maybe even a missionary for culture.

4. Getting the barbarians more cities. Send an attack force to the AI and weaken the defenses to one (preferably wounded) unit. The timing needs to be just right so that the barbs can take over the city before defenses are restored. This also saves us maintenance and gives barbarians a stronger base to build units.

 

[cabert]

Did you notice that we start the game with the wheel? giving the barbs all it takes to build chariots... Did someone actually see barb chariots already?

IF I manage to run a test game I'll try the following approach :
- let the barbs do the early exploration
- beeline to BW
- beeline to HBR
- go a conquering
- no peace with the neighbours (kill kill kill)
- peace/cease fires with the far away AIs if the barbs settle cities next to them

 

[remconius]

I havent seen any barbarian chariots... Do they only do non-mounted units?

Curious to see the results from your test game.

 

[patagonia]

Assuming this is a "normal" game:

Barbs can spawn warriors, archers, axes, swords, horse archers...

In "normal" games, they never spawn chariots. As far as I know, barb spears only come from barb cities too, although I may be wrong on that because I've never, ever seen a barb spear.

Do barb cities have any resource requirements when it comes to unit production? If so, does teaming mean they'll have access to any resource we do? In ordinary games, I've only seen their cities build archers/longbows and workers.

 

[remconius]

Barbarians dont have resource requirements. When they get BW they spawn axes. I am not sure about city production....

They do seem to get free upgrades upgrading all archers instantly to longbows.

Let's see in the test game.

 

[pigswill]

Can't get the game to work at all.
I've just installed bts.
Then I saved mod in mods folder as directed above.
Then I loaded Gyathaar's test game.

Then started with 'invalid directory'
Then it said it needed the mod.
Then the screen blued out.

'Progress' Report.
Unzipped the mod in the mods folder.
Opened Gyathaar's test game.
Got a runtime error (twice).

Progress report (with fcc on top)
Removed/reinstalled vanilla
uploaded patch 1.74 from in game update
reinstalled mod
game ran!

 

[Cam_H]

Still batting for the 'Barbarians are a distraction' position

I hate being the Devil's advocate , but I'm still backing what Remco describes as option "1".

It's struck me as an island hopping always-at-war type game. Because of the archipeligo-type map, getting The Great Lighthouse (albeit good trade routes are going to be hard to come by - maybe there's a 'denying the AI of this WoW benefit'?) and The Colossus will be very desirable, while pinning down who has The Pyramids is simple enough because we have contact with everyone and can check their civics. We can leverage the fact that the AI does not play vanilla archipeligo maps especially well from a military perspective, so we can go and cherry-pick which Wonder or Holy cities to plunder relatively easily as they're typically coastal cities.

In my experience in two games played into the Classical Age, the Barbarians have not founded a single city, and have been easily picked off. They tend to sit on 'goodie huts', but didn't see them found a city. I suspect this is the mechanic that's causing this - but I could have just been unlucky .

The one good thing about them is that they do accumulate significant research points towards some useful basic technologies, so it's not unfeasible to let them half-research a technology, and then we come in and finish it off for them. Mongolia more often than not would still pursue its bee-lines.

No Barbarian Chariots appeared in my games - just Wildlife, Warriors, Axes, Archers and Swords.

My gut feel to date is that we should enjoy what benefits they provide us such as good geographic intelligence and technology partnerships, but really what Mongolia should focus on is Galley-and-Axe style coastal invasions - and if its WoWs we're after, there's just Qin Shi Huang to be mindful of as the single Industrious leader.

... but I'm easily swayed!

 

[remconius]

Good job, Pigswill, everyone seems to have problems with this mod and update.

@Cam: I am afraid you are right about option 1, but I havent finished testing.

Some things I have found in my test game so far:
-Barbarians help research and give free techs.
-As soon as I discovered sailing, the barbs popped 4 galleys.
-I have seen barbarian chariots and horse archers. I get the feeling the barbarian work on a replacement basis. If none die, no new ones appear, if warrior
-Keshiks really rule in early rushing. Given also the pigs maybe we should go animal husbandry and HBR. Before or after BW.
-I tried to give the barbarians a city. It was tough.
-Barbarian warriors and archers are useless at taking a city. If you leave one weakened defender, first the AI moves, healing/promoting the defender before the barbarian attacks. Warriors and archers dont stand a chance.
-I succeeded in getting them a city when he appeared with swordsman.
-We cant gift the barbarians units, but we can cultivate their land. We can also spread religion to give them culture.

I am still trying to find out if granting them a small civ (3-4 cities) and cultivating their land will be a strategic advantage.

Currently I think in the early game option 1 will prevail, amybe in the later game option 2 might be helpful. As said this is to be tested.

 

[stuge]

Warning: Long-term musings ahead.

I've been thinking about our pursuit of victory. Domination and conquest are certainly the speediest options, but they both have some issues.

Archipelago maps tend to lead to horrible amounts of distance maintenance, making that 66% limit nigh unreachable prior to state property. And if we get that far in the tech tree, we're doing something wrong.

Conquest would involve naval logistics comparable to a rectal probe, especially when the war is going on on the other side of the world from our core.

So here's my matermind scheme: Barb domination!

Assuming that 66% of the land is reachable with galleys, we could let the barbs do the land-grab for us. We exterminate the AI from an island and create a "reservate" there, allowing barb cities to pop up. Then we gift settlers to the barbs to let them colonise the land. All we have to do is to maintain a garrison on the island in case of an AI landing. This way we could achieve domination without all the economic burdens.

What do you think? Am I completely over my head here? I'm going to be busy fixing my bike this afternoon but I'm going to get that test game working tonight and try this out.

EDIT- Just read Remco's post. Dammit! We can't gift the barbs units? Gah, there goes all of ten minutes' worth of lazy thinking.

 

[pigswill]

So barbs can pop galleys but not mounted units. Might make sailing a priority; maybe even yet another astronomy beeline.
Forbidden palace should certainly help with distance maintenance.
Barbs pick up research points for well known techs so should follow AI tech paths (albeit slightly slower).
Early expansion should be easy for us without having to defend ourselves vs animals and barbs.
Think I'll run a test game looking at initial rex and cottage spamming while keeping everyone at war with us.

 

[remconius]

They do spam mounted units...

Not sure how the max number of barbarians on the map is calculated. But it seems if a warrior dies, they spawn a new unit which can be anything....

 

[cabert]

I played 2 test games, once going straight to BW then IW, the other going straight to the wheel then AH.
Never saw a barb chariot in either of them, but swordsmen in the IW game.
I saw a lot of barb galleys in both game after I had researched sailing. I teched to construction, but never saw a barb catapult.

Here is what I feel is best :
- BW first, then going for the wheel if we have bronze
- sailing asap after that
- warrior first for city happiness and growth, then workers and settlers