SGOTM 06 - Geezers

[AgedOne]

ahoy there!

markh has graciously told me I may rejoin Geezers for the next SGOTM(Gypsy Kings, while fun, requires more time than I have available)

Hey, Thrallia! Good to see you back. I seem to remember you were just disappearing off as I was arriving.

You really seem to have gone off at a pace. I'm not sure the idea was to finish the game . We were going to compare ideas on tackling the early stages of a few games. Nothing to stop you taking it further, of course...

If someone will tell me how, I will upload the saves.

That's weird. I was going to say that you should use the attachments icon above the advanced reply panel . . . but it seems to have vanished!! Maybe something to do with the forum being offline for the last couple of hours.
(Edit: yes it was - see this message here)

Anyway, when it works again I would upload my save via the attachment gadget or via the easy upload system, and then put a link to them in a post.

 

[Thrallia]

the easy upload system was disabled because of that forum attack that happened a few weeks ago...someone used it to upload a virus to the forum database, and then used that to delete every single mod that had been uploaded.

A lot of them were restored via a backup, but because of that attack, easy upload is no longer an option

As for my game, well, playing those 200 turns took me less than 2 hours...it seems that I should have stopped around turn 133 though, when I had 5 cities and a bunch of wonders(still hadn't met Charlemagne though...)

 

[Harbourboy]

Good to see you Thrallia. Hope you picked up some good ideas from the Gypsy Kings, because they caned us in that last game.

 

[erikthecelt]

Well markh, what do you think? Very different games going here.

 

[Thrallia]

I think I was the only one to go fishing first or go for masonry before BW.

I decided to do that because I realized I could go fishing and mining first before my worker would finish, and that would allow me to work a sea tile that would give extra commerce earlier(although I forgot to do so), and I went Masonry because I had not yet met anyone, so early copper wasn't a necessity as long as I knew where it was before my settler was finished(which I did), and it allowed me to get the stone hooked up early for a high production tile.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Skimming through the reports it looks as though everyone had/would have at least one wonder built by turn 130 or so. Some like mark or AgedOne had two built or were well on the way to getting two built. I actually had a quick go at the save and had two cities built, about 5 or 6 vultures trained and Oracle due in 10 turns or so by turn 100.

It seems clear that it is feasible to go for Oracle/Pyramids and have at least two cities up and running.

OTOH I think the start position was too good. I didn't actually research Masonry as it would have made the Uruk even stronger than it already was. I agree that disabling tribal villages is more realistic as Gyathaar routinely removes them from anywhere near the SGOTM start position. I didn't pop any techs but I did get a couple of scouts, ditto maps as well as some gold. Izzy, Charlie and Shaka being so far away also helped.

 

[markh]

Well, I regenerated the map various times until I got this position. Many options. What I miss is the overall strategy from all of you. Nobody posted a longterm goal. It seems everybody just played it. I would like to hear the plans you have with the options you have.

 

[markh]

I didn't actually research Masonry as it would have made the Uruk even stronger than it already was. I agree that disabling tribal villages is more realistic as Gyathaar routinely removes them from anywhere near the SGOTM start position. I didn't pop any techs but I did get a couple of scouts, ditto maps as well as some gold. Izzy, Charlie and Shaka being so far away also helped.

Why ? You should use any advantage you can get. It is monarch, so the AI gets some advantages over you.

 

[erikthecelt]

My strategy was REX with a plan to cut off the largest part of the continent from the AI. That's why I had 4 cities up and running by turn 100 and was building the mids for the extra happies. I had Charlie lined up to be my tech partner. I had not settled on a victory condition. Any of the VC except the AP would work for me. I suck at AP, can't seem to figure that one out.

As a rule I don't bother with the Oracle unless I'm going for the CS sling, I would rather have an extra 2 cities and trade for the tech that came from the Oracle. My capital will have a mix of scientist/engineers for GP. So I can bulb Astro.

@Sam - Wonder building is a lot easier in BTS, the AI is slower to start wonders.

 

[AgedOne]

I did start by reviewing the game parameters, and made a few notes about Gilgamesh's traits. However, there was nothing strong enough to influence my whole approach to the game.

I did feel quite strongly influenced by the good start location, plus the stone, of course, which prompted me to aim for the Gt Wall and/or Pyramids.

I decided that my overall strategy with regard to my neighbours should wait until I found out who was around, and where they were.

However, that's where things went downhill. I never picked this line of thought up again and - as you said - just played the game.

I did think carefully about strategic ideas such as the location from my second city - as you can see from my attached maps. This is actually something I do spend time on in (say) GOTMs.

However, it's quite clear to me that I had some awful lapses in concentration, and completely forgot things more than once. I really need to use some notepad and reminder system. I had a document open to write my game notes while I played, but didn't use it to remind myself what I was up to!

I think the lack of an overall strategy was very evident in my game.

I made short-term strategies, like which wonders to build and some tactics on how to build them in some sort of optimum fashion. But I never made the concious decision to re-evaluate my overall strategy once I knew my neighbours, and knew they were far away.

 

[Thrallia]

I had decided, when I hadn't met anyone yet by turn 25 that I would play more of a builder style game and work on a diplo victory(big surprise, since that's where I seem to always aim outside of the HOF) I focused on the Great Wall since I had stone, so I wouldn't need to prioritize military, and for a possible bonus to espionage later on. I focused on Pyramids because I always love to have Pyramids(, early happiness, early bonuses to specialists, or increased military production are always helpful), and for the GE points. I rarely go for the Oracle unless I'm a spiritual civ, as I find the detour takes more beakers and turns than it is worth.

I also cared less about copper because of the fact that I hadn't met anyone yet meant copper wasn't as important, what with my having built the Great Wall.

By turn 225, my decisions regarding the Great Wall and Pyramids had paid off...I was able to revolt to Police State when I was in war, and had gotten 2 Great Spies...one building Scotland Yard and the other settling, giving me a total of 50 EP I was able to channel into Shaka. I still sucked at war, but I could see everything Shaka did, in every city, including what he built, what his infrastructure was in every city, and how much culture/science/commerce each city was producing.

My diplo attempt was also on path...I had Izzy and Charlemagne pleased with me, and Shaka was pleased with me once I ended the war we had.

 

[AgedOne]

...I could see everything Shaka did, in every city, including what he built, what his infrastructure was in every city, and how much culture/science/commerce each city was producing.

I hadn't tried getting Gt Spies until very recently - but now I love them! The benefit to a warmongering approach shouldn't be overlooked, too. You can see exactly how many and what types of defenders are in all of your enemy's cities
On a slight downside, you can't see units outside of cities, and you don't seem to be able to see new cities that he builds or captures (which is a little strange).

 

[Sam_Yeager]

What I miss is the overall strategy from all of you. Nobody posted a longterm goal. It seems everybody just played it. I would like to hear the plans you have with the options you have.

IIRC your post with save suggested that we play a comparitive start. I don't think it was that clear that we were supposed to post a longterm goal. OTOH I must admit I did jump in and play so I may have missed the post that mentioned that.

Why ? You should use any advantage you can get. It is monarch, so the AI gets some advantages over you.

Mainly because my view was that it would give me a false view of how well I was doing since Gyathaar would be unlikely to be that generous. Another reason was that I was doing fairly well on the production front with Masonry and there were other techs I wanted first.

 

[erikthecelt]

I suppose the other reason for not posting a long term goal was because we were only playing 50 - 100 moves, so the focus for me was more on how do I most efficiently use that time.

I think I was the only one to not go with fishing early. I did that because the irrigated corn was going to power my growth to the happy cap and I did not want to spend early hammers on a WB.

I think I am the only one to have 4 cities as well and the only one that had Alpha by turn 100. Obviously I am out of step with the rest of you. I only play Emporer these days, so my bias is towards an early Alpha in order to stay even on tech.

 

[Harbourboy]

But are Great Spies worth the opportunity cost of bulbing something important from a Great Scientist?

 

[erikthecelt]

But are Great Spies worth the opportunity cost of bulbing something important from a Great Scientist?

A settled GS can be used to steal techs as well as the other things. I personally do not bulb much with GP, I usually prefer to use them for GA's. corporations or settle them in the capital to leverage the Buraucracy bonus.

I don't use spies much, something I have to trial still in BTS games.

 

[markh]

I did not phrased well what I meant with overall strategy. I usually set my longterm goal within the first 50 - 100 turns, so this would have been my interest to see. How or whether you achieve it is a different question.

My thoughts were :

Sumeria starts with agriculture and wheel, wheat is at the starting position.

Special unit comes with BW. That is ok in case I have to go to war.
Special building is a cheap courthouse coming with priesthood. This would fit nicely if I want to build wonders.

I will scout a bit and see whether I have a near neighbour. If so I will evaluate whether I will be able to found 6 - 8 cities peacefully.

In the end I decided to expand and build some wonders as I met the first AI around turn 50. AIs that far away are not worth being rushed except you already decided to play a conquest game. There is enough room for me to expand. This leaves me with plenty options regarding the victory conditions, so my "longterm" goal is to set up an empire with 6 - 8 cities.

@erik : I did not research fishing until very much later, too. I was a little unlucky with early slave revolts in Uruk, otherwise I would have settled my third city within the first 100 turns. IIRC I had a 5 turn revolt in Uruk and some more later on.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Looking over the last set of posts it seems as though the majority of the team have little experience with Great Spies so that seems like a suitable area for team members to develop some expertise.

It seems fairly clear that Gyathaar would like the next game to be BTS unless the next patch is quite a few months away.

 

[erikthecelt]

Perhaps we should work on conquest and building an early wonder as well.

 

[Harbourboy]

We should also work on Great People generally. The other teams always know exactly when they're going to what Great Person and exactly what they are going to do with them, including knowing what techs to avoid to ensure bulbing the appropriate crucial tech / rushing the crucial wonder at precisely the right time.